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  • #46
    Au contraire,the Russians are massively outnumbered in Europe.By Eastern Europeans armies alone.Forget the rest of NATO.
    It's true we have neither the capability, nor the desire to march on Moscow.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Sitting Bull View Post
      Another thing to remember is that NATO does not simply exist as a Russophobic alliance; the conflicts NATO has been involved are in other parts of the world and have been nowhere near Russia's borders. On paper, yeah NATO has gobbled up Hungary, the Czechs, Poland, Romania etc., but it's not like there has been a substantial buildup by NATO on Russia's border. If war broke out tomorrow NATO forces are still at a big numerical disadvantage in the East.
      disagree that NATO has gobbled up any ex WP countries - these countries went to NATO out of fear of what had happened under CCP all those years ago - and because the WP "economic model" as such was busted. They all worked that out as soon as they were able to get out of their own countries and go travelling without being followed or put under duress etc...

      re military capacity - NATO has more than enough military overmatch. whats lacking is the mindset that there is a need to "re-gird our loins" to militarily counter Putin. Everyone was hoping that he was just posturing for local consumption but wasn't going to turn into an arsehole

      now that the reality bubble has been burst, I think you'll find that military thinking will escalate - and no matter how screwed some euro economies are, they can still pull that off as a bloc without compromising their economies - especially as the expense can be load balanced

      for all the BS coming out of the russian exec and their apologists, its been pretty damn apparent that sanctions are having an effect as all his counter sanctions have been fundamentally watered down some days later when his economic analysts point out how vulnerable the russian economy and industrial base is.

      whats been lacking in the EU has been political will and intent to understand that Putin is not going to change, that all the feelgood hopes and aspirations about russia don't apply under putin - and that russia under putin only respects force.

      until obama and the EU work out that they have to put their cold war reagan/thatcher/german chancellor hats on and over respond and show committment of intent - well, he will continue to misunderstand that the reluctance to reposture is not about weakness but about not wanting to go back to the late 70's blunt force solution model. clearly he doesn't get it and doesn't think that the EU or NATO will stop him regathering a faux iron curtain to relive the CCP glory days.

      russian negotiation is not about partners for peace - its about pushing forward until visibly stopped.

      NATO has the reality check forming over the last few days, but some of the major partners need to get off the box and get on with the programme and realise that if they want russia back in partners for peace then they need to let Putin know that the alternative can be dialed back up far faster and far more effectively than what a Putin modelled russia can ever hope to do.
      Last edited by gf0012-aust; 07 Sep 14,, 00:17.
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      • #48
        Originally posted by Mihais View Post
        Au contraire,the Russians are massively outnumbered in Europe.By Eastern Europeans armies alone.Forget the rest of NATO.
        It's true we have neither the capability, nor the desire to march on Moscow.
        Outnumbered by who? I am looking at just Poland and the Baltics right now, and that looks like a really short war. The Russian leads in artillery and fixed-wing aircraft are just mind-boggling. I'm not sure 50-60 aircraft are enough to go against the whole Russian air force, unless they are all Iron Man suits.
        "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

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        • #49
          A recent article in the New York Times quoted Putin as saying the following.

          Mr. Putin cited the United States’ continued development of a missile defense system in Europe and Alaska as a major threat facing Russia, but not the only one.

          “There are other things that bother us,” Mr. Putin told senior officials who were meeting to discuss a 10-year arms-buying program.

          “Military space exploration continues, the issue of the use of non-nuclear strategic weapons is being studied and so on and so on,” he continued. “A lot of threats are emerging. Recently, as you know, there was a decision made to expand NATO forces in Eastern Europe.”
          While I am aware of most of what Putin referred to, I don't believe I've heard of non-nuclear strategic weapons. Does anyone have any idea what he is talking about?

          I think of a strategic weapon as one that destroys the source of an opponent's power rather than tools that are used to implement it. In practice that seems like cities, communications infrastructure, transportation systems, etc. In other words, nukes.

          My initial thought was that he was talking about the Prompt Global Strike initiative, but a hypersonic conventional weapon, while undoubtedly useful, won't be flattening any cities. Does its long range and fast travel time qualify it as "strategic"?

          What am I missing here?

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          • #50
            "...What am I missing here?"

            Ummm...maybe that Putin feels no obligation to elaborate or clarify?

            I love his assumptive close-

            "Because I've said this it must therefore be true"
            "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
            "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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            • #51
              Originally posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
              I don't believe I've heard of non-nuclear strategic weapons. Does anyone have any idea what he is talking about?
              He's probably referring to Prompt Global Strike or maybe even "Rods From God".
              “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

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              • #52
                Originally posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
                What am I missing here?
                Strategic weapons existed long before nukes. Battleships, Aircraft carriers, and at one time, chemical weapons.

                But Global Prompt Strike is the hint, not the system. The actual system is the identification of key strategic nodes and their destruction does not require nukes. You don't need to nuke a city when you can bomb city hall to nothing. You don't have to burn a city's population when you can let cholera do its work by destroying the sewage treatment plant.

                It's the thinking that Putin fears ... and despite what the Chinese and the Russians and all the other computer hacker thinks - destroying computer systems does not equal to destroying the infrastructure.

                Putin's answer? His only answer. Nukes.
                Chimo

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
                  Outnumbered by who? I am looking at just Poland and the Baltics right now, and that looks like a really short war. The Russian leads in artillery and fixed-wing aircraft are just mind-boggling. I'm not sure 50-60 aircraft are enough to go against the whole Russian air force, unless they are all Iron Man suits.
                  I'll put in two key words.

                  "Local superiority." In fact, I will put in "local conditions."

                  By the time, Putin can mass those artillery and airplanes against Poland and the Baltics, he would already be outnumbered 3 to 1. Germany can rush forces to Poland faster than Putin can mass on the Polish border.

                  Putin would be outgunned, outmaneuvered, outnumbered, and outguilded.
                  Chimo

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                    It's the thinking that Putin fears ... and despite what the Chinese and the Russians and all the other computer hacker thinks - destroying computer systems does not equal to destroying the infrastructure.
                    Sir,
                    In US and most of the West, yes it does. Everything is connected. There are manpower to fix glitches or recover from a hack and get the systems ready and online, but one never know what can happen during those hours of outage.

                    Fire sail. One example is Stuxnet, a worm, that reportedly ruined 1/5th of Iran's nuclear centrifuges at the Natanz nuclear plant in November 2009.

                    STUXNET WORM
                    A Declaration of Cyber-War
                    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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                    • #55
                      Ice Storm 98.
                      Northeast Blackout 03
                      Chimo

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                        I'll put in two key words.

                        "Local superiority." In fact, I will put in "local conditions."

                        By the time, Putin can mass those artillery and airplanes against Poland and the Baltics, he would already be outnumbered 3 to 1. Germany can rush forces to Poland faster than Putin can mass on the Polish border.

                        Putin would be outgunned, outmaneuvered, outnumbered, and outguilded.
                        You're right, and I don't disagree, but I think the post I was responding to implied that the Eastern European armies outnumbered Russia on their own. Maybe I'm misreading something.
                        "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                          Ice Storm 98.
                          Northeast Blackout 03
                          Sir,

                          One was due to nature's fury and the other due to a bug. Imagine a hack taking control of the mainframes of FirstEnergy Corp that time. I'm not so sure what you are pointing to.
                          Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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                          • #58
                            Oracle, you do know that Apollo 13's entire computer room had less computing power then your phone, right?
                            No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                            To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                              Oracle, you do know that Apollo 13's entire computer room had less computing power then your phone, right?
                              I get it now. :)

                              destroying computer systems does not equal to destroying the real infrastructure

                              The word I should have used is cripple.
                              Last edited by Oracle; 11 Sep 14,, 15:05.
                              Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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                              • #60
                                At best, the Russians can bring 100,000 (without calling on reserves) against Poland and the Baltic states ... and that is assuming that they have time to do so before the Poles attack their assembly points.

                                That is assuming that the Poles don't attack first because it will be they who are the firstest with the mostest.
                                Chimo

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