Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Writing Was on the Wall

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by zraver View Post
    In the context of the current crisis the problems stem from the 1967 Occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem.
    Is that like using data from 1980 on to discuss "global warming?"

    Originally posted by zraver View Post
    Doubtful given the track record, seems Israel is going to bomb Syria or Lebanon at least once a year.
    Tit-for-tat violence.

    Originally posted by zraver View Post
    They have for decades now
    And Israel hasn't bombed Egypt and Jordan for a while. What a surprise.

    Originally posted by zraver View Post
    The ones headed by Abbas said yup, just leave us and our land alone in return.
    And Israel has been pretty nice to the West Bank. Amazing what restraint on both sides can do.

    Originally posted by zraver View Post
    Do you really want to get into charters given the number of right wing groups Bibi depends on who are calling for genocide and Israel for Jews only?
    Yes let's.

    Originally posted by zraver View Post
    To that lets add the obvious questions you left out

    1. Will the Israelis leave the Palestinians alone?
    Sure, just stop killing Israelis.

    Originally posted by zraver View Post
    2. Will Israel share the water?
    Sure, just stop killing Israelis.

    Originally posted by zraver View Post
    3. Will Israel abide by its own and international law?
    Sure, just stop killing Israelis.

    Originally posted by zraver View Post
    4. Will Israel destroy the homes of Jewish terrorists?
    Loaded question.

    If both sides are at peace, and some jewish zealots commits murder, then yes, I have faith in the Israeli justice system, like I have faith in the American justice system to prosecute white supremacists here.

    Originally posted by zraver View Post
    5. Will Israel stop forcing Palestinians in to ever smaller and smaller areas?
    Sure, just stop killing Israelis.

    Originally posted by zraver View Post
    6. Will Israel ever get serious about stopping right wing terror attacks in the West Bank and East Jerusalem
    Sure, just stop killing Israelis.

    Originally posted by zraver View Post
    If past is prologue the answer is no.
    You don't have faith?
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by gunnut View Post
      Is that like using data from 1980 on to discuss "global warming?"
      No, its a valid starting point for a border.


      Tit-for-tat violence.
      When was the last time Syria (pre-civil war) attacked Israel?

      And Israel hasn't bombed Egypt and Jordan for a while. What a surprise.
      Ya, but funny how the exact same peace terms are not on the tale for the Palestinians

      And Israel has been pretty nice to the West Bank. Amazing what restraint on both sides can do.
      If by restraint you mean thousands of terror attacks injuring tens of thousands of Palestinians (if we use Israel's criteria of what constitutes terror and injury if done to Israelis) and ever expanding settlements



      Yes let's.
      Lets start with the second biggest party in Israel and part of the ruling coalition the Jewish Home Party who wants no political rights for non-Jews and calls for Jewish dominance of the occupied territories. made up of settlers and settler supporters many of its members are the ones conducting price-tag (terror) attacks on Palestinians.

      Sure, just stop killing Israelis.
      They did, but Israelis didn't stop killing them.

      Sure, just stop killing Israelis.
      They did, but Israelis didn't stop killing them. Not to mention so because someone does a crmminal act, Israel has the right to continue a system of water allocation that leaves a large population at risk? That is collective punishment and is illegal.

      Sure, just stop killing Israelis.
      They did, but Israelis didn't stop killing them, and Israel does not obey its own laws and continues to engage in collective punishment.



      Loaded question.

      If both sides are at peace, and some jewish zealots commits murder, then yes, I have faith in the Israeli justice system, like I have faith in the American justice system to prosecute white supremacists here.
      Except Israel almost never prosecutes Israels who commit acts of terror against Palestinians... why would they, its government policy to do so as shown by the recent skunk attack on Palestinians schools.


      Sure, just stop killing Israelis.
      They did, but Israelis didn't stop expanding the settlements, and that is a policy of collective punishment which is illegal.



      Sure, just stop killing Israelis.
      They did, but Israelis didn't stop killing them.


      You don't have faith?
      I'm a student of history, Israel has been following a pattern of behavior that would not be accepted if it wasn't Israel. Until they lose political cover provided by the US and access to global markets and finance they have no reason to change. That is why BDS is so important. Until their own actions hurt them, Israel wont stop hurting the Palestinians.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by zraver View Post
        There is a formal peace with Jordan and Egypt, the Gulf Arabs are not funding wars on Israel, Saddam is dead and all of the recent international violence has been from Israel not towards it.
        May I remind you for the following:
        (a) HAMAS - receives funding from Palestinian expatriates, Iran, and private benefactors in Saudi Arabia and other "moderate!" Arab states.
        (b) Hizbullah - receives direct support and funding from Iran, Libya, Syria, Sudan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and the Persian Gulf oil states.
        (c) Palestine Islamic Jihad - support from Syria and Iran.

        Dissagree, there was peace in the WB/EJ for years and all the Pals got was more settlement construction and endless harassment by the IDF and settlers
        Were these settlements built within WB/ Gaza?
        The treaty is between Jordan and Israel and Israel has control of the area its Israel's responsibility.
        Please look at the map a major part of the River Jordan passes along the Jordanian and WB border before it empties into the Dead Sea. All three, Israel, Syria and Jordan divert war from the north. So why blame just Israel - PA needs to negotiate.

        o, I mean right wing Israelis who engage in acts of violence against Palestinians.
        It is time the PA learn to use the courts of law. If those steps fail, then only will they be justified in using violence to seek justice.

        West Bank economy was improving despite Israeli actions, Gaza is a cluster, kinda hard to build a working economy when you are subject to blockade.
        Economies cannot be developed if meagre resources are used to build infra for a future war and not development.

        has nothing to do with whats going on today in the WB/EJ. The PA recognized Israel and met every condition Israel set for Egypt and Jordan.
        Though the PLO claims that it recognizes Israel's right to exist and wants to found a state only in Gaza and the West Bank, its official stationery, bearing its official emblem, betrays its true goals. As PLO officials have indicated repeatedly, the organization has designs on conquering all of Israel.

        Cheers!...on the rocks!!

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
          Your comment. "Israel does not want peace, they want piece- a piece of this, a piece of that"

          You've never seen that movie then?
          When did that movie come out ?

          That perception has been an enduring one and depends on the era.

          Take 67-81, Israel is in the Sinai, then they pull out.

          83-2001, Israel is in Lebanon, then they pull out.

          2005 - out of gaza, evicting their own people for the larger good.

          Wants a piece of this & that applies somewhat between '70 - 2000 but the pulling out after is ignored. meaning that Israel will move in somewhere else in the future if required. I don't see it happening.

          As far as the WB is concerned, the settlements take up 6% of territory there. Why are they expanding, i think its to build leverage, more chips to trade should an eventual settlement come about. There are those that argue if it continues it will be impossible to ever reach a settlement. Very debatable.

          I don't understand the mindset of an Israeli that wants to move into the WB, if it isn't the constant threat of some attack, your own govt has shown it will eject you whenever it wants (!)

          Originally posted by lemontree View Post
          May I remind you for the following:
          (a) HAMAS - receives funding from Palestinian expatriates, Iran, and private benefactors in Saudi Arabia and other "moderate!" Arab states.
          (b) Hizbullah - receives direct support and funding from Iran, Libya, Syria, Sudan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and the Persian Gulf oil states.
          (c) Palestine Islamic Jihad - support from Syria and Iran.
          Underlined bits i kinda doubt after arab spring & Syrian civil war started.

          What do Paks have in common with an insurgent like hizbullah ?

          Saudis have a big beef with the MB so would not support Hamas. KSA, UAE & kuwait shelled out $12 billion to unseat the MB as condition to prevent an Egyptian currency collapse.

          Qatar however yes. Qatar does not fear the MB nor Iran. They play a hedging game and have their fingers in most pies around. However this is going to slowly stop as their PM was sidelined a few months back. It was at the time that the Sheikh stood down and asked his son to take over, the real news was hamad bin jassim. 15 years of putting Qatar on the map in terms of soft power and he succeeded, just that it was getting to the point where the future of Qatar was being threatened.

          When Israel went into Gaza recently, the Arab street did not erupt in the usual way, much more muted. Maybe even to the point where people start to think Gaza was just asking for it.

          Maybe they had other things on the fire. Of late all the other turmoil in the region has pushed Israel to the back burner. A bad thing from the Pal pov. Hizbullah has bigger fish to fry in Syria for now.

          One could look at this attack in the synagogue as a way to reclaim some attention by forcing an Israeli reaction. Fat chance.
          Last edited by Double Edge; 21 Nov 14,, 10:59.

          Comment


          • #20
            Berkley students eh?

            In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

            Leibniz

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
              Berkley students eh?

              Eh, I get the whole Berkeley extreme-leftist stereotype but I feel like that undercuts a larger theme in colleges where people often feel the need to associate with certain parties that subscribe to black-and-white conclusions. I am by no means a fan of Hamas or Hezbollah rocket attacks/raids on Israeli citizens, nor does that in my mind justify Israeli transgressions regarding civilian casualties from airstrikes, but I can definitively say--in my view-- both instances are one of many examples that drive a vicious cycle of "eye for an eye" actions that must be addressed if it is to be stopped.

              But no, this decades-old conflict always has to be the the complete fault of either Israeli expansionism or Palestinian extremism.
              "Draft beer, not people."

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Red Team View Post
                but I can definitively say--in my view-- both instances are one of many examples that drive a vicious cycle of "eye for an eye" actions that must be addressed if it is to be stopped.
                Aka don't give the other guy an inch. This is a british mindset we inherited in the subcontinent as well.

                And 'nothing is agreed until everything is agreed' instead of 'what is agreed will be implemented'

                everything gets reset to zero if either party wants to.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by lemontree View Post
                  May I remind you for the following:
                  (a) HAMAS - receives funding from Palestinian expatriates, Iran, and private benefactors in Saudi Arabia and other "moderate!" Arab states.
                  (b) Hizbullah - receives direct support and funding from Iran, Libya, Syria, Sudan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and the Persian Gulf oil states.
                  (c) Palestine Islamic Jihad - support from Syria and Iran.
                  And how does this stack up to the support Israel gets from the US, and whose funding kills more civilians on the other side? Whats the dollar value of US political cover in the UN.

                  What exactly was your point?

                  Were these settlements built within WB/ Gaza?
                  West Bank and East Jerusalem

                  Please look at the map a major part of the River Jordan passes along the Jordanian and WB border before it empties into the Dead Sea. All three, Israel, Syria and Jordan divert war from the north. So why blame just Israel - PA needs to negotiate.
                  The area and power the PA needs to negotiate with is Israel, not Jordan. Israel is the one in control of Palestinian territory. The occupiers in the WB get more water than the occupied.

                  It is time the PA learn to use the courts of law. If those steps fail, then only will they be justified in using violence to seek justice.
                  What courts? The Israeli government ignores its own courts and the PA doesn't have access to international courts yet. Oh, and when did using the legal system become a prereq? I'm not aware of any torts or suits by Ghandi or other Indian nationalist.

                  Economies cannot be developed if meagre resources are used to build infra for a future war and not development.
                  Building for war is not an issue in the WB/EJ, please stop conflating these areas with Gaza.


                  Though the PLO claims that it recognizes Israel's right to exist and wants to found a state only in Gaza and the West Bank, its official stationery, bearing its official emblem, betrays its true goals. As PLO officials have indicated repeatedly, the organization has designs on conquering all of Israel.
                  No it doesn't, the only people in the WB and EJ demanding all of everything is the Israeli right wing.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
                    Berkley students eh?

                    I think average Berkeley student is smart enough to know the guy is obviously misrepresenting himself and indulging him.
                    All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
                    -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by zraver View Post
                      And how does this stack up to the support Israel gets from the US, and whose funding kills more civilians on the other side? Whats the dollar value of US political cover in the UN.

                      What exactly was your point?



                      West Bank and East Jerusalem



                      The area and power the PA needs to negotiate with is Israel, not Jordan. Israel is the one in control of Palestinian territory. The occupiers in the WB get more water than the occupied.



                      What courts? The Israeli government ignores its own courts and the PA doesn't have access to international courts yet. Oh, and when did using the legal system become a prereq? I'm not aware of any torts or suits by Ghandi or other Indian nationalist.



                      Building for war is not an issue in the WB/EJ, please stop conflating these areas with Gaza.




                      No it doesn't, the only people in the WB and EJ demanding all of everything is the Israeli right wing.
                      Mr Zraver Sir,

                      The temptation to call you an anti-semitic presents self after reading your long history of posts in regards to Israel. But those who throw labels such as anti-semitic, racist, Islamaphobe etc really piss me off as it's just a debate stopper.

                      You have your opinion and it's as good as anybody else's. What I want to know, something that I ask all the folks with your line of thought, is how you can be anti Israel after looking at the region as a whole. The MiddleEast is a big bag of shit. Cot case countries busy hacking away at each other or spending oil money on sand islands and hotels. Yet with Israel, right in the middle of it all, we have a thriving, democratic country with western values and way of life. Western culture, such as Europe, US and Australia have got the best game in town. Israel is part of this. In Israel arabs and jews live together with equal rights and easily the best quality of life in the Middleeastern region by far. So why support the Palestinians? They're are not victims.

                      It has to be clear to you that there is not a single thing, except disappearing from the face of the earth, that Israel can do that will change the situation. The Arabs want Israel gone. Something may take the pot off boil for a while but it will heat up again. Hamas etc are exactly like pressure groups campaigning for the closure of a dirty power station for example. If the group gets the power station shut down that group doesn't just disband and become happy. No, they find the next cause to rally against.

                      Israel returning any territories just puts them at a further strategic disadvantage. Hamas (I say Hamas but I'm thinkng Islam) is the problem here. No other defence force works harder to prevent civilian deaths than Israels. But their hammer is bigger and brutal - and it has to be. Israel as a nation is tiny and they cant fall back. For you, Israel being over run would simply be a newsclip you watched or newspaper article you read. But for the Jews they would be slaughtered by Hamas. Slaughtered.

                      Take away the Irondome and you have a shit load of rockets hitting Israel. But because Irondome intercepts the majority of launches we don't see the destruction they would have caused. Now if your town was being bombarded by rockets by dipshits hiding behind women and children in schools I don't think you would be strongly opposed to wiping the school from the face of the earth if it was the only to stop your town from being bombarded I certainly wouldn't.

                      I reckon you need to give Israel a break if only because they're are the lesser of two evils.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Gun Boat View Post
                        I reckon you need to give Israel a break if only because they're are the lesser of two evils.
                        How many co-conspirators of Rabin's assasination were punished?
                        Chimo

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Sir, I believe you could go tit for tat all day long with statements like that. I'm viewing this from position looking at which system works best. Western liberal democracies have demonstrated a culture and way of life that has worked best to this date. To put it another way - if every country lived the way the west lived the world would be a much better place overall.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                            How many co-conspirators of Rabin's assasination were punished?
                            More or same as in JFK case? :whome:
                            No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                            To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Gun Boat View Post
                              Mr Zraver Sir,

                              The temptation to call you an anti-semitic presents self after reading your long history of posts in regards to Israel. But those who throw labels such as anti-semitic, racist, Islamaphobe etc really piss me off as it's just a debate stopper.
                              It would also be a lie, when Israel is right I have defended her. My comments about the occupied territories stay there.

                              You have your opinion and it's as good as anybody else's. What I want to know, something that I ask all the folks with your line of thought, is how you can be anti Israel after looking at the region as a whole. The MiddleEast is a big bag of shit. Cot case countries busy hacking away at each other or spending oil money on sand islands and hotels. Yet with Israel, right in the middle of it all, we have a thriving, democratic country with western values and way of life. Western culture, such as Europe, US and Australia have got the best game in town. Israel is part of this. In Israel arabs and jews live together with equal rights and easily the best quality of life in the Middleeastern region by far. So why support the Palestinians? They're are not victims.
                              Israel's actions in the territories are not western. Separate courts, separate water allotments, internal passports, no say or vote in the government that has real control, military checkpoints, one group nearly 100% free to attack the other. An honest look at Israeli policy in the territories only leads to one conclusion- apartheid.

                              It has to be clear to you that there is not a single thing, except disappearing from the face of the earth, that Israel can do that will change the situation. The Arabs want Israel gone. Something may take the pot off boil for a while but it will heat up again. Hamas etc are exactly like pressure groups campaigning for the closure of a dirty power station for example. If the group gets the power station shut down that group doesn't just disband and become happy. No, they find the next cause to rally against.
                              Clap trap and hogwash, public opinion poll after poll shows the Palestinians as a whole accept the reality that Israel is- period full stop.

                              Israel returning any territories just puts them at a further strategic disadvantage. Hamas (I say Hamas but I'm thinkng Islam) is the problem here. No other defence force works harder to prevent civilian deaths than Israels. But their hammer is bigger and brutal - and it has to be. Israel as a nation is tiny and they cant fall back. For you, Israel being over run would simply be a newsclip you watched or newspaper article you read. But for the Jews they would be slaughtered by Hamas. Slaughtered.
                              Total hogwash, there is no strategic disadvantage in Israel leaving the territories- the Palestinians have zero ability or desire to invade Israel which enjoys a military overmatch that has rarely been seen in history.

                              Take away the Irondome and you have a shit load of rockets hitting Israel. But because Irondome intercepts the majority of launches we don't see the destruction they would have caused. Now if your town was being bombarded by rockets by dipshits hiding behind women and children in schools I don't think you would be strongly opposed to wiping the school from the face of the earth if it was the only to stop your town from being bombarded I certainly wouldn't.

                              I reckon you need to give Israel a break if only because they're are the lesser of two evils.
                              Israel fired more shells and dropped more bombs than Hamas fired rockets.

                              As for the lesser of two evil I reject that notion, evil is still evil. If I must side with one, I side with the group who is occupied and seeking national independence. The existence of a Palestine does not threaten Israel anymore than the existence of Jordan does.

                              Finnally, what do you propose to do with the Palestinians? There are 4 solutions- let them have a country, shove them out, kill them all or make them as a permanent under class. Israel seems to be following the 4th choice, but it is a nonstarter. Call it Jim Crow or Apartheid its been tried before and doesn't work, not for someone claiming to be a democracy.
                              Last edited by zraver; 22 Nov 14,, 12:05.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                                How many co-conspirators of Rabin's assasination were punished?
                                His grave needs to be guarded by soldiers to prevent desecration. How conveniently his service on the battlefield is forgotten.

                                Rabin is considered a traitor by some for making peace (!)

                                6 nobel peace prizes awarded for assisting with better relations in the region.

                                Two casualties. Sadat & Rabin.

                                Originally posted by Gun Boat View Post
                                It has to be clear to you that there is not a single thing, except disappearing from the face of the earth, that Israel can do that will change the situation. The Arabs want Israel gone. Something may take the pot off boil for a while but it will heat up again. Hamas etc are exactly like pressure groups campaigning for the closure of a dirty power station for example. If the group gets the power station shut down that group doesn't just disband and become happy. No, they find the next cause to rally against.
                                Madrid put an end to that thanks to Jim Baker & HW.

                                Israel became Israel and was no longer a 'zionist entity'.

                                Originally posted by Gun Boat View Post
                                Take away the Irondome and you have a shit load of rockets hitting Israel. But because Irondome intercepts the majority of launches we don't see the destruction they would have caused. Now if your town was being bombarded by rockets by dipshits hiding behind women and children in schools I don't think you would be strongly opposed to wiping the school from the face of the earth if it was the only to stop your town from being bombarded I certainly wouldn't.
                                Was listening to a talk by an israeli officer years after iron dome was implemented.

                                How difficult it was to get going as at the time few believed it could work.
                                Last edited by Double Edge; 22 Nov 14,, 12:27.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X