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  • Let me reverse this for you. How the hell are the Chinese going to keep Tibet AFTER losing Lop Nor? Please look at the map to understand what I'm trying to impress on you.

    By losing, I mean Tibetans, Indians, Martians.
    Chimo

    Comment


    • Originally posted by sated buddha View Post
      Regardless of the "official" Indian line

      Tibet belongs to the Tibetans.
      So every time there is a problem there the Chinese think we were up to it.

      Wanted to post this earlier, Chinese have long memories. Though Asia as a whole is still influenced by what happened in the 40s.



      Xi keeps tradition alive, meets family of Dr Kotnis | DH | Sept 19 2014

      It has been a tradition with visiting Chinese leaders to meet the family of Dr Dwarkanath Kotnis and President Xi Jinping followed it by meeting the sister of the famed physician and recalling "the fine representative who gave his precious life in China".

      For the meeting, the Chinese Consulate-General in Mumbai specially flew Kotnis's 93-year-old sister Manorama, who is wheel chair bound, and her family to Delhi so that Xi could meet and felicitate her.

      Dr Kotnis, who is revered in China for his contributions, was an Indian physician who died while treating Chinese soldiers during the second China-Japan war in 1942.

      "In the critical hour of Chinese people's war with Japanese aggression, the Indian medical mission travelled thousands of miles to assist us and fought shoulder to shoulder with people of my father's generation against Japanese fascists. The fine representative, young Dr Kotnis gave his precious life in China.


      "General Mao Zedong once wrote in his honour 'The Chinese army has got a helping hand, the nation a friend. Let us always bear in mind his international spirit,'" Xi said, remembering Kotnis.

      Appreciating the gesture of the Chinese leadership who keeps meeting the family till date, Manorama, who has partially lost her vision, said, "Even when a new Consul- General takes charge in Mumbai, he comes to visit the family of Dr Kotnis."

      "Till now, our extended family has visited China 20 times. They have maintained the warmth for all these years," said Rajan Borkar, son-in-law of Kotnis's elder brother, whose family now takes care of Manorama.

      Kotnis went to China in 1937 as part of an Indian medical mission after China was invaded by Japan. He served on the battlefield and saved lives of many Chinese soldiers. After working for four years in China, he fell ill and died at a young age of 32.

      In China, Kotnis fell in love and married a Chinese nurse who worked with him. Quo Qinglan, who remained in China, died in 2012 in the city of Dalian. They also had a son, who was studying to become a doctor but he died when he was 24.

      This is not a first time that a visiting Chinese leader has met the family of Kotnis. Last year, Premier Li Keqiang had met his family.

      In 2006, when Chinese President Hu Jintao visited India, he met the family. In the past, the Kotnis family met with then premier Zhou Enlai in 1950, followed by president Jiang Zemin in 1996.

      Honouring Jyotiskar Mohapatra and Mohan Reddy of the India China Friendship Association, the Chinese President said such associations help strengthen the friendship between the two countries.
      Last edited by Double Edge; 21 Sep 14,, 11:42.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
        Real nice fucking assurance to the Chinese NOT to attack.
        Does not change facts. Or make a land grab right.

        I said Tibet was for the Tibetans.

        Not for Indians. But equally not for the Chinese.

        I am not a military historian like many here, but what I can and do remember from school history is that the Indian and Chinese civilizations have lived side by side for millennia.

        And in all that time, never has an Indian army marched on China or a Chinese army on India.

        Until recently.

        Historically as well as in the current circumstances therefore India and China need to have a buffer zone in between to absorb any negative energy and prevent friction.

        Tibet needs to reclaim its position in between the two.

        Till that happens, there cannot be complete peace between China and India. And India knows from Kashmir the capacity for a sensitive restive region and populace to suck up and absorb military resources. Resources that could be redeployed elsewhere. So there is really no logical reason for India to not pay lip service to China's claim on Tibet, while doing what it can to keep Tibet on the boil. Nothing personal.

        Comment


        • OoE, I have a question for you, if I may please. I found your insight about the dynamics between India, Russia, China, Pakistan, and the US very interesting and educative.

          It seems that India's nuclear arsenal is divided between prioritizing targets on two fronts, Pakistan and China. China on its side must have similar targeting of its arsenal towards India, Russia, and the US?

          So what about Pakistan? Does it get to comfortably direct its entire arsenal towards us, and only us, or does their's get divvied up too like say some for Israel maybe? Anyone else?

          Comment


          • I'm pretty sure that anyone that has nuclear tipped ballistic missiles also possesses the technical prowess to pre-program a whole slew of potential targeting scenarios into them.

            In the case of the US, Russia, and China, having ICBMs with extremely long ranges means that a missile sitting in China targeting San Diego could be quickly re-targeted to hit New Delhi. Similarly, heavy bombers that can be refueled in the air can pretty well go where they please. So in that sense, the big players in the nuclear club aren't too handicapped by geography. However the Russians may not want to use all their bombs on China and leave themselves defenseless against the US.

            In the case of Pakistan, they don't have any nuclear delivery platforms with global range. In fact, it appears that the maximum distance they can throw a nuke is about 700-1000 km. So I would say it is a pretty safe bet that India would be on the receiving end of everything they have unless they get pissed at someone else in the immediate region. I don't know how Pakistan feels about Israel, but considering their missiles don't have the range to hit Israel it is rather a moot point where nukes are concerned.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by sated buddha View Post
              Does not change facts. Or make a land grab right.
              Does not change Chinese threat perception one single iota.

              Originally posted by sated buddha View Post
              I said Tibet was for the Tibetans.
              Let's stick to the real world.

              Originally posted by sated buddha View Post
              Not for Indians. But equally not for the Chinese.
              The Chinese says otherwise and the ground reality is they owned Tibet. You will need an army to change that.

              Originally posted by sated buddha View Post
              I am not a military historian like many here, but what I can and do remember from school history is that the Indian and Chinese civilizations have lived side by side for millennia.
              They didn't teach you that at one time, Tibet conquered a Chinese dynasty.

              Originally posted by sated buddha View Post
              And in all that time, never has an Indian army marched on China or a Chinese army on India.
              Well, that really depends on your definition, doesn't it? Timur who claimed all of the old Mongol Empire, including the Yuan Dynasty, aka China, sacked Dehli.

              Indian Regiments fought two Opium Wars, sacked Beijing during the Boxer Rebellion and robbed Qing Dynasty Tibet blind with the Husband Expedition.

              Now, of course you say would say that's the British. I would point out to you that Chinese artifacts stolen during those expeditions are now sitting in Indian Museums as Spoils of War and are not returning them to China anytime soon.

              Originally posted by sated buddha View Post
              Historically as well as in the current circumstances therefore India and China need to have a buffer zone in between to absorb any negative energy and prevent friction.

              Tibet needs to reclaim its position in between the two.

              Till that happens, there cannot be complete peace between China and India. And India knows from Kashmir the capacity for a sensitive restive region and populace to suck up and absorb military resources. Resources that could be redeployed elsewhere. So there is really no logical reason for India to not pay lip service to China's claim on Tibet, while doing what it can to keep Tibet on the boil. Nothing personal.
              You really do have a thick head. Get this. The Chinese were willing to start WWIII to keep Tibet. That was the reality. Saying otherwise. Wishing otherwise does not allow you to deal with the situation. Recognizing the ground realities and knowing where the decision points are, allows you the chance to avert the outcome.

              Within this scenario of China attacking India, there were two key points that would avoid WWIII.

              1) Convince the Soviets not to invade Pakistan
              2) Convince the Chinese that there is no threat to Tibet.

              And to all, there is a misunderstanding of how these scenarios are to function. All you saw was the US nuking India but there are diplomatic, political, and military decision points that were identified and played out to a conclusion. The worst case is a nuke war but there are other outcomes possible that were not examined because it isn't as fun.

              Now, I'm going to see the wheels in your heads spin.
              Chimo

              Comment


              • Originally posted by sated buddha View Post
                So what about Pakistan? Does it get to comfortably direct its entire arsenal towards us, and only us, or does their's get divvied up too like say some for Israel maybe? Anyone else?
                Isn't India enough?

                And you have a big time misconception. China's nuclear arsenal is not directed against India, the US, and Russia. It is directed at India OR the US OR Russia. At ~225 warheads, China doesn't have anything left to spare after a nuke exchange. Espeically against an arsenal in the 1000s. China can ONLY take on one nuclear enemy. After that, she is spent. She would have nothing left against a second enemy.
                Chimo

                Comment


                • Originally posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
                  I'm pretty sure that anyone that has nuclear tipped ballistic missiles also possesses the technical prowess to pre-program a whole slew of potential targeting scenarios into them.

                  In the case of the US, Russia, and China, having ICBMs with extremely long ranges means that a missile sitting in China targeting San Diego could be quickly re-targeted to hit New Delhi. Similarly, heavy bombers that can be refueled in the air can pretty well go where they please. So in that sense, the big players in the nuclear club aren't too handicapped by geography. However the Russians may not want to use all their bombs on China and leave themselves defenseless against the US.

                  In the case of Pakistan, they don't have any nuclear delivery platforms with global range. In fact, it appears that the maximum distance they can throw a nuke is about 700-1000 km. So I would say it is a pretty safe bet that India would be on the receiving end of everything they have unless they get pissed at someone else in the immediate region. I don't know how Pakistan feels about Israel, but considering their missiles don't have the range to hit Israel it is rather a moot point where nukes are concerned.
                  Their current operational Missiles have ranges of 2500 kilometers - Shaheen 2, and are supposedly in development of a 4500 Km missile.

                  Comment


                  • Thanks for the correction, for some reason I was thinking their 2500 km missile wasn't operational yet.

                    Comment


                    • Meanwhile in China.... Always thought the Chinese government had iron grip on it's army. It might be the Indian media that is exaggerating facts for some more clicks and ad dollars but still worth a read,

                      Xi Jinping reshuffles, scolds PLA brass amid stand-off with India

                      BEIJING: Chinese president Xi Jinping is believed to have reshuffled the top positions in the People's Liberation Army promoting three generals known to be close to him, according to reports emerging on Monday.

                      The move came in the midst of a stand-off in the Indian border, which has raised questions about a possible disconnect between the PLA and the country's central authorities.

                      The president also gave a dressing down to the military brass at a meeting, which took place in the presence of Fang Fenghui, chief of the PLA general staff, convened on Sunday.

                      "All PLA forces should follow the instructions of President Xi Jinping, also chairman of the Central Military Commission (CMC), and update their operations to meet new goals and missions set by the CMC," an official statement relayed by the Xinhua news agency, said.

                      For India, the most important issue is whether repeated border intrusions including the one that took place during Xi's recent India tour, are directly ordered by the presidential team or a section of PLA brass is doing its own bidding. The development in the last two days indicate that the president, though the supreme commander of armed forces, is trying to further reinforce his authority, observers said.

                      This is curious because the PLA has publicly expressed vows accepting the authority of the Communist Party, of which Xi in the general secretary, since he came to power early last year. This has been followed by a high-pressure crackdown against corruption, which also covered former military officers.

                      The crackdown is believed to have made Xi's position unassailable in all sections of the country.

                      South China Morning Post on Monday reported that senior military officers have been target by the anti-corruption drive ordered by the Chinese president. Xi has also ordered a reshuffle of the top positions in the PLA and the Central Military Commission, of which he is the chairman, it said.

                      The official statement about Xi's meeting with military commanders on Sunday showed that the president is extremely unhappy with the chain of command in the forces. It talked about the need "to improve the efficiency of military command under new circumstances". Xi also emphasized the need for "streamlining the operational headquarters of all PLA forces" with revised protocols.

                      "The meeting focused on streamlining the operational headquarters of all PLA forces with information technology and revised several important protocols," the statement said.

                      But the Chinese foreign ministry insisted on Monday that there was no need to have "unnecessary suspicion" on both sides on the border issue. Leaders of the two countries have "reached an important consensus on politically resolving the border issue through friendly mechanism," Hua Chunyin, the ministry's spokeswoman said Monday.

                      "China and India have sufficient capacity and confidence to maintain peace and tranquillity in the boundary areas," she said.
                      Source: Xi Jinping reshuffles, scolds PLA brass amid stand-off with India

                      Comment


                      • I can't tell if there is a connect here at all.

                        PLA reshuffle strengthens Xi Jinping's hand in corruption fight | SCMP | Sept 22 2014

                        Part of the reshuffle is also to rejuvenate and reform the world's largest military. Despite double-digit budget growth, the discipline and fighting capabilities of the PLA have been questioned by overseas observers.

                        The PLA has not fought a war since the conflict with Vietnam in the 1980s and its reputation has been tainted by corruption and a lack of vigorous training. Since Xi took power in 2012, he has stressed the importance of maintaining a combat-ready army.
                        hmm...
                        Last edited by Double Edge; 23 Sep 14,, 01:27.

                        Comment


                        • Either the media is paranoid about China or there is something that's happening behind the curtains,

                          Source: Xi Jinping: People's Liberation Army should be combat ready to win a regional war

                          Xi Jinping: People's Liberation Army should be combat ready to win a regional war


                          Chinese President Xi Jinping today asked the People's Liberation Army (PLA) to be combat ready to win a "regional war" and make sure that all decisions from the central leadership are strictly followed.

                          "Headquarters of PLA forces must have absolute loyalty and firm faith in the Communist Party of China, guarantee a smooth chain of command and make sure all decisions from the central leadership are fully implemented," said Xi, chairman of the Central Military Commission (CMC) and the General Secretary of the Communist Party of China (CPC).
                          "Headquarters of all PLA forces should improve their combat readiness and sharpen their ability to win a regional war in the age of information technology," Xi, who returned from India last week after a three-day visit, was quoted as saying by the state-run Xinhua news agency.

                          Though this is not the first time that Xi has asked the PLA to be ready for a "regional war", his statement assumes significance in the context of repeated incursions into Indian territory along the Line of Actual Control which cast a shadow during his visit.

                          All PLA forces should follow the instructions of President Xi and update their operations to meet new goals and missions set by the CMC, an official statement said.

                          It is not yet clear why the emphasis was made on absolute loyalty and to follow the orders to ensure smooth chain of command.

                          Xi's directives come in the midst of a standoff between the PLA and Indian troops in Chumar area in Ladakh region along the Line of Actual Control (LAC).
                          The standoff took a new turn yesterday with the PLA pitching seven tents well within the Indian territory and showing no signs of withdrawing from the territory.
                          Xi, 61, acquired the image of China's most powerful leader after Deng Xiaoping, who succeeded Mao, as he headed the Presidency, the CPC and the military from day one of coming to power unlike his predecessor Hu Jintao.
                          Since then, Xi has reshuffled the military postings of the generals loyal to him at the top and removed and prosecuted some top PLA generals for corruption.

                          Yesterday, General Fang Fenghui, PLA chief, said in a statement that all PLA forces follow the instructions of President Xi who is also the chairman of the CMC, which is the overall high command of the Chinese military.

                          Fang said the forces should update their operations to meet new goals and missions set by the CMC.

                          Meanwhile, the PLA chiefs of staff met in Beijing to discuss how to improve the efficiency of military command under new circumstances. Fang attended the meeting.


                          Update: Adding the source link and the below picture for what's happening in LAC,

                          Attached Files
                          Last edited by commander; 23 Sep 14,, 16:46. Reason: missed source

                          Comment


                          • Hehehahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Ahhhhh, this old China hand certainly read things differently.

                            Update your operations - translation: Your budgets are being cut. Find ways to make this work.

                            Generals retiring - translation: Complain and you're fired.

                            Militaries around the world should know this. I can just hear the Bde's SrCols now. Why don't they just disband us? It would have been damned simpler than this dog and pony show.
                            Chimo

                            Comment


                            • I wonder why he used the media. If there was a genuine need to emphasize to the PLA the need for increased conformity to CMC policies, he could have done that directly.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by DarthSiddius View Post
                                I wonder why he used the media. If there was a genuine need to emphasize to the PLA the need for increased conformity to CMC policies, he could have done that directly.
                                Maybe as to let the neighbouring countries know that if it comes down to engage in a war China will not hesitate to do so ? Also a media release creates far more ripples than ordering PLA from within IMO.

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