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Flemish Independence: better to be good friends than stay together in a bad marriage

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  • Flemish Independence: better to be good friends than stay together in a bad marriage

    Flemish Independence: better to be good friends than stay together in a bad marriage



    An independent Flanders with Brussels as its capital will be best for the Flemish people who represent 60 percent of the Belgium population, and provide 80 percent of its economy, Flemish MP Tom van Grieken told RT.

    Following in the footsteps of Scotland, Veneto in Italy and Catalonia in Spain, and Belgium’s Flemish region may become the next to hold a referendum on independence. The Flanders area of northern Belgium has been claiming its own sovereignty for years, and if it succeeds, Belgium may be no more, along with its being the symbol of a united Europe.

    The 2008 financial crisis has boosted separatism movements in Europe, with rich and developed regions in a number of countries starting to voice their discontent with policies from the capital, and the necessity to feed economically weak regions. However, for such Scotland, Catalonia and Flanders it is also a question rooted in the history of the formation of the countries they belong to.

    READ ALSO: 'Independent Veneto can help EU’

    Dutch-speaking Flanders and French-speaking Wallonia have always been rich and well-developed regions, connected to each other despite language and cultural differences. The artificial creation of the Belgian state put these nations into a difficult situation, forcing them to coexist with people they don’t feel any connections with. Meanwhile, Scotland’s independence vote has inspired the Flemish people with hope to finally create their own state.

    RT: Why does your party Vlaams Belang (“Flemish Interest”) support independence of Flanders?

    Tom van Grieken: We are the only party in Belgium who are for Flemish independence. We think Belgium is dead, it is from the beginning in 1830 an artificial state, where two different people are forced to live together. Although we are only 60 percent of the population of Belgium, we produce 80 percent of our economy. Independent Flanders with Brussels as its capital will be the best for the Flemish people.


    RT: The world’s attention is now chained to the Scottish referendum. After this vote we expect Catalonia to follow the same path. If Flanders was to hold a referendum, what results do you foresee?

    TG: The importance of holding a referendum – it’s not the result which is important. The public debate concerning becoming independent is also important. In my country there is almost no debate on public television about independence, although the population really wants it. For example, in Scotland whether it is “yes” or “no” vote when the referendum results are made public, they already have their victory simply by having a public debate about independence of the people.

    image from www.brusselsjournal.comimage from The Brussels Journal

    RT: Is it mostly for political reasons that the Flemish people seek independence? Does Flanders want to take decisions on its own?

    TG: Of course it’s not our main purpose. The economic part is also very important. Like I have already said, 60 percent of the population of Belgium is Dutch-speaking, Flemish-speaking and they produce 80 percent. Also there are differences between cultures – the Flemish culture is completely different [from] the French culture in the south. We also have different political views: [in] the south [people] are all socialists, social-democrats and the North Flemish part votes for the right and center-right. It would be the best democratic solution to split up Belgium.

    RT: Do you think in case of “yes” vote Flanders, Catalonia and Veneto will be able to survive?

    TG: Of course. Small nation-states can produce easier answers to the difficult questions we all face in Europe. Flanders will not be smaller than independent Ireland or Denmark, or Estonia, or Lithuania. We would be a full-grown nation-state in the heart of Europe.

    RT: How do you see the development of the situation?

    TG: I think it will be like in a marriage. At the moment we are always fighting in every discussion but we should divorce, split up and become good friends, good neighbors. I think it will be our first economic partner to work together with but it’s better to become good friends than stay together in a bad marriage.

    RT: What are the reasons for a marriage to become bad? And what makes bad neighbors?

    TG: What makes bad neighbors? Of course it’s not something among individuals. As you know, my country, Belgium, where I’m forced to live in, holds the world’s record for days without government because we don’t agree on anything. Every political discussion has an aspect which Flemish and Wallonia people disagree on. So it would be better not only for Flanders but also for my French friends in the south.

    RT: Do you think a referendum is needed?

    TG: Yes, of course. We are the only independence party in Belgium. I think referendum is a good thing because if you are afraid of the opinion of your people, then you are not ready to be a leader of your people. So I think we need also in Belgium a referendum concerning the Flemish independence.

  • #2
    I know of at least one Flemish member of the forum. It would interesting to hear his thoughts.

    Comment


    • #3
      Umm, if the Flemish are 60% of the population, wouldn't that be them kicking out the Walloons?

      Comment


      • #4
        First let me place the political party "Vlaams Belang" (VB):

        Belgium has a complex political system, with many layers of government, some even that are parallel on the same level. Also, no nationwide parties exist, only regional parties in either the Flanders or Wallonia besides some small parties as exceptions.

        VB is an extremist right party in the Flemsih region. They combine their regional nationalistic program with a xenophobic program.
        They are being blocked by the other parties in Belgium to participate in any form of government in what's called the "Cordon Sanitaire" (since 1989), to try to get them to die out. This backfired since the other parties basically had to oppose all the items VB stood for, like Flemish independence and the problems a multi-cultural society presents. A few small parties represented the ground between the large
        All this ment they could gradually grow larger, pulling in people on the right side who were discontent with the central or left position of the other parties, making it a collection of Flemish independance suporters, xenophobics and a lot of people who were just fed up with regular parties. Just before their decline, about 7 years ago, they were on the verge of become 'incontournable', impossible to exclude from participating in the government, on some levels.
        About 7 years ago, a then small party started to rise up. The "Nieuw-Vlaamse Alliantie" (N-VA) due to them allying themselves with the Flemish christian democratic party (CD&V) and due to a media campaign by its party leader. They have also have a strong flemish nationalistic course but are more moderate on other right issues. Since the N-VA is able and willing to participate in the political process of govermentbuilding, they"re able to atract lots of the people that previously backed VB.
        Due to this, VB nowadays only represents the most hardcore flemish nationalists and extremest xenophobes. They tried to clean up the party and their appearance (most noticeably by adopting a new name: "Vlaams Blok" to Vlaams Belang" after a xenophobic conviction) but the continued appearance of links to neo-nazi organisations and struggles in the party leadership is harming their ability to attract the voters.
        Today, VB has some MP is different Belgian and European parliaments, but they are at most able to be a small opposition party. They have allied themselves to some of the lesser liked organisations in Europe and around, either by individual actions of MP's or party organised such accepting invites from Assad and trying to form an extreme right fraction in the European parliament. They don't shy away of bold statement, mostly because that's what their electorate wants to hear and they'l never be in a position to fulfill them.

        As for the article:

        The view depicted is an enlarged view of the feeling in Flanders:
        • Yes, there is a big part of the population that wants independence or a fargoing autonomy.
        • Yes, the political and cultural views are different on both sides of the language border.
        • Yes, there is an imbalance between the 2 parts as how much is contributed to Belgium.
        • Yes, Belgium is an artificial country.
        • Yes, political decisions are lengthy and overly complex.


        On the other hand:
        • No, there isn't really any popular voice rising demanding for a referendum.
        • No, there is still a thing called a Belgian identity (partly helped by a new king and the success of the soccer team)
        • No, there is a debate on independence going on for several years now, it just has been marginalised by VB being a "pariah" party that represented the one side. Now with NVA a serious, but realistic debate is being held continuously. It isn't the big one month long intensive thing like in Scotland, but it is happening.
        • No, VB isn't the only independence party. As stated before N-VA has a strong position in it and ever since the independence question has been removed from VB alone, other parties have voiced their support in lesser forms.


        And as to the survivability of Flanders: It is hard to predict. Belgium has mostly a services based economy. Some element of industry, transport and farming. How those will get true such a huge reform and if the benefits will compensate for the inevitable losses can't be predicted till something real is planned.


        Here above I tried to comment on the article in an objective way. If there would be opinions stated then it is either my lack of the finer details of the English language showing or indeed my opinion showing unintentedly. Try to read around them and as soon as i can edit posts, I'll objectify it.

        Below is my personal opinion on the matter:
        I don't believer having a referendum now would be positive for either the country or the independence movement itself. Slow but steady progress is being made to increase regional responsibilities, so far already that most of the budget is allocated to the regions and their responsibilities. So to use it as a catalyst to force more things brought to a regional level, like is likely to happen in Scotland, is unneeded.
        And as to kickstart the discussion, it is being held, although on a low pace and heating up the discussion will make running the country very difficult at a time there is a need for a stable government (which again is already 118 days in the forming, only 424 till a new record ;))
        As for the need of things having to change: I'd say there is a real need to reform the country, to streamline it because by some accounts we 8 governments ruling over (part of) Belgium. Too much for such a small country (a little smaller than Maryland in the US) certainly is you consider all the administrations and ministries it brings with it.
        So concluding: there is no need for a Flemish referendum, the slow evolution that is going on is doing its job to go in the direction most ppl wants to go to.

        Comment


        • #5
          Also: Doesn't Belgium already - in comparison to other countries - have a rather distinct separation between Flanders, Wallonie and (neutral) Brussels, especially since the Flemish Community merged with the Region of Flanders two years ago?

          What Vlaams Belang and other Flemish nationalists (including N-VA) really want is a segregation of the social security systems and separated tax systems between Flemish and other communities. The background for this is effectively the same as why Lega Nord wants an independent North Italy. Unsolidarität.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Skywatcher View Post
            Umm, if the Flemish are 60% of the population, wouldn't that be them kicking out the Walloons?
            Well, if you compare it by landmass, Wallonia has about 55% and Flanders about 44% (Brussels makes up the rest). So then it would be a separation. The numbers are too close to really either one the biggest part so going their own ways might be the best description if Belgium would ever split.

            Originally posted by kato View Post
            Also: Doesn't Belgium already - in comparison to other countries - have a rather distinct separation between Flanders, Wallonie and (neutral) Brussels, especially since the Flemish Community merged with the Region of Flanders two years ago?

            What Vlaams Belang and other Flemish nationalists (including N-VA) really want is a segregation of the social security systems and separated tax systems between Flemish and other communities. The background for this is effectively the same as why Lega Nord wants an independent North Italy. Unsolidarität.
            Yes, Belgium is a federal state where since recently the majority of the budget is controlled by the regions. This has been a process that has started in the 70's and over the course of 6 big reforms the country has been reformed. The merger between the 2 Flemish levels has been there since they both were formed since it mostly goes about the same region (Brussels being the only differance between the 2). Brussels itself is not really neutral. It is supposed to be the capital of Flanders, is enclosed by it (by only less then 4 km at some points) but the majority of people there speaks French. In any negotiation it is always one of the things that causes the most discussion. Flanders and Wallonia are indeed very different. They come from 2 different cultures (Flanders from a Germanic side, Wallonia from a Franco-Latin side), but also geographicly (flat land against hills) and political (right against left).

            Social security and tax systems is indeed one the things that is still decided mostly on a Belgian level and is requested by Flanders to become regional so they can use them as tools for government and indeed also to try to make the transfer of money across the language border diminish. In the past these used to be rather big tbh and made for stupid decisions like the building of a complete pre-subway net in a Walloon city because they build one in Flanders, except that the Walloon one is almost complete unused with many tunnels and stations never used. Also the fact that there is more corruption in Wallonia helps the feeling in Flanders that at least some money is send there in vain.
            Wallonia itself is making a good effort in correcting the discrepancy between the population and productivity numbers with their Marshall-plan so these transfer should diminish over time on their own.

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