The Writing Was on the Wall

[Officer of Engineers]

Sir, I believe you could go tit for tat all day long with statements like that.

The point is that there are Israelis who killed their own to stop peace and they are not insignificant nor the lesser ot two evils.

[Parihaka]

His grave needs to be guarded by soldiers to prevent desecration. How conveniently his service on the battlefield is forgotten.

Rabin is considered a traitor by some for making peace (!)
.

As can be seen from his last Speech to the Knesset, Rabin was to the right of Netanyahu.

We view the permanent solution in the framework of State of Israel which will include most of the area of the Land of Israel as it was under the rule of the British Mandate, and alongside it a Palestinian entity which will be a home to most of the Palestinian residents living in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.

We would like this to be an entity which is less than a state, and which will independently run the lives of the Palestinians under its authority. The borders of the State of Israel, during the permanent solution, will be beyond the lines which existed before the Six Day War. We will not return to the 4 June 1967 lines.

And these are the main changes, not all of them, which we envision and want in the permanent solution:

A. First and foremost, united Jerusalem, which will include both Ma’ale Adumim and Givat Ze’ev — as the capital of Israel, under Israeli sovereignty, while preserving the rights of the members of the other faiths, Christianity and Islam, to freedom of access and freedom of worship in their holy places, according to the customs of their faiths.

B. The security border of the State of Israel will be located in the Jordan Valley, in the broadest meaning of that term.

C. Changes which will include the addition of Gush Etzion, Efrat, Beitar and other communities, most of which are in the area east of what was the “Green Line,” prior to the Six Day War.

D. The establishment of blocs of settlements in Judea and Samaria, like the one in Gush Katif.

Rabin was a peacemaker for demanding more from the Palestinians than Netanyahu has, Netanyahu is an evil right winger and Palestinian hater for conceding more than Rabin did.

[Parihaka]

The assassination of Rabin did not prevent peace. Both Olmert and Barak offered division of Jerusalem, Sharon closed Gush Katif. Palestinian and world demands simply increased, and Palestinian and world attacks on israel grew.

[Parihaka]

This is considered the definitive read on the most recent peace negotiations.
How the Israel-Palestine Peace Deal Died | New Republic
Compare and contrast with Rabins speech above. each time israel accepts an American proposition for peace, which of course is then refuted by the Palestinians, the next round of peace talks assume isreals previous concessions as default.

[Firestorm]

Israel fired more shells and dropped more bombs than Hamas fired rockets.

As opposed to the US which used exactly the same number of bombs/rockets/bullets as their adversary in Vietnam, Iraq, Kosovo, Iraq Again, Afghanistan, Libya and now Syria?

I picked out this argument because it has been made again and again, but only in Israel's case. Apparently, Israel is faulted for not abiding by this ridiculous rule, which no other country in the world abides by anyway, least of all your own zraver, especially when they are off bombing countries halfway around the world, over whom you enjoy a "military overmatch, rarely seen before".

[zraver]

As opposed to the US which used exactly the same number of bombs/rockets/bullets as their adversary in Vietnam, Iraq, Kosovo, Iraq Again, Afghanistan, Libya and now Syria?

I picked out this argument because it has been made again and again, but only in Israel's case. Apparently, Israel is faulted for not abiding by this ridiculous rule, which no other country in the world abides by anyway, least of all your own zraver, especially when they are off bombing countries halfway around the world, over whom you enjoy a "military overmatch, rarely seen before".

The US isn't making the claim it only responds to force with force.

[Double Edge]

This is considered the definitive read on the most recent peace negotiations.
How the Israel-Palestine Peace Deal Died | New Republic
Compare and contrast with Rabins speech above. each time israel accepts an American proposition for peace, which of course is then refuted by the Palestinians, the next round of peace talks assume isreals previous concessions as default.

Interesting fly-on-thewall perspective. Was wondering where all the direct quotes came from and its mentioned at the end they interviewed over a 100 people for that article. Quite a feat.

According to the article Abbas felt if the Israelis could not deliver the last tranche of prisoners then it was doubtful whether they could handle concessions on Jerusalem. This is neither her nor there. Both leaders enter into these deals hoping to look better at the end. If doubts arise then they start to bail out. Abbas being the weaker of the two politically with his people felt the heat sooner. Have to feel sorry for Kerry, this is one hard nut to crack. It does make me wonder whether the clock has indeed run out as Kerry asserted going into the peace process.

In any case the Pals got 78 prisoners freed and the Israelis got their 2000 settlement units. I don't get the problem about previous round of concessions being used, depending on the context that should be expected.

As far as comparing Rabin with Bibi, i'm not saying anything about how right or not Bibi is. Rabin btw came from a center left party. He's a hawk but not to the extent of Begin. Bibi is maybe to the left of his current coalition. Wonder whether there will be polls in Israel before his term is up. See this earlier article from the same author about why Bibi could just about pull it off.

Rabin is remembered for his speech at the white house lawn in '93 at the conclusion of Oslo accords. The speech you quoted came from '96 so things must have changed since and so i assume he was playing politics.

[Parihaka]

In any case the Pals got 78 prisoners freed and the Israelis got their 2000 settlement units.

They didn't get their settlement units because every anti-Israeli source quotes the settlements as illegal regardless of previous agreements.

[Double Edge]

The 2000 was supposed to be a reduced amount than what would normally have been constructed. The Israelis agreed to a temporary slow down.

A few days after the shouting match, Kerry came to see Netanyahu at his office in Jerusalem. The Israeli premier was feeling alone, angry, and besieged. Tea Party types were continuing their slow-motion takeover of the Likud, weakening his position domestically.

Is naftali bennet a tea party type ?

Whatever assortment of characters that likud has on board strike me more as extremes rather than tea party types. They wanted Hamas completeley elliminated and Israel to take over Gaza which Bibi would not do.

[zraver]

They didn't get their settlement units because every anti-Israeli source quotes the settlements as illegal regardless of previous agreements.

Not anti-Israel, anti-occupation. Huge numbers of Israelis oppose the settlements, they can't be anti-self.

[Parihaka]

Not anti-Israel, anti-occupation. Huge numbers of Israelis oppose the settlements, they can't be anti-self.

Oh right. So Israel and Israelis can't be held responsible for the actions of Israel in supporting the settlements then.

[zraver]

Oh right. So Israel and Israelis can't be held responsible for the actions of Israel in supporting the settlements then.

I know you're trying to make a point, but not sure what.

[Parihaka]

I know you're trying to make a point, but not sure what.

Sorry Jason, let me help

Israeli
[iz-rey-lee] Spell Syllables
Word Origin
noun, plural Israelis (especially collectively) Israeli.
1.
a native or inhabitant of modern Israel.
adjective
2.
of or pertaining to modern Israel or its inhabitants.

Hence: the software was of Israeli manufacture


My previous post which then caused you so much confusion was merely to ascertain whether you'd changed your mind over the collective responsibility of Israelis for official, that is governmental, Israeli policy?

[lemontree]

What do Paks have in common with an insurgent like hizbullah ?

In June 2006 Parvez Musharraf's govt had donated money to the Hamas.

Besides, all Arab nations provide money in some form or the other. The most common method is through "donations" in Mecca "for brothers of the faith".
The money goes in a common kitty and no nation is named as the donor.

[zraver]

Sorry Jason, let me help



Hence: the software was of Israeli manufacture


My previous post which then caused you so much confusion was merely to ascertain whether you'd changed your mind over the collective responsibility of Israelis for official, that is governmental, Israeli policy?

The only Israelis I've ever held to collective accountability are the settlers and their families who commit crimes and terror attacks, but this merely mirrors official policy by Israel concerning the Palestinians.