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Thread: Japan vows to invest $35 billion over 5 years in India

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by commander View Post
    And something that I don't understand is that British are considered the "better evil" ? In my view British are not Holier than the Japanese. British had committed atrocities to Indians ...not the Japanese. So I take the Japanese devil anyday over the British devil (exception are everywhere but they are exceptions.)
    And on yeah, they did

    Japanese occupation of the Andaman Islands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Chimo

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    Senior Contributor commander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    I am not trying to defend the Japanese here but our Netaji who given better choices could have sided with someone else. Unfortunately if I am not wrong there were only a handful who can oppose a nation as the Britain and many who could were on their camp during the WW1 and 2. These are serious crimes too there's no denying,but considering what the British had done to Mainland India this doesn't even come close.

  3. #63
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by commander View Post
    I am not trying to defend the Japanese here but our Netaji who given better choices could have sided with someone else. Unfortunately if I am not wrong there were only a handful who can oppose a nation as the Britain and many who could were on their camp during the WW1 and 2. These are serious crimes too there's no denying,but considering what the British had done to Mainland India this doesn't even come close.
    Commander, this does give an indication of the what the Japanese are capable of, and the complaints of other countries in the region for their actions in WW2.

    That said, I do not think we need to defend Netaji to anyone. As others have said, this was not our war, though we should be recognize the bravery and heroism of our soldiers who did lay their lives for this.
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  4. #64
    Senior Contributor commander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    Commander, this does give an indication of the what the Japanese are capable of, and the complaints of other countries in the region for their actions in WW2.

    That said, I do not think we need to defend Netaji to anyone. As others have said, this was not our war, though we should be recognize the bravery and heroism of our soldiers who did lay their lives for this.
    I agree with you and the others about what Japan has done to others and could have done to us if they had a chance. It's just the image that is being projected here about the British being the saints that saved India from the evil clutches of Japanese. British were as bad as the Japanese when India was concerned.

    I shouldn't have used the term defending Netaji that does sounds silly. I just feel offended when some of my fellow Indians not even acknowledge the sacrifices of many of our martyrs. IMHO INA is as brave,patriotic as the BIA. INA may not have won many "Victoria crosses" or other gallantry awards but their sacrifices are not be forgotten and is in no way lesser to that of the BIA.

  5. #65
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Really? Over 1 million Indians volunteered for the BIA. Only 45,000 joined the INA.

    You like to ignore historic facts because it does not suit your myth.

    It is the Japanese calling your Netaji a puppet.
    Col,

    And this is how the Allies recognized soldeiers from the colonies (not just the Indians)

    BBC NEWS | Europe | Paris liberation made 'whites only'

    We have had tonnes of films and art material lionizing the heroes of WW2, how many of those talk about the colonial/ colored soldiers? I am sure that the officers who led these men, such as Slim had immense respect for them, but that does not seem to be reflected in the societies these men saved with their blood.

    I would venture to say that to the Allied powers, these brave soldiers were mercenaries in perception and cannon fodder in reality. To us in the sub continent WW2 is a distant war where Europeans and Americans (with some Japanese thrown in) killed each other, which probably (in a way) helped us get rid of the British.

    If you want to keep remembering your own history 60 years ago, that's fine, but you cannot be judgmental on how some other nation halfway across the worlds treats that history. Our history around our Independence is far more important to us.

    A million Indian soldiers volunteered for the army, many times that number were in the streets demanding Independence.

    To you, Bose is part of the history around WW2 ( not important to us).
    To us, Bose is part of the Indepdence Movement (important to us).
    Last edited by antimony; 12 Sep 14, at 22:23.
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by commander View Post
    I am not trying to defend the Japanese here but our Netaji who given better choices could have sided with someone else.
    If you want a historic discussion, given Japanese actions elsewhere, no one else but Bose was allowed the leadership. Bose was someone they can control. Those they cannot control, they torture and put to death, including members of Bose's own India Independence Movement. The same with Puyi and his advisors. The good ones, the Japanese put to the rack and the knife.

    Quote Originally Posted by commander View Post
    Unfortunately if I am not wrong there were only a handful who can oppose a nation as the Britain and many who could were on their camp during the WW1 and 2.
    There was no Indian Tito. That would have been your best choice. Fighting a guerrilla war while refusing allied command and with captured stock. Tito would share intel with the allies in exchange for supplies but not once did he accepted an advisor into his HQ.

    But as I stated, those who were capable of becoming an Indian Tito, the Japanese got rid of.

    Quote Originally Posted by commander View Post
    These are serious crimes too there's no denying,but considering what the British had done to Mainland India this doesn't even come close.
    Do you seriously think that once the Japanese got hold of India that she would let her go? Especially India being rich as she was in resources?

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    That said, I do not think we need to defend Netaji to anyone. As others have said, this was not our war, though we should be recognize the bravery and heroism of our soldiers who did lay their lives for this.
    As I stated, I understand your national myth. While you personally didn't bring this up, this meeting with this Japanese handler is by no means any sign of Modi paying respect to Japan.

    This man is not even a war hero by any Japanese standards. And as I inidicated, Japanese newspapers made scant references to this visit. This was played to Indian domestic audiences, not strengthening Indo-Japanese ties.
    Chimo

  7. #67
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    Mohan Singh (general) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    One of the guys the Japanese got rid of was Cpt Mohan Singh who was originally the commander of the INA. He realized early that IJA only wanted to use INA as a proxy force when they were planning to invade India. With the case of the Japanese, your enemy's enemy is not necessarily your friend. Also remember that IJA also used several surrendered Indian Army soldiers for bayonet practice. You wouldn't have wanted them to rule India considering what they did in China and Indi-China.....
    Seek Save Serve Medic

  8. #68
    Senior Contributor commander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    If you want a historic discussion, given Japanese actions elsewhere, no one else but Bose was allowed the leadership. Bose was someone they can control. Those they cannot control, they torture and put to death, including members of Bose's own India Independence Movement. The same with Puyi and his advisors. The good ones, the Japanese put to the rack and the knife.
    I am not sure I am putting through my points properly (but I am trying the best I can) because we are talking past each other. I am not saying Japanese were the saints, I called them the Japanese devil. You were time and time again trying to portray the British as the saints who saved India and Indians from the evil Japanese empire. That is not the case, we paid for that with the lives of our men. You have also insulted numerous times the soldiers who volunteered for BIA and called them names and what not treating them as bunch of outlaws. THEY WERE NOT. The Japanese may have been controlling Netaji's actions, but Netaji was fighting for the greater good that is freedom for India. You want to view BIA as the only force worthy of mentioning and honor because they fought alongside YOU for YOU, fine but you can't push that views on us.

    Do you seriously think that once the Japanese got hold of India that she would let her go? Especially India being rich as she was in resources?
    I understand very well Japan doesn't have good intentions for India but what could have happened had Netaji succeeded is up for debate and since that hasn't happened let's leave it at that. For all we know Netaji might have had plan B if something of that to happen. He was man known for his wits and had flown across countries escaping the clutches of British many a times. He had made contact with world leaders and had got help , so much so that German's came for his aide and bombed Madras (now Chennai) so that definitely means something.

    As I stated, I understand your national myth. While you personally didn't bring this up, this meeting with this Japanese handler is by no means any sign of Modi paying respect to Japan.

    This man is not even a war hero by any Japanese standards. And as I inidicated, Japanese newspapers made scant references to this visit. This was played to Indian domestic audiences, not strengthening Indo-Japanese ties.
    Modi is playing for the domestic crowd and what's wrong visiting someone who is one of the very few surviving acquaintance of one of India's biggest hero's ?
    Last edited by commander; 12 Sep 14, at 23:56.

  9. #69
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sated buddha View Post
    I think it was a virtuoso performance by Modi ji all around.
    A good performance. Do bear in mind that Modi has a lot of admiration for Abe.

    Now if McCain was in office we'd see similar. McCain on a recent visit was all praise. You should check out his talk.

    Then pray the Republicans find their way out of the wilderness in 2016.

    Quote Originally Posted by sated buddha View Post
    The special meeting with Saichiro Misumi and the reverence and genuine warmth shown. This coming close on the heels of the Indian government wanting to confer on Col. Nizamuddina, the 114-year-old former INA officer and close aide of Netaji, the title of Freedom Fighter officially.
    So far i've noticed he's giving back in charm offensives what we've seen from other leaders. Aussie PM did a good number recently. If Modi can give Shariff's mum a shawl than Abbot will give Modi's mother one too

    Quote Originally Posted by sated buddha View Post
    Prime Minister Narendra Modi met 99-year-old Saichiro Misumi, Netaji's oldest living associate in Japan, in Tokyo, Japan on September 02, 2014.
    And this will not go unnoticed by some of the more hardline vocal minority of the incumbent japanese LDP.

    It's an accident of history that India can have a connection with the IJA in this way.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 13 Sep 14, at 00:19.

  10. #70
    Armchair Worrier Senior Contributor bolo121's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by commander View Post
    And something that I don't understand is that British are considered the "better evil" ? In my view British are not Holier than the Japanese. British had committed atrocities to Indians ...not the Japanese. So I take the Japanese devil anyday over the British devil (exception are everywhere but they are exceptions.)
    I used to think this.
    But then I read about Manchuko, about Korea, about the phillipines, about the dutch east indies (modern indonesia). Above all else I read of China's immense suffering.
    Every asian nation that was occupied by the japanese wept for it.
    He was a brave man who wanted to fight our colonial occupiers yes, but he was still a fool to think the japanese a lesser evil.
    For Gallifrey! For Victory! For the end of time itself!!

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by commander View Post
    I am not sure I am putting through my points properly (but I am trying the best I can) because we are talking past each other. I am not saying Japanese were the saints, I called them the Japanese devil. You were time and time again trying to portray the British as the saints who saved India and Indians from the evil Japanese empire.
    Actually, no, I said the British Indian Army saved India from the IJE. A far different cry than the British. The British Army and the British Indian Army are two seperate entities.

    Actually, I did some more research and what I found is facinating. The myth has overtaken the reality. Today, everyone of you, including my friend Hitesh, has stated that WWII was not India's war. I could not fathom that. 2.5 million men do not volunteer for a war not their own.

    Then it was suggested that these men fought the war because London promised independence. That sounded absurbed. These men could have won India's independence by staying home. Great Britain needed all her Dominions in the War. Without two very specific countries, Canada and India, she would have surrendered. India, obviously for her manpower, but also industries. Canada, for her navy, and a link to the US.

    The simple truth is that WWII was very much India's war. Both native Indian political leadership and the Indian populace supported the war full heartily. There were two myths borned and each trying to compete against the other. The Indian National Congress got Britain to promise independence and Bose was fighting for Indian independence. Both are factual myths. India and Indians chosed to fight WWII, for whatever reasons, but not for reasons that both Ghandi and Bose myths stated.

    Ghandi and the Indian National Congress wanted to trade India's participation in WWII in exchange for independence. The British initially refused and jailed the entire leadership both national and local, almost 100,000 overnight. The rest of the Indian dominated Viceroy, supported the war, for whatever reasons. The munitions orders alone made a lot of Indians rich.

    However, the writing was on the wall for London and in 1942, the Cripps mission was sent to negotiate with the Indian National Congress about her full support for the war in exchange for British withdrawl. It failed. Ghandi wanted a timetable. London cannot guarrantee one since she was not in control of the war and thus do not know when the war will end. In other words, the negotiations failed to get Britain to leave.

    In other words, there was no British promise to leave India. But you all can see where that myth came from.

    As for Bose, I have already commented on. I am not going to repeat myself.

    This being all said, 2.5 million families got the blessing of the Indian National Political leadership to send their sons to war. Two very large myths got sprung up to say otherwise. Neither is true.

    India was in WWII because she wanted to be.


    Quote Originally Posted by commander View Post
    You have also insulted numerous times the soldiers who volunteered for BIA and called them names and what not treating them as bunch of outlaws. THEY WERE NOT.
    Ok, I take it you mean the INA. I remind you of the context. Any prisoners the INA took was automatically turned over to the IJA who then was cooked for dinner.

    Quote Originally Posted by commander View Post
    The Japanese may have been controlling Netaji's actions, but Netaji was fighting for the greater good that is freedom for India.
    No, he was not fighting for the greater good that is the freedom for India because he was not in control. He can't even grant freedom to two little islands.

    Quote Originally Posted by commander View Post
    You want to view BIA as the only force worthy of mentioning and honor because they fought alongside YOU for YOU, fine but you can't push that views on us.
    I'm letting the facts speak for themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by commander View Post
    I understand very well Japan doesn't have good intentions for India but what could have happened had Netaji succeeded is up for debate and since that hasn't happened let's leave it at that. For all we know Netaji might have had plan B if something of that to happen. He was man known for his wits and had flown across countries escaping the clutches of British many a times. He had made contact with world leaders and had got help , so much so that German's came for his aide and bombed Madras (now Chennai) so that definitely means something.
    It means he was a fool.

    Axis power negotiations on the division of Asia during World War II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Quote Originally Posted by commander View Post
    Modi is playing for the domestic crowd and what's wrong visiting someone who is one of the very few surviving acquaintance of one of India's biggest hero's ?
    SB stated that this was paying homage to Japan. I'm stating outright that is a freaking lie.
    Chimo

  12. #72
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    That is not how it is viewed in India, because there is no particular interest or understanding of war crimes of Japan. There is also only a vague realization of Germany's war crimes among the majority of society. I am sure there would be the appropriate amount of shock if Indians understood the details behind the holocaust, but whatever the reason, they don't.

    Unlike the Western world, India's obsession with that particular period of time is with the Freedom Struggle and our Independence, not with WW2, regardless of the sacrifices that BIA soldiers might have made. In that light, Netaji is a hero because he stood up to the British, so he is revered. Was he a puppet? Probably he was, but those facts/ nuances are lost in obscurity for a new nation looking for heroes and giants.
    I understand why he is a hero...to a point, but it is depressing. Ignorance & highly selective history always are, especially when coupled with a political motivation.

    From my POV I don't see Bose as a 'puppet'. I see him as someone who thought he could use a particular set of circumstances to attain what he wanted - Indian independence. I also see him as someone who was an enthusiast for a 'strongman' style of government to the point where he was prepared to overlook its more brutal consequences - some of which he must have been aware of given the experience of many of his own men at the hands of the Japanese.

    I am sure all this is galling for military enthusiasts and historians who would (very rightly) want the sacrifices and heroism of those who actually contributed something to that war, like Gen. Slim, recognized, but that does not enthuse the Indian nation, because its focus was elsewhere. It is certainly remembered in the places where it might actually matter, in the IA units descended from the ones that Slim commanded.
    Bad history is always galling, especially when it sweeps tens of millions of bodies under the carpet in order to pursue a particular narrative.

    Also, I don't think Modi necessarily fawned at the feet of murderers, he played to a domestic gallery as well as international politics, and got investment dollars for his efforts.
    I think he did both. Based on what some of his supporters have posted it is clear to me that he was not simply using regimes he disliked (as some did), but was a 'true believer' in the fascist/militarist model. The scale of disaster that would have wrought on India puts any modern tragedies well in the shade. he is the ideal mythical hero - one who didn't get the opportunity to actually do anything.
    Last edited by Bigfella; 13 Sep 14, at 03:33.


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  13. #73
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    On Antimony, ever noticed that all the Siberian Divisions on parade in Red Square was always caucasians?
    Chimo

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    BF, think you mean Bose, not Modi.
    Chimo

  15. #75
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by commander View Post
    Over 1 million volunteered on the promise that we will get freedom if we aide them and not because of our love to the British. The other deciding factor was that of the peace movement by Gandhiji who was opposing Netaji at the time and the chances of Netaji winning against a modern British military was very grim. I have mentioned it before i equally respect both the men because they both laid their lives for their motherland.
    It was 2.5 million men who volunteered. The men who 'volunteered' for the INA had the alternative of Japanese POW camps which were hellish on a good day & fatal on a bad one, or dying as Japanese slave labour.

    And something that I don't understand is that British are considered the "better evil" ? In my view British are not Holier than the Japanese. British had committed atrocities to Indians ...not the Japanese. So I take the Japanese devil anyday over the British devil (exception are everywhere but they are exceptions.)
    You need to educate yourself. The only reason the Japanese didn't kill millions of Indians was opportunity. When they had the chance to kill your people the did and in huge numbers:

    The abbot of Ban Pong Temple, who was a young novice at the time, related that he often saw the workers passing through Ban Pong and he remembered clearly that there were women and children in the ranks of the Indian workers. It seems that many Tamils thought that Railway work would be similar to the plantation work for which the British Imperial authorities had brought them to Malaya in the first place. Many Tamil women were used in the camp kitchens as cooks and cleaners.

    Most published works estimate the number of Tamil workers at between 80,000 and 100,000. Historian Michael Stenson estimates that the population of the Indian community in Malaya during the war period actually decreased by around 100,000 or nearly 7%. This indicates the seriousness of the Indian labour mobilisation. After the war the Indian Congress Party sent a delegation to Malaya and Thailand, headed by VS Srinivasa Sastri, to investigate the conditions experienced by the Tamils on the Railway. In a letter to Nehru, Sastri mentions 'a lakh' (100,000) of Tamil workers.
    Some of the Allied prisoners were aware that the Asian labourers were suffering even more dreadfully than themselves. We can find many descriptions in the prisoners' diaries, such as the following by British doctor Robert Hardie:

    'A lot of Tamil, Chinese and Malay labourers from Malaya have been brought up forcibly to work on the railway. They were told that they were going to Alor Star in northern Malaya; that conditions would be good - light work, good food and good quarters. Once on the train, however, they were kept under guard and brought right up to Siam and marched in droves up to the camps on the river. There must be many thousands of these unfortunates all along the railway course. There is a big camp a few kilometres below here, and another 2 or 3 kilometres up. We hear of the frightful casualties from cholera and other diseases among these people and of the brutality with which they are treated by the Japanese. People who have been near the camps speak with bated breath of the state of affairs - corpses rotting unburied in the jungle, almost complete lack of sanitation, frightful stench, overcrowding, swarms of flies. There is no medical attention in these camps, and the wretched natives are of course unable to organise any communal sanitation.'
    http://www.twnside.org.sg/title2/res...niversary1.htm

    So, up to 100,000 Indian men, women & children killed under the most appalling conditions while Bose was playing soldier. If the Japanese had the opportunity to occupy any significant part of India the death toll would have been in the millions.

    As for the 'lesser evil', once again you need to educate yourself. My people were invaded by the English centuries before yours even knew they existed. They suffered more & for longer than yours ever did. Members of my family were torn from their families & sent half way around the world effectively as slave labour. Part of my homeland is still occupied. I don't need any lectures on British 'evil'.

    In late 1941 my Uncle's unit was overrun by the Japanese in southern Malaya in a battle where many Indians also fought. He & most of the men escaped. Many of those who were captured, including the wounded, were shot & bayonetted on the spot. This wasn't a one off. This was normal Japanese behaviour repeated all over their Empire on people of every race, Indians included. In its short time as an imperial power japan came close to matching Britain's record of brutality over centuries. Their plans for the peoples they occupied didn't include even the limited freedoms Indians had under the British.

    You have every right to dislike & even hate the British, but don't let that get in the way of a clear understanding of what the Japanese did & what they had in store for your people had they succeeded. Bose would have been a powerless puppet left to watch while his people were enslaved & slaughtered. I doubt he understood this - men like him always think they will be different. You don't have that excuse. The evidence is there if you care to see it.

    It is a pity that Modi is so determined to play to the ignorant mob.
    Last edited by Bigfella; 13 Sep 14, at 03:36.


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