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Australia’s Biggest Terror Bust: Public Beheading allegedly planned by ISIS

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  • #16
    Originally posted by sated buddha View Post
    Any information on which countries these guys hailed from originally?
    Mostly Australian born from what I can work out. If you look at the people who have been arrested for planning acts of terrorism over the last decade they have been a mixed bag: white Australian converts; Australian born of Afghan, Lebanese & other Middle Eastern backgrounds; immigrants from France; Somalia & various parts of the Middle East.

    Thus far wannabe Muslim terrorists in Australia have killed 0 people, set of 0 bombs & I don't think they have even set any fires or attacked anyone. The Muslim community as a whole has suffered far more in terms of attacks & threats from outside. In terms of actual acts of terrorism these guys are well behind Croats, Armenians, fascists, communists, white supremacists & anti-abortion fanatics. The last person killed by a terrorist act in Australia died about 20 minutes walk from where I am now at the hands of an anti-abortion fanatic who was planning to kill many more people.

    No simple answers here.
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    • #17
      Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
      I wouldn't think so. FBI/NSA et al missed the biggest terrorist attack in history & the Boston attacks. No service is perfect, but the Brits are doing OK. What attacks have taken place in the UK since the London bombings? Events like that often come as a surprise, but offer a warning not only to the home nation, but to others. Since 9/11 & that round of bombings in Europe, what sort of attacks have taken place? Mostly seem to be either 'lone wolf' or very small scale compared to those bombs.
      Yes. Chance attacks. It reminds me of the IRA's statement after the Brighton hotel bombing - today we were unlucky, but remember we only have to be lucky once – you will have to be lucky always.
      Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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      • #18
        I am reminded of the Urewera terror plots in NZ. There was a priceless moment in court which I reproduce without comment:

        Young: They certainly talked about the possibility of killing people, assassinating the Prime Minister, taking action against George Bush, but those were expressed in extravagant and vague language. There was no evidence of any planning at all.

        Collins: There is reference made to talk of assassinating President Bush. How was that to be achieved in the minds of those whose conversations were being intercepted?

        Young: As I recall, by catapulting a bus on to George Bush's head.

        Justice Randerson: By catapulting a bus on to George Bush's head.

        Collins: And another instance was catapulting a cow on to his ...

        Randerson: Just pause.

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        • #19
          Victoria Police have an appalling record when it comes to shooting people, but when you have two officers stabbed I think we can assume it was justified. One less dickhead in the world I guess.

          An 18-year-old man has been shot dead by counter-terrorism police and two policemen have been stabbed in Melbourne's outer south-east.

          Police said the two officers met the 18-year-old outside the Endeavour Hills police station before he lashed out at the officers with a sharp instrument. He then ran towards the police station and was shot.

          Onlookers at the scene — who did not want to be named — said the dead man had been shouting insults at Prime Minister Tony Abbott and the Australian government in general in the moments before he was shot.

          The two stabbed officers, one from Victoria Police and one from the Australian Federal Police, were working together as part of a joint operation on counter-terrorism between the AFP and Victoria Police. The operation is believed to have been running for the past two to three years.

          Police say the man was involved in an ongoing investigation, but AFP Commander Bruce Giles would not confirm whether the 18-year-old's passport was among those that had been suspended, as had been reported.

          However, he said, reports the man had been displaying Islamic State flags in the lead-up to police contacting him appeared to be correct.

          Victoria Police Assistant Commissioner Luke Cornelius said the man had been asked to come to the police station to discuss behaviour "which had been causing some concern". When the man pulled up at the station he stabbed the two officers as they went to greet him.

          "I want to make it very clear that the individual concerned who has died tonight was invited and did come of his own free will to the police station," he said.

          "Our members had no inkling this individual posed a threat to them and as far as we were concerned it was going to be an amicable discussion about that individual's behaviour.
          Read more: One dead, two stabbed in Endeavour Hills
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          • #20
            BF, if fairness to Vicpol the force did review their use of force policies regarding firearms a few years back and conducted force wide retraining. As a result the number of shooting incidents has decreased significantly albeit the number can never be too low. As for the incident in question if there is any small comfort to be taken from this its that this incident occurred immediately after a call by the ISIS leadership for all out, wholesale attacks on Westerners by its supporters in the US, Europe, and Australia etc. And by 'all out' I mean they were to attack anyone they could, anywhere they could, any way they could. The fact that this 'call to arms' has produced only one incident (tragic as it was) tells us something about the real level of support ISIS has here in Australia and elsewhere.

            Oh I'm sure there are other criminal elements out there thinking about committing similar acts but thinking is not doing. Looked at in this way and you start to get a feel for how marginalized the movement really is here in Australia. I mean I could get could get more takers for free Justin Bieber concert for Gods sake!

            Hopefully some of our more right wing politicians and citizens will also take note of how relatively few local Muslims are actually radicalized and tone down their own rhetoric and/or public abuse of the local Muslim community. As I'm sure your aware such abuse is exactly the response ISIS is hoping for.

            None of the above is meant to minimize the difficulties faced by my Agency and others working to put briefs of evidence around key targets or for that matter disrupting various groups - we have far more targets that we would like obviously. However in the cold light of day we will succeed in our endeavors and they won't if only for reasons previously enunciated.
            Last edited by Monash; 24 Sep 14,, 12:37.
            If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Monash View Post
              BF, if fairness to Vicpol the force did review their use of force policies regarding firearms a few years back and conducted a force wide training. As a result the number of shooting incidents has decreased significantly albeit the number can never be too low.
              Fair call Monash. Things have improved dramatically since the 80s & 90s from an admittedly terrible situation. Still occasional questionable incidents, but few.

              As for the incident in question if there is any small comfort to be taken from this its that this incident occurred immediately after a call by the ISIS leadership for all out, wholesale attacks on Westerners by its supporters in the US, Europe, and Australia etc. And by 'all out' I mean they were to attack anyone they could, anywhere they could, any way they could. The fact that this 'call to arms' has produced only one incident (tragic as it was) tells us something about the real level of support ISIS has here in Australia and elsewhere.
              The only qualifier I would add there is 'so far'. I doubt this guy will be the last.

              Oh I'm sure there are other criminal elements out there thinking about committing similar acts but thinking is not doing. Looked at in this way and you start to get a feel for how marginalized the movement really is here in Australia. I mean I could get could get more takers for free Justin Bieber concert for Gods sake!
              True, but scary as beliebers are (and trust me, they are) it only takes one guy with a knife to send this country into a spasm that will make Cronulla look like a playground tiff.

              Hopefully some of our more right wing politicians and citizens will also take note of how relatively few local Muslims are actually radicalized and tone down their own rhetoric and/or public abuse of the local Muslim community. As I'm sure your aware such abuse is exactly the response ISIS is hoping for.
              I'm afraid you are letting Pollyanna take over. The see every beard & burqa as a terrorist just waiting for an opportunity. Worse, they are using these events to raise their own profiles. They will get louder and the nasty underbelly they pretend not to be encouraging will get nastier....and that is before anything actually happens.

              None of the above is meant to minimize the difficulties faced by my Agency and others working to put briefs of evidence around key targets or for that matter disrupting various groups - we have far more targets that we would like obviously. However in the cold light of day we will succeed in our endeavors and they won't if only for reasons previously enunciated.
              I'm confident in our ability to prevent virtually all attacks, but not 100%. Hope I'm wrong.
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              • #22
                This type of thing drives me crazy. What are we worried about? A group of guys so disorganised that the best they can do is one of them stabbing a cop or two and getting shot? How many homicides were there in Victoria this year? 167 over the 2013/14 year according to the commissioners report.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
                  Victoria Police have an appalling record when it comes to shooting people, but when you have two officers stabbed I think we can assume it was justified. One less dickhead in the world I guess.
                  I think you got lucky again. This guy decides to stab cops in the station...

                  Originally posted by Louis View Post
                  Young: As I recall, by catapulting a bus on to George Bush's head.

                  Justice Randerson: By catapulting a bus on to George Bush's head.

                  Collins: And another instance was catapulting a cow on to his ...

                  Randerson: Just pause.
                  Nowadays, a mere shoe just isn't enough...
                  Last edited by Double Edge; 24 Sep 14,, 13:04.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
                    The only qualifier I would add there is 'so far'. I doubt this guy will be the last. True, but scary as beliebers are (and trust me, they are) it only takes one guy with a knife to send this country into a spasm that will make Cronulla look like a playground tiff ..... I'm confident in our ability to prevent virtually all attacks, but not 100%. Hope I'm wrong.
                    I never meant to imply that that this particular individual would be the last (sadly) just that given the 500,000 plus Muslims currently living here in Australia the number of suspects actually inclined to even try and replicate his actions is vanishingly small when expressed as a % of the total Muslim population. Unfortunately you are also correct about not being able to stop 100% of all attacks (unless we are both very lucky and very alert) but then we can't stop 100% of all other violent crimes either e.g. murders, rapes, armed robberies etc and at the end of the day that's what this type of conduct is - a criminal offense, nothing more, nothing less. Persons committing 'terrorist acts' be they politically, racially or religiously motivated are at the end of the day still just criminals, and our job is just to 'nick em'.

                    For the rest perhaps I have a little more confidence in the general public than you which may be surprising given my profession but there you go. The Cronulla riots required a particular set of circumstances and a particular set of sub-cultures to come together in one place at one time. Given the 'splash back' that occurred in terms of media commentary, legal action and subsequent community outreach I have some confidence that we are not quite so brittle culturally that we cannot survive a few such incidents without major repercussions. This is especially the case as we are continually harping on to our political masters about the dangers of giving groups like ISIS what they want i.e. clear evidence of a backlash against Muslim immigrants to Australia by the rest of the population.

                    While at times these worthies can do a passable imitation of 'Dumb and Dumber' they and their close advisers are generally cluey enough (on both sides of the house) to see the risks inherent in that issue.
                    Last edited by Monash; 24 Sep 14,, 13:57.
                    If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Louis View Post
                      This type of thing drives me crazy. What are we worried about? A group of guys so disorganised that the best they can do is one of them stabbing a cop or two and getting shot? How many homicides were there in Victoria this year? 167 over the 2013/14 year according to the commissioners report.
                      I agree Louis, but you are treating this rationally. Since when were people rational? They get scared about the unknown; about things they think they can't control; about things that the media tells the are scary. During the SARS epidemic in Asia a decade ago (0 cases in Australia) people jumped in their cars (hundreds dead annually) to buy surgical masks.

                      People get scared by random killings. Most homicides are committed by someone known to the victim. People tell themselves (not without reason) that it won't happen to them, even as they convince themselves crime is running rampant. When some guys kills his wife/girlfriend, some criminal gets killed, a child is killed by a abusive relative or a prostitute is killed etc people don't get nearly as scared as when an 'innocent' person is pulled off the streets & murdered. When Jill Meagher was violently raped & killed walking home one night in a 'good' suburb of Melbourne last year over 10,000 people marched in the streets and people I know to be sensible folk felt less safe. When a prostitute was killed in a well known red light district a few weeks later a few hundred people memorialized her & few folk even knew her name (Tracey Connolly). People can imagine themselves being the victim of a 'random' attack like terrorism in a way they find it harder to imagine being a victim of most homicides, even if it is completely unlikely.

                      I'm not scared about what some wannabe terrorist might do in Australia. It has happened before & it will happen again. What scares me is the reaction in the wider community. I'm not as optimistic as Monash. Over the past 20 years I've seen Australia turn into a MUCH nastier nation. Views & behaviours that I thought we had left behind decades ago have been encouraged & stoked by petty, vicious little men & women for the most base reasons. I also fear the increasing erosion of basic legal principles & protections that has been ongoing for over a decade. Our security agencies are hoovering up the sort of powers we would normally associate wit dictatorships & we just have to hope they are used judiciously.The backlash is what I fear, not just for what it might do in itself, but for the impact it will have within the Islamic community. As Monash said, attacks on Muslims (which have been ongoing for decades) and a siege mentality are precisely what ISIS wants & precisely the circumstances that will produce more terrorists. I fear what extremists on all sides will do in response to an attack.
                      Last edited by Bigfella; 24 Sep 14,, 13:45.
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                      • #26
                        Oh I concur. Drives me mad the way the grasshopper can torment the elephant. As for the nastiness and paranoia and authoritarian trend? You're not wrong. All we can do is mock it and hope they feel ridiculous I suppose.

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                        • #28
                          Avoiding tabloid speculation is a good idea


                          Avoiding Green/Left Weekly is a good idea too.
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                          • #29
                            Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
                            Avoiding tabloid speculation is a good idea




                            Avoiding Green/Left Weekly is a good idea too.
                            Why?

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                            • #30
                              Originally posted by Samuels creek View Post
                              Why?
                              Because both are aimed at people who have already made up their minds and therefore aren't especially fussed about the facts & their correct context.
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