Modi gives free hand to forces over Pak ceasefire violation

[Oracle]

Look at the situation in the NE from the perspective of groups in a fight for its land and resources.

After independence, the accession treaties brought down two major powers in the region that were responsible for maintaining balance in the region(manipur and tripura kingdoms). This created a power flux that continues till date with different local groups trying to fill that void.

What about the Dimasa kingdom or the Naga chieftains then? Complete BS.

It's about asserting ones' right over their lands, maps of which date back to the British times. For example the Kukis cannot take over Senapati from the Meiteis, even if (Kukis) have no state (but are living there for many decades) and are discriminated by the Meities and are a majority there. Not even the Nagas can wretch control of Senapati from the Manipuris. Which is why the ongoing pissing contest in Manipur doesn't stop. You want to know more?

Lol, New delhi is not going to do the killings for you - bleh, bleh. They already did that before.

[anil]

I dídn't make those maps, the british did.

The above map is from 1907. This one below is from 1875.

http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.c.../India1875.jpg

The concept of a "kingdom" or a common state is alien to much of the NE. The influence of hinduism first brought the idea to the meiteis and the tripuris who used it to establish their respective kingdoms. A similar concept of "kingdom" was introduced to the hill tribes by the influence of christianity centuries later but the concept never matured there(due to tribal nationalism and tribal warfare) and it came in a time when independent india was replacing kingdoms with federal states.

The last thing new delhi is going to do is involve itself in the internal politics of these communities. When the division of assam itself has proved practically useless, do you think anyone in new delhi is betting on bringing lasting peace through political talks by dividing 4 additional states? Get real!

Look at the revenue of NE states - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States...y_tax_revenues
and then guess whether any politician in india is willing to put money, resources or political focus there

[Oracle]

I dídn't make those maps, the british did.

The above map is from 1907. This one below is from 1875.

http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.c.../India1875.jpg

The concept of a "kingdom" or a common state is alien to much of the NE. The influence of hinduism first brought the idea to the meiteis and the tripuris who used it to establish their respective kingdoms. A similar concept of "kingdom" was introduced to the hill tribes by the influence of christianity centuries later but the concept never matured there(due to tribal nationalism and tribal warfare) and it came in a time when independent india was replacing kingdoms with federal states.

The last thing new delhi is going to do is involve itself in the internal politics of these communities. When the division of assam itself has proved practically useless, do you think anyone in new delhi is betting on bringing lasting peace through political talks by dividing 4 additional states? Get real!

Look at the revenue of NE states - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States...y_tax_revenues
and then guess whether any politician in india is willing to put money, resources or political focus there

I don't need a map for the place I belong. Kingdom/common state as in the Khaps? Lol, stop BS'ing me. How much revenue did Mizoram have in the 60s?

Btw, the tribes of the NE were animist. Now don't go on a tangent quoting Mahabharata. Hinduism came later, and Christianity much much later. And DE, very much said most of what needs to be done (and would get done) through this post - To act east one needs a path to the east. Doesn't matter what you think anyway, you are not the Union Government, nor does your flaccid theories hold any water, really. Keep inventing stuff, though.

[anil]

To the contrary,

I've found that most natives of the NE themselves do not understand their own land, fellow neighbours and their situation. If people in the NE actually knew their own neighbourhood and what their neighbours wanted then perhaps they wouldn't have had this situation and the indian military wouldn't have had to play the role of a boogeyman(through AFSPA) as a warning to keep the lot from raiding each other causing mass refugees.

The NE is a region with limited land and resources with a disproportional fertility rate compared to the national average of rest of india(2.2). meghalaya 3.8 nagaland 3.7 arunachal 3.0 mizoram 2.9 manipur 2.8 assam 2.4 tripura 2.2 sikkim 2.0. Its unskilled market is almost entirely occupied with migrant workers and many more keep pouring in. I don't know how well you know your NE, but I can tell you 10-15 years from now, almost every tribe and community in the region is going to be at each others throat desperately trying to secure itself.

[Oracle]

To the contrary,

I've found that most natives of the NE themselves do not understand their own land, fellow neighbours and their situation. If people in the NE actually knew their own neighbourhood and what their neighbours wanted then perhaps they wouldn't have had this situation and the indian military wouldn't have had to play the role of a boogeyman(through AFSPA) as a warning to keep the lot from raiding each other causing mass refugees.

Yeah, and you a Northie living off doles in Mumbai know it better. Right!
The para-military forces are there, because we want it there, not the other way around.

Ethnic tribals are not refugees in their own lands. Tribes settled on hillocks and boundaries were drawn much later. No one would give up their land, even if that tribe are Kukis living in Nagaland, or Nagas living in Assam. The fuck that you don't know basic things add to the marginal knowledge of the situation you have. So learn, do not be ignorant and spread lies and your usual bullshit. And, if you can, please stop trying to pass off as a scholar on matters pertaining to the NE.

The NE is a region with limited land and resources with a disproportional fertility rate compared to the national average of rest of india(2.2). meghalaya 3.8 nagaland 3.7 arunachal 3.0 mizoram 2.9 manipur 2.8 assam 2.4 tripura 2.2 sikkim 2.0. Its unskilled market is almost entirely occupied with migrant workers and many more keep pouring in. I don't know how well you know your NE, but I can tell you 10-15 years from now, almost every tribe and community in the region is going to be at each others throat desperately trying to secure itself.

Really, then WTF are you doing in Mumbai? No bhaiyya job for you in the badlands of UP? Limited land and resources? Never heard of the oil from Assam. Or Assam tea? Oh! You learned genius, the fertility rate might be higher, however we don't breeds like rats as that in the North. And your advice is noted, in 15 years you'd be gone and nobody would bloody care.

[Double Edge]

And the Central Government has done it in the past during the Mizo insurgency. Why not now?

The only time we bombed our own people otherwise the capital there would fall.

You have a very hardline stance here. Yeah, lets slap the whole of the NE with AFSPA.

It reminds of people advocating the same when it came to maoists. Involve the military! who bluntly refused and said it was not their job.

Just see the flare up in Manipur over the inner line permit system. First in six years after relative calm.

That operation into Burma was because Kaplangs outfit refused to renew the ceasefire agreement. You got the action you wanted.

[Oracle]

The only time we bombed our own people otherwise the capital there would fall.

DE, we have as an Union come a long way since then. Nothing would fall now, and that is my belief. There aren't many among the new generation in the NE who see eye to eye with the insurgent outfits.

You have a very hardline stance here. Yeah, lets slap the whole of the NE with AFSPA.

It reminds of people advocating the same when it came to maoists. Involve the military! who bluntly refused and said it was not their job.

My stance may seem hard due to the formative years I've spent there, but I personally feel that is the only way forward. One should not expect peace without shedding some blood. This is exactly the callous attitude that has kept NE rotting all these years. There has been a lot of bloodshed already. Most people are fed up of the killings and want nothing to do with any outfit. These poor guys are often caught up in the conflict between the State (para-military) and the insurgent groups.

Oh, and I have the same PoV w.r.t the Maoists. Have time bounded action items. Lay down arms, come to the table to talk, or be prepared to face the might of the State. And well, in the case of the Maoists, military refused because they were asked directly by journalists, they would follow orders if those came from the highest corridors of power. The SFs just did that inside Burma, and have been doing that for years in the NE. Remember Operation Bajrang (?), that was just the start. There were many secret killings of ULFA family members by the Assam Police with the help of the military. That was the time when the Union showed some spine.

I also understand your position DE. But I have mine. We grew up in separate places under different circumstances. You grew up in peace, and I, under the shadow of the gun.

Just see the flare up in Manipur over the inner line permit system. First in six years after relative calm.

The ILP needs to be scrapped in all the 3 states that practice it. You know what, a lady probably a month before filed a PIL against Sunny Leone for her nude pics all over the internet, and nobody has time to file a PIL against discriminating policies. If Indian citizens from other states need an ILP to enter Manipur, then people of Manipur should also be served the same BS when they come to the South or go North. And Manipur has been relatively calm for 6 years (?), like what Bangalore has been for the last 6 years? Has it ever occurred to you that this flare up regarding the ILP have the blessings of the insurgent outfits? People there are buying government subsidized gas cylinders @ INR 2200 and more, potato @ INR 80-100/kg. It's a matter of shame that the GoI doesn't have its writ in those places and ordinary people continue to suffer, for decades.

That operation into Burma was because Kaplangs outfit refused to renew the ceasefire agreement. You got the action you wanted.

Khaplang (NSCN-K) abrogated the cease-fire with the GoI and killed 18 soldiers in a broad daylight ambush. Here, the State showed its might.

But what actually happened is a different case. Konyak and Tikhak (both senior members of NSCM-K) wanted the ceasefire with the GoI to continue and got kicked out of the outfit. Khaplang did not want it to continue as he saw it as a wastage of time and a mockery, and ordered the hit on the soldiers from a Hospital bed in Burma. He had to send out a message, a strong one to the GoI as well as his former comrades. A very poor tactic considering BJP is in power. Anyways, both Konyak and Tikhak have formed a new group named NSCM - R, R for 'Reformation' they say. Like start-ups, they grow in the NE. :) Money and power afterall. Business.

[anil]

No one in new delhi practices any quick solution methods

It would have been easy to clear insurgents in NE if there was a fine line between them and civilians but it is not. The civilian participation in insurgent movements in NE is much stronger than in kashmir valley. Many such insurgent orgs have raised fronts representing their communities as socio-political NGOs. Others like the meitei underground have ideological relations with the empire and its people. In this situation, any action against insurgent groups only worsens new delhis relation with civilians.



The above is a terrain map with red borders marking the hills. This problem is almost entirely concentrated in non-tibetan areas and in those regions which come into contact with hill tribes so we know it has to do with the social and political relationship between tribal and non-tribal communities in that geography. Article 371a is partly an extension of the reservation enforced by the british raj.

[lemontree]

The above is a terrain map with red borders marking the hills.

???...Which part are hills and which are plains!!
Have you been to the NE?
Everything, east and west of that red line is hilly, jungle terrain.

[Oracle]

???...Which part are hills and which are plains!!
Have you been to the NE?
Everything, east and west of that red line is hilly, jungle terrain.

He's all hot air.

Now this -> Terror strikes Punjab, SP among 6 killed, 1 terrorist eliminated

Now this -> Gurdaspur attack: Terrorists came from Pak via Ravi river, Rajanth says
& Gurdaspur Terrorists Came From Pakistan, But Talks On For Now: Home Minister

So, LT, does the BJP government have a Pakistan policy which deals with ceasefire violations across the LoC & IB, and terrorist incidents such as the Gurdaspur attack? Matching fire with fire along the border isn't a solution, IMV.

Before elections, the oratorical voices within the BJP reduced the Congress led UPA-II as corrupt, incompetent and soft on terror. And that is true. What changed now for the BJP to meow meow the same tune played by the Congress? Both BJP & Congress are adept at playing to the gallery. The thinking that we're big country and can take small hits is what prevails on the minds of our leaders. Nobody has a bloody spine. The HM says 'we want peace, but Pakistan keeps sending terrorists, why?'. If he doesn't know why, he should step down from that chair and make way for a retired general.

For each ceasefire violation along the LoC & IB, the Pakistani positions need to be pounded with artillery strikes, and concluded with a SFs ops. Every damn time. Repeat the same everytime terrorists try to sneak through. Incidents like Gurdaspur needs to be replied with artillery strikes and carpet bombing of the terrorist camps across the LoC. Up the ante, make it costly for the Pakistanis. And I agree, this is radical.

[anil]

???...Which part are hills and which are plains!!

"Hills" meaning altitude terrain, indicated in shaded parts. The map is based on satellite data.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@24.84.../data=!5m1!1e4

[Oracle]

Christine Fair is bang on target. Well, atleast someone shares my thinking.

The Gurdaspur attack should remove any doubt that Pakistan’s generals want peace with India. This attack is a clever move for several reasons. It is the first attack during the Modi government’s tenure that has taken place outside of J&K. Yet Gurdaspur, a middling city that will not capture public attention for long, does not have the provocation potential of an attack on Delhi or Mumbai. Would India risk war for Gurdaspur? However, it is almost certain that a tepid response to Gurdaspur will invite more ambitious attacks on high-value targets within India.

It would behoove India to tell its international backers bluntly that there is no “India-Pakistan problem;” only a Pakistan problem. It needs to develop a suite of policies that will impose significant and escalating costs upon Pakistan, diplomatically, politically and militarily. And India’s partners should support India in its application of power rather than continually excusing Pakistan’s behaviour. Pakistan is trying to ascertain whether this Indian government is all bluster and no follow-through. Failure to respond vigorously will surely encourage further Pakistani terrorist adventurism.

Full article @ TOI

[Oracle]

Another attack in Udhampur, one terrorist caught alive by his hostages. Pakistan as usual in denial mode, till Admission by captured terrorist Naved’s father blows Pak denial sky-high

Another ongoing - Udhampur terror attack: Militants attack police post, 2 SPOs injured