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  • #46
    Originally posted by desertswo View Post
    Out of curiosity, on which coast did you do the SWOS basic course? It might provide a clue to your memory lapse, because both the fire fighting school and the wet trainer in San Diego were across the Bay from the SWOS "campus" on the Amphib Base, creating a bit of a transportation problem, with students driving their own cars, searching for parking places, etc., etc., etc. It was a pain in the rear. Meanwhile in Newport, they were both fairly close to things on the base (although the fire fighting facility were on "Burma Road," but still not too far away.
    Newport.

    It's odd, because I remember arriving, remember our class leader, Ash Wednesday there, liberty in Boston, the YP officer writing "Relax" on my evals, it being too windy once to go out, all the money I spent getting new electronics, another senior officer telling me to relax when I had to report to him because I was as tight as a spring-standing demi pointe in my shoes, a classmate telling about how when he arrived for OCS how he only had a motorcyle and a bedroll and in departure he had a pick up as well and so forth and so on. There were a pair of Ashvilles (PG) in the harbor waiting to go to some country. Very clear nights on the YP that made it quite unreal. And so forth.

    But I don't remember wet trainers or fire fighting there. Since you say they must have happened, I guess having done them before on cruises and as part of SOLAS, they weren't something new and hence, just got lost in the background.

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    • #47
      If this is any indication of where we are heading......WE"RE DOOMED! :insane:

      Navy Seeks to Adapt Training for Millennials | Military.com

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      • #48
        Why are officers doing the job of the POs and CPOs?

        And I don't recall that there was ever a course on this. It was always PR. Good leaders get promoted and stayed in the field. Others go to a desk job.
        Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 01 Oct 14,, 15:18.
        Chimo

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        • #49
          Originally posted by SlaterDoc View Post
          If this is any indication of where we are heading......WE"RE DOOMED! :insane:

          Navy Seeks to Adapt Training for Millennials | Military.com
          Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
          Why are officers doing the job of the POs and CPOs?

          And I don't recall that there was ever a course on this. It was always PR. Good leaders get promoted and stayed in the field. Others go to a desk job.
          I concur with both observations . . . sort of. It was my experience that unfortunately, good leaders tend to be born, not made. One can become a very good "manager" and be successful in command after a fashion, but leadership is something else again. I used to look for young people, both commissioned and enlisted who had "it." Don't ask me what "it" was, but as the late US Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart was heard to say with regard to pornography, "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it." I would mentor those people, even as a CO (as I had been mentored by both senior officers and the Chief's mess when I was a junior officer). However, there is mentoring and coddling. Some of this sounds like coddling. One has to grow up sometime, and "child centric" or not, if one is going to sea with me, one had better learn how to fish, or cut bait, as I didn't suffer fools gladly.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Tamara View Post
            Newport.

            It's odd, because I remember arriving, remember our class leader, Ash Wednesday there, liberty in Boston, the YP officer writing "Relax" on my evals, it being too windy once to go out, all the money I spent getting new electronics, another senior officer telling me to relax when I had to report to him because I was as tight as a spring-standing demi pointe in my shoes, a classmate telling about how when he arrived for OCS how he only had a motorcyle and a bedroll and in departure he had a pick up as well and so forth and so on. There were a pair of Ashvilles (PG) in the harbor waiting to go to some country. Very clear nights on the YP that made it quite unreal. And so forth.

            But I don't remember wet trainers or fire fighting there. Since you say they must have happened, I guess having done them before on cruises and as part of SOLAS, they weren't something new and hence, just got lost in the background.
            As I said, the fire fighting facility was down Defense Highway, aka "Burma Road" (the Navy housing I lived in was right nearby), on the ground that was very near, if not right on top of, the remains of the Motor Torpedo Boat Training School where JFK learned his business. Meanwhile, the wet trainer was in a barn like building near the OCS dorm, and was memorable for being somewhat realistic in that the spaces that got wet were on a set of gimbals that allowed them to pivot from side to side, like a rolling ship; only it didn't roll, it "capsized" if the damage control team didn't get the flooding under control. Obviously the thing didn't completely turn turtle, but when the water level got high enough, it suddenly developed a 20 degree list in the blink of an eye. It was just dramatic enough to REALLY get the students' attention. I probably remember it more than you because I not only trained in it, but I used to go watch the various classes train in it in my guise as Department Director. All Directors were required to observe their instructors in action, much the same way school principals observe teachers in the classroom, so with roughly 50 instructors ranging from First Class Petty Officers to Lieutenant Commanders, I wasn't often sitting behind my desk playing solitaire on my computer; and I watched a lot of students capsize over the course of three years! :slap:

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            • #51
              Originally posted by desertswo View Post
              As I said, the fire fighting facility was down Defense Highway, aka "Burma Road" (the Navy housing I lived in was right nearby), on the ground that was very near, if not right on top of, the remains of the Motor Torpedo Boat Training School where JFK learned his business. Meanwhile, the wet trainer was in a barn like building near the OCS dorm, and was memorable for being somewhat realistic in that the spaces that got wet were on a set of gimbals that allowed them to pivot from side to side, like a rolling ship; only it didn't roll, it "capsized" if the damage control team didn't get the flooding under control. Obviously the thing didn't completely turn turtle, but when the water level got high enough, it suddenly developed a 20 degree list in the blink of an eye. It was just dramatic enough to REALLY get the students' attention. I probably remember it more than you because I not only trained in it, but I used to go watch the various classes train in it in my guise as Department Director. All Directors were required to observe their instructors in action, much the same way school principals observe teachers in the classroom, so with roughly 50 instructors ranging from First Class Petty Officers to Lieutenant Commanders, I wasn't often sitting behind my desk playing solitaire on my computer; and I watched a lot of students capsize over the course of three years! :slap:
              Well, if you say so.

              I really don't recall these places with maybe the exception of the OCS dorm. It seemed to me that the OCS school? dorm? was out on a point right next to SWOS; one could watch merchants pass behind them in the channel. As far as a MTB school, such historic land marks don't ring a bell.

              Finally, back then, we didn't have solitaire on our computers. It was still very much an MS-DOS world. In fact, didn't even see the start of Windows till about 1989 with Windows 2.1 (?) for a 286 which was high tech back then.......and a lot of us were using the Zenith all in one desk units. Not saying that games didn't exist, just that were more text based than anything else. As an example, what was I playing on the work computer to clear my mind? Towers of Hanoi.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Tamara View Post
                Well, if you say so.

                I really don't recall these places with maybe the exception of the OCS dorm. It seemed to me that the OCS school? dorm? was out on a point right next to SWOS; one could watch merchants pass behind them in the channel. As far as a MTB school, such historic land marks don't ring a bell.

                Finally, back then, we didn't have solitaire on our computers. It was still very much an MS-DOS world. In fact, didn't even see the start of Windows till about 1989 with Windows 2.1 (?) for a 286 which was high tech back then.......and a lot of us were using the Zenith all in one desk units. Not saying that games didn't exist, just that were more text based than anything else. As an example, what was I playing on the work computer to clear my mind? Towers of Hanoi.
                Yeah, the building where the Basic or Division Officer Course was taught was over there by OCS. The "head shed" where the CO's office, and all of the Director's offices, instructor bays, classrooms, and CIC and Engineering simulators were was over by the War College. That's where the Department Head, PXO, PCO, Major Command, and Senior Officer Ship Material Readiness Course ("SOSMRC" - the one that I taught big chunks of) were taught. Aside from the space factor, the decision was made to keep the Ensigns on the other side of the little bridge to Coasters Harbor Island, as with all of the senior officers found in the main building, the boss really didn't want the "butter bars" under foot. ;)

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                • #53
                  At the sub school, many of the students are enlisted sailors who arrive in their late teens and early 20s. Jarrett said many come from backgrounds with strong family support, and when they arrive in Groton, there's a sense "of 'where's my Navy mom and dad?'"

                  "That's where we as a submarine force are struggling a bit," said Jarrett, who added that some junior officers have had a hard time adjusting to Navy ways.
                  You have got to be kidding me. It is the military and if they can't adjust then maybe they are in the wrong field.

                  Strong family support is a bunch of crap. Are they then saying that all those before came from families with no support. Looks like someone is looking for an excuse. Whatever, I am glad I am not a millennial...

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
                    You have got to be kidding me. It is the military and if they can't adjust then maybe they are in the wrong field.

                    Strong family support is a bunch of crap. Are they then saying that all those before came from families with no support. Looks like someone is looking for an excuse. Whatever, I am glad I am not a millennial...
                    Having found the article quoted at another source, Navy Seeks to Adapt Training for Millennials | Military.com, I'm curious a bit.

                    Such as this point: "For millennials, it's very important for them to have a relationship with their boss, just like they had with their parents," Jarrett said during a talk with a submarine veterans' group. "They don't want to be friends but they want you to care about them and give them feedback."

                    How is this different from looking out for one's troops, maintaining their morale? Long ago, I did things such as counseled them, saw that their records reflected their accomplishments, recognized their work with letters of appreciation, ensured that they were fed, worked to have an officer assigned to their detachment if they were deployed outside my coverage, visited them in sickbay and the brig, saw that at least one person remembered their birthday, and so forth.

                    What's different from back then and now?

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by SlaterDoc View Post
                      If this is any indication of where we are heading......WE"RE DOOMED! :insane:

                      Navy Seeks to Adapt Training for Millennials | Military.com
                      Originally posted by tbm3fan
                      You have got to be kidding me. It is the military and if they can't adjust then maybe they are in the wrong field.

                      Strong family support is a bunch of crap. Are they then saying that all those before came from families with no support. Looks like someone is looking for an excuse. Whatever, I am glad I am not a millennial...
                      We can all lament the death of the military OR we can recognize that this is the same thing that happens every generation, actually a bit more often. It just made the papers this time.

                      A tale of a young gun bunny
                      [rant on]

                      Way back in ancient times (1980) A young Jarhead was born. This was the tail end the end of the vietnam era. The military realized that in order to keep us motivated and and out of trouble we demanded certain things.

                      We wanted schools where we could learn our trade. And demanded qualified instructors. The days of OJT for a skill qualification (MOS) didn't cut it. We also demanded better leadership. And schools to teach us those skills. Artillery school was run at the Regt level and only people that signed up for bonuses went to it.

                      It was the end of the world.
                      "OMG, whats wrong with this new generation? The best way to learn is through doing, you don't learn anything in a class room"
                      " Soft ass kids, want to know the hows and whys. Back in my day if you talked back like that the Platoon Sgt would clean your clock."
                      " Privacy, why do they need rooms?" Open squadbays were good enough for us. And they work real well in the prison system?" We will have weak NCOs that don't check on their troops"

                      Guess what? We changed. MOS producing schools got professional instructors that had been through courses that teach them how to teach effectively. No more dumping your shitbirds over to schools battalion.

                      And all those schools developed criteria and enforced standards. Everyone that came to the fleet from a school had the same knowledge base. You knew what to expect. And we developed advanced schools so that Section chiefs, platoon sgts, security chiefs and company gunnys could hit the ground running vice trying to figure out what to do their first 6 months on the job.

                      We developed leadership school. No longer were your leaders the people that beat you down for asking questions They actually were capable of spotting situations before they became problems. And had a whole seabag of tricks to use to keep things running. And none of them included going in the treeline and "Kicking your smart ass"

                      3 man rooms cut down on hazing incidents and gave the youngsters a sense of belonging.

                      Those changes are some of the things that created the force that won the Gulf War in less than 100 hours. A professional, technically proficient, well led killing machine.

                      Then the next generation came aboard. And they whined about lack of recognition, and antiquated gear.

                      And it was the end of the world.

                      "Back in my day a well done from my Sgt was all I needed. Junior enlisted don't get NAMs" "This gear was good enough during vietnam, why would we need anything else" They are all a bunch of play station warriors, that want "Level ups" and tacti-cool stuff". "Notepads, pencil and paper maps don't quit because their battery died." "That stuff may be good for rock climbers and camping but will never hold up in the field." "The young kids need to learn that its not all about them its about us"

                      Guess what, we got modern gear, we incorporated computers on the battlefield.(ie. BFT) We changed the way we lead troops. (Old 1990s MC Gazette/times articles on how to lead the Gen/x/y groups). We started rewarding accomplishments with Navy Achievements (pushed the awarding authority down to Bn level). We got way better, and lighter gear.

                      And that generation blew through Iraq like it was butter.

                      This latest is just Deja Vu all over again.

                      No one would ever think that the leadership techniques that we used in the 1950 have a place in todays military. Civilians come up with a new management concept every decade or so. Know any company that use Theory Y management from the 1960s? The japanese styles popular in the 1980s, Demings TQM?


                      [end of rant]
                      Last edited by Gun Grape; 04 Oct 14,, 03:01.

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                      • #56
                        “Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”


                        ― Socrates

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
                          “Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”

                          ― Socrates
                          You beat me to it! ;)
                          If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

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