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Thread: Japan vows to invest $35 billion over 5 years in India

  1. #16
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by commander View Post
    But no nuke deal with the Japanese.

    Source

    The Americans are throughly confused, they offer us a gift, we have a royal fight over whether to accept it and then when we do decide to accept it, we pass laws that make it inoperable. The French refuse to say no. Aussies are making the right noises when it comes to fuel supplies.

    is it the liability act getting in the way. No power station seller is going to agree to the terms in it basically in case of operator fault the maker is liable as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duellist View Post
    I wonder if Tokyo will consider giving Delhi access to tech from the Oyashio or even Soryu sub programs, among other things?
    This is how the two currently refer to each other

    In the words of the Japanese prime minister, Shinzo Abe, “a strong India is in the best interest of Japan, and a strong Japan is in the best interest of India.” And now Modi has underlined that “without Japan, India is incomplete and without India, Japan is incomplete”, he said. “Japan has hardware, India has software… together we (India and Japan) can make miracles.”
    When it changes to "higher than mountains, deeper than oceans and sweeter than various ingredients" maybe things will go as you say
    Last edited by Double Edge; 07 Sep 14, at 13:45.

  2. #17
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    Double Edge,

    I'd imagine there's more developments to come, from the rhetoric between the two, and more. The key issues are the nuclear liability law and the strong opposition to Indian nuclear testing, particularly from the Japanese. The real significance of these developments is that the Modi government seems to understand how to employ regional rivalries and foreign commercial interests in India's interests, rather than allowing India to be swept up in the undercurrents of other powers strategies. Very good start, and it may lead to the boost in infrastructure that leads to Chinese growth in about 2 years.

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    Duellist, my guess is DE is being sarcastic as much as I was a year before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Duellist, my guess is DE is being sarcastic as much as I was a year before.
    I got the sarcasm, don't worry haha. It'll no doubt be fun watching rhetoric go ''taller than mountains, deeper than oceans''. However my point pertained to a serious undercurrent. Verbal hyperbole aside, we are looking at the emergence of a new paradigm in how Delhi does business- the utilisation of leverage . It will be interesting to see if the Chinese and Americans match these investments.

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    /\/\/\ You can mark my words. Chinese I'm not so sure. Americans, they'd outmatch investments from any single Nation.

  6. #21
    Senior Contributor commander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    But no nuke deal with the Japanese.

    is it the liability act getting in the way. No power station seller is going to agree to the terms in it basically in case of operator fault the maker is liable as well.
    Maybe this distrust stemmed after the Bhopal incident (even though it is a completely different to a Nuke one) and how even now the perpetrators of that are not yet brought before justice who got away by arm twisting our government. Some one needs to take responsibility. IMHO eventhough things are complex when it comes to Nuclear plants and such, there should be some responsibility from the manufacturer side.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by commander View Post
    Maybe this distrust stemmed after the Bhopal incident (even though it is a completely different to a Nuke one) and how even now the perpetrators of that are not yet brought before justice who got away by arm twisting our government. Some one needs to take responsibility. IMHO eventhough things are complex when it comes to Nuclear plants and such, there should be some responsibility from the manufacturer side.
    IIRC, UCC paid $470 million dollars in 1989 (which would be close to a billion dollars today) to settle the litigation. Knowing Indian politicos, I wonder how much have actually flowed to the affected people's bank accounts. And we still keep witch-hunting US for that.

    As about the perpetrators, there is no way the head guy would have known any malfunction in the plant unless technicians communicated that to him. Very little is known about it. And going by the turn of events in India in the last decade, where witch-hunting has taken precedence over lawful logic, I'd not be surprised over the lies propagated in social media and trolls having a field day.

    Guess what, 1989 - US a Superpower, and UCC paid $470 millions to settle the litigation. Are the Americans really that docile or was that an example of human rights/industrial disaster compensation they set an example for.
    Last edited by Oracle; 06 Sep 14, at 19:55.

  8. #23
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    Oracle,

    As I said, leverage. The CCP is no monolith, and while the PLA may see India as a potential security threat, I doubt Beijing will willingly let the Japanese dominate investments in India. Especially with a lot of money to potentially be made, given the size of the Indian market. The Americans, like everyone else, will look at how Modi deals with infra and clearences before they invest big time, IMO. Let's see how the Obama Modi meet goes on that.

  9. #24
    Senior Contributor commander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    IIRC, UCC paid $470 million dollars in 1989 (which would be close to a billion dollars today) to settle the litigation. Knowing Indian politicos, I wonder how much have actually flowed to the affected people's bank accounts. And we still keep witch-hunting US for that.

    As about the perpetrators, there is no way the head guy would have known any malfunction in the plant unless technicians communicated that to him. Very little is known about it. And going by the turn of events in India in the last decade, where witch-hunting has taken precedence over lawful logic, I'd not be surprised over the lies propagated in social media and trolls having a field day.

    Guess what, 1989 - US a Superpower, and UCC paid $470 millions to settle the litigation. Are the Americans really that docile or was that an example of human rights/industrial disaster compensation they set an example for.
    Let's consider that this has happened in the US, what could have been the case ? From your post all I can understand is you can be responsible for the death of thousands and can still get away if you pay out money to the victims ? I understand the CEO of a company will not necessarily know things happening in one of his offices someplace in the world. But he is responsible for what his company does and that's why he is the head of the company.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duellist View Post
    I doubt Beijing will willingly let the Japanese dominate investments in India.
    China got no leverage as far as India is concerned, considering there are strict entry barriers for Chinese investments.

    Gotta go and attend a barbecue. Tomorrow would be next, this day will die tonight.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by commander View Post
    Let's consider that this has happened in the US, what could have been the case ?
    Americans in this case will get huge compensation. You can blame it on Indian laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by commander View Post
    From your post all I can understand is you can be responsible for the death of thousands and can still get away if you pay out money to the victims ?
    Really? You understood that? An industrial disaster happens, no one knows who's at fault and you're telling me the CEO sitting 1000's of miles away is responsible.

    Oh! And btw, this indeed is possible in India, because we are corrupt to the core.

    Quote Originally Posted by commander View Post
    I understand the CEO of a company will not necessarily know things happening in one of his offices someplace in the world. But he is responsible for what his company does and that's why he is the head of the company.
    And so the compensation. Who would they willingly part with a billion dollars in today's money for a 3rd world, sick, inefficient, and corrupt country like India.

  12. #27
    Senior Contributor commander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Americans in this case will get huge compensation. You can blame it on Indian laws.



    Really? You understood that? An industrial disaster happens, no one knows who's at fault and you're telling me the CEO sitting 1000's of miles away is responsible.

    Oh! And btw, this indeed is possible in India, because we are corrupt to the core.



    And so the compensation. Who would they willingly part with a billion dollars in today's money for a 3rd world, sick, inefficient, and corrupt country like India.
    Really ? Just too give a simple example the quality of goods that you get in India sold by reputed brands had mostly been that of inferior quality compared to those sold in more developed countries just because they can get away with it. I know our system is corrupt but that doesn't give them right to just do anything that they want and get away with it. When setting a plant such as that in Bhopal do you think the heads of the company will know nothing ? I mean absolutely nothing ?

    Yeah they couldn't part away with that money because they have been doing charity work pumping their hard earned money in India ? They were here to do business . It is them who employed their workers not the Indian government. So all in all IT IS the responsibility of a company for it's misdoings and as a head of the company he is equally responsible.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by commander View Post
    Really ? Just too give a simple example the quality of goods that you get in India sold by reputed brands had mostly been that of inferior quality compared to those sold in more developed countries just because they can get away with it. I know our system is corrupt but that doesn't give them right to just do anything that they want and get away with it. When setting a plant such as that in Bhopal do you think the heads of the company will know nothing ? I mean absolutely nothing ?

    Yeah they couldn't part away with that money because they have been doing charity work pumping their hard earned money in India ? They were here to do business . It is them who employed their workers not the Indian government. So all in all IT IS the responsibility of a company for it's misdoings and as a head of the company he is equally responsible.
    You are a young guy. Probably you are enjoying a Saturday night with friends. What I'd want to request you is not to get emotional and go by facts.

    UCC was the owner of Union Carbide India Limited (UCIL). GoI controlled banks & Indians held a 49.1% stake in the company.

    Now, let's get back to topic.

  14. #29
    Senior Contributor commander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    You are a young guy. Probably you are enjoying a Saturday night with friends. What I'd want to request you is not to get emotional and go by facts.

    UCC was the owner of Union Carbide India Limited (UCIL). GoI controlled banks & Indians held a 49.1% stake in the company.

    Now, let's get back to topic.
    Yeah well that's another way of dealing with my so called "emotional" posts by calling me young. Anyway young =! stupid.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by commander View Post
    Yeah well that's another way of dealing with my so called "emotional" posts by calling me young. Anyway young =! stupid.
    See, what I said? You really are emotional.

    What is it that you want to be done? You want the CEOs of companies to be lynched? Hanged? Sentenced for life in prison? What?

    Disasters happen, be it industrial, natural or man-made. Last year in Uttarakhand flash floods, tens of people died, should we then have lynched one or the other God from a population of 33 crore? INS Sindhurakshak sank after explosion caused by fire on board, should we have lynched the Navy chief? Scores of people die in India every year due to Railway accidents, who should have been lynched then? The Union Railway Minister or the people who died on the tracks as the Railways have the Right of way?

    Here, Cancer behind 70% deaths in India's atomic energy hubs. Who's to blame?

    IIRC, you have started working in the IT industry right? What does your TL say about bugs? Can you provide a code that is 100% error free? No you can't. You do your best and expect SLA's have been met. The same way industrial plants are designed and built by humans. There is just no way that it can be 100% error free. Japan is a technology superpower, and even with the highest standards of safety, they had the Fukushima nuclear disaster.

    You have taken up the Bhopal Gas leak, but have failed to provide a way on how to go about disasters as such. For starters, we cannot go about hanging Businessmen for a disaster. The punishment part comes last after diligent investigation. The immediate need in case of disasters of any kind is rehabilitation of the victims and monetary compensation. Right now, our laws need to be tweaked to make our country one of the friendliest investor destinations. The correct way would be to ensure safeguards of the highest degree when a(any) plant is set-up. Compensatory details worked out and included in the contract incase of unforeseen accidents. And when accidents do happen, it needs to be investigated who's at fault. It might come to light that it was the technician who sat on an issue instead of reporting it to the higher-ups or a mice who ate through cables. For all reasons, laws need to be invoked if someone's at fault.

    And as I have provided in post # 28, if anyone has to be blamed than it should have been the guys on duty that unfortunate night in the plant (after a thorough investigation), then the GoI, then the GoI controlled/Nationalised banks, then the Indians who had a stake in the company, and lastly the CEO (if it can be proved he sat over safety issues). We don't have to look too far for best practices, let's look at USFDA who have fined Sun Pharma and Ranbaxy as an example.

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