Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

What is going on in Ferguson?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Re. Police Militarization
    This is just theory crafting as well, feel free to tell me I'm full of it haha

    I think the War on Terror has a lot to do with it, along with "Domestic Terrorism" that seems to be a more and more common talking point of our politicians and media to label people of a differ opinion. Though I've yet to see any real acts of terrorism from either political side, claiming they are does have it's effects on the tactics and attitude deployed by the police and other security agencies... A little off topic but I believe EA new video game uses Gadsden flag to represent the terrorist political views... These tactics and attitudes are also pick up from the military. From the most likely sources: Veterans who learned lessons in Iraq and Afghanistan when acting as peace keepers and are unable unlearn those lessons for a new sit of rules on how to treat American civilians and are now employed as an police officer and is influencing the Police behavior. The other is military bases where they learn tactics and techniques to be fielded for crowd control. Of course neither of these are how you should treat American civilians. This isn't a war zone where you're acting as peace keepers and your only real option is to act aggressively and treat people with a unconstitutional level of caution. Which is what "Militarization" really means IMO.

    To me.. The police having military like equipment is fine as well as the discipline that comes with military training. The issue is them adapting the aggressive social behavior and tactics of the military. My friend who is a sheriff has told me that an co worker of his who is ex military will completely break down your gun if you give it to him. Like the American civilian and his M&P9 is comparable to an possible terrorist with an Ak-47 in Afghanistan, and you're seeing more and more dog shootings, and searches with out warrants, Civilian shootings, and over all aggressive behavior from the police and I believe the cause is because of "Domestic terrorism" (Which I've yet to see) and lessons learn from the War on Terror.

    Domestic terrorism is the fear tactic that promotes the cautions that in returns leads police departments to militarization, and the War on Terror is means to achieve the level of caution they believe they need to stay safe. Then you have situations like this where the Police act overly aggressive towards protesters and it turns into a riot, or ignores an Americans constitutional rights.

    IMO, if we need a military for domestic reasons, we have the National Guard. Which I believe the Missionary Governor just called in.

    Comment


    • #32
      What an unholy bloody mess. Another battle in the culture wars. Pity about the real body.

      Michael Brown, the unarmed black teenager whose death at the hands of police has sparked protests around America, was shot at least six times, including twice in the head, a preliminary private autopsy performed has found.

      One of the bullets entered the top of Mr Brown's skull, suggesting his head was bent forward when it struck him, and caused a fatal injury, according to Michael Baden, the former chief medical examiner for New York City, who flew to Missouri on Sunday at the family's request to conduct the separate autopsy. It was likely the last of bullets to hit him, he said.

      Mr Brown was also shot four times in the right arm, he said, adding that all the bullets were fired from the front.

      The bullets did not appear to have been shot from very close range because no gunshot powder was present on his body. However, that determination could change if it turns out there is gunshot residue on Mr Brown's clothing, to which Dr Baden did not have access.

      US Attorney-General Eric Holder said on Sunday that the Justice Department would conduct its own autopsy, in addition to the one performed by local officials and this private one because, a department spokesman said, of "the extraordinary circumstances involved in this case and at the request of the Brown family".
      Read more: Ferguson teenager Michael Brown was shot six times, twice in the head, autopsy shows
      sigpic

      Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Twain View Post
        As to the 70% black town with a 90% white police department, That part of St Louis has experienced over the last 20 years a "white flight". Many of the whites in the area moved to neighboring St Charles county, a common occurrence in most of north st louis county
        More or less confirms my first impressions i.e. that the local PD had no 'connection' with the community they were Policing, which is always a bad thing. If you live in or near the community you patrol, do some of your shopping there, eat out in its restaurants, have your kids go to school nearby, etc people get to know you, your families and your colleagues - at least a little. This means that when something bad like this shooting happens at least some of the locals are prepared to give you some benefit of a doubt pending an official inquiry. For that matter half your job as a GD patrol officer is or should be about building up local relationships - even when you don't live nearby. How else do you get intel and support from the public if some of your officers aren't out of their cars and building bridges. Its good basic Police work.
        Last edited by Monash; 18 Aug 14,, 11:07.
        If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

        Comment


        • #34
          How we'd cover Ferguson if it happened in another country - Vox
          No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

          To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

          Comment


          • #35
            Comedy is the only escape!
            All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
            -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Monash View Post
              More or less confirms my first impressions i.e. that the local PD had no 'connection' with the community they were Policing, which is always a bad thing. If you live in or near the community you patrol, do some of your shopping there, eat out in its restaurants, have your kids go to school nearby, etc people get to know you, your families and your colleagues - at least a little. This means that when something bad like this shooting happens at least some of the locals are prepared to give you some benefit of a doubt pending an official inquiry. For that matter half your job as a GD patrol officer is or should be about building up local relationships - even when you don't live nearby. How else do you get intel and support from the public if some of your officers aren't out of their cars and building bridges. Its good basic Police work.
              That's certainly an issue here, local relationship building. Unfortunately here in the US even if the police force lives locally, they rarely get out of their cars. It's been shown over and over again that a police officer walking down the street and getting to know people in the neighborhood is much more effective than a bunch of police driving around in their cars all the time. It's been an ongoing debate with the police arguing "it's more dangerous for us to walk around than drive around" and "we can't catch criminals who are in cars if we are walking" and the other side arguing that you can't know what is going on in a commuty if you never leave your police car. The end result being, politics as usual until something like Ferguson gets out of control.


              I'm guessing a lot of you have seen that Brown was shot 6 times including once in the top of the head, which was probably the last shot fired at Brown. This explains the reluctance of the Ferguson police to release any information. Currently they are witholding any official autopsy results until the toxicology results are back, which will take another 4-5 weeks. Basically they are hoping that the results indicate that Brown was very high on something.

              I'm having a hard time seeing how the Ferguson police are going to justify this shooting. Brown was hit 6 times and there are indications that more than 6 shots were fired and so far there is no evidence that any of them were fired at close range. I don't doubt that there was a physical altercation, but with the evidence available so far it doesn't appear that the shots were fired during the physical altercation, which is what the Ferguson police had implied earlier.

              Moving on to the riots last night.

              At approximately 9pm last night things got ugly again. The peaceful protesters had already left the area leaving what looked like about 2-250 protesters in the street. The crowd started advancing on the Police command center carrying rocks, brisks and molotov cocktails. I watched this live on televison and saw this myself. The police quickly gathered together in the street behind their tactical vans and started firing smoke bombs and tear gas. Rocks were thrown and there was an attempt to block the further advance of the police by placing large rocks in the street that failed. The protesters apparently are using bottles of booze to make some of their molotov cocktails. (looked like vodka or rum) Needless to say these didn't work too well. There were molotov cocktails made with gasoline as well. Numerous shots were fired, to my knowledge no police were hit and I don't know how many protesters were hit. The police (as of last night) said they had not fired their weapons. Something to take note of, the protesters are not a homogenous group as there are reports of them shooting each other and fights breaking out among them. My suspiscion is that there is a considerable amount of gang participation in the violent part of the protests and they are using this as an opportunity for revenge against each other. I can't verify that, it's just a suspiscion I have based on local reports.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by zraver View Post
                A violent but unarmed black man got into a confrontation with a cop who shot him 10 times. Community protested. The mostly white and heavily militarized police response lead to a riot. Since then groups like the NAACP have stepped in to keep all further community protests peaceful, but the police response is still massively violent. They have even begun arresting and harassing the media. In Missouri, a black man is 66% more likely to be arrested than a white and much more likely to be stopped and searched even though whites are more likely to be carrying contraband. The police will still not release the name of the killer cop, who is now enjoying an extended paid vacation at the expense of the very community he traumatized. The names of the cops arresting reporters are likewise not being released. A real tour de force in why militarized police are a bad idea.

                Oh, and most of the politicians at the local, state and federal level have conveniently begun a graduate level course in belly button fuzz inspection.
                On the other hand, an uncooperative, white, schizophrenic man was restrained by 6 cops in Fullerton, CA, and died during the struggle. Community protested, but did not riot. No looting occurred. No militarized police were called (and we have plenty of those around here). The case went to trial.

                The police response in Ferguson was over the top, but the locals didn't exactly help their cause by rioting and looting.
                "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Monash View Post
                  More or less confirms my first impressions i.e. that the local PD had no 'connection' with the community they were Policing, which is always a bad thing. If you live in or near the community you patrol, do some of your shopping there, eat out in its restaurants, have your kids go to school nearby, etc people get to know you, your families and your colleagues - at least a little. This means that when something bad like this shooting happens at least some of the locals are prepared to give you some benefit of a doubt pending an official inquiry. For that matter half your job as a GD patrol officer is or should be about building up local relationships - even when you don't live nearby. How else do you get intel and support from the public if some of your officers aren't out of their cars and building bridges. Its good basic Police work.
                  This may help you understand the history of our police and their philosophy.

                  Carl Cannon: The L.A. roots of militarized police

                  BY CARL M. CANNON / STAFF COLUMNIST

                  Published: Aug. 15, 2014 Updated: 6:12 p.m.

                  Competing theories on curbing crime and keeping the peace in America’s teeming municipalities have long preoccupied law enforcement. “Community policing” is one approach. The harder-edged “proactive” policing is another.

                  Now a new technique has forged itself into the national consciousness – “Ferguson policing,” let’s call it.

                  If Ferguson policing’s precepts are murky, perhaps that’s because its proponents don’t feel obliged to explain it to the media or community activists – cops just arrest them, instead.

                  Who knew the 53-officer police force in Ferguson, Mo., even had all that military equipment and SWAT gear? Why do they have it? The answers – and how Missouri’s highway patrol ended four nights of rioting – take us back in time and into the rich history of the storied, influential and, sometimes, notorious Los Angeles Police Department.

                  A century ago, about the time Hollywood was establishing itself, civic leaders in the City of the Angels realized they had an actual metropolis on their hands. With the Progressive movement in vogue, reformers fashioned a city charter that diluted the power of political parties, thereby weakening patronage. They set out to create a professional police force not beholden to political bosses, and less corrupt than its counterparts back East.

                  It took a while to blossom, but it did. The upright Sgt. Joe Friday of “Dragnet” fame was fictional, but he was not a myth. Jack Webb and the department he portrayed on television became a national role model for honest cops. But this virtue came with a price, one hidden from view until some cataclysmic event – the Watts riots in 1965 or the Rodney King drama in 1991-92 – exposed the underlying flaw in Los Angeles’ style of government.

                  The city charter that allowed the department’s professionalism to develop also engendered its unaccountability, and its isolation. The autonomy granted the police chief virtually ensured a political rivalry between the chief and mayor, and when South Central went up in flames in 1992, Mayor Tom Bradley and Police Chief Daryl Gates were not on speaking terms.

                  That estrangement complicated the city’s response to the riots, but the problems were long in the making. Watts took place at the end of the 16-year-reign of William H. Parker. Famously incorruptible, Parker was also so emotionally remote that “Star Trek” creator Gene Roddenberry, a former LAPD officer, reportedly based Mr. Spock on the chief.

                  To Parker, the two traits went together. His officers were trained to keep citizens at arms’ length, the better – or so Parker thought – to resist temptations for bribes and favoritism. It worked, but only up to a point. Sgt. Friday was famous for his “Just the facts, ma’am” dictum.

                  The limits of the Parker approach became apparent during Watts, which started over a traffic arrest and escalated into rioting that claimed 34 lives. Parker himself called for support from the California National Guard. Activists found soldiers patrolling the streets of Los Angeles a fitting symbol. They had long considered the LAPD an occupying army. Parker had the opposite reaction: He wanted those toys for his officers.

                  The rush to militarize was on, epitomized by SWAT units. Their deployments have increasingly come under scrutiny when they do things like storm minor drug offenders’ houses in the middle of the night, shooting pets and terrorizing spouses with automatic weapons – sometimes at the wrong addresses – or when they’ve ponderously established perimeters around active crime scenes while victims were being shot in homes or schools.

                  They’ve also been used as crowd control, even during peaceful demonstrations, which is what happened in Ferguson. Some consider this a misapplication of SWAT, but the real problem is deeper: this was its original function, developed in Delano, Calif., by police looking to control – some would say intimidate – Cesar Chavez’ striking United Farm Workers. It was Daryl Gates, a Parker protégé, who liked what Delano was doing. By 1967, Los Angeles had its own SWAT units.

                  After the department’s SWAT team prevailed in violent confrontations with Black Panthers and SLA guerrillas – and with help from a Hollywood television series named “S.W.A.T.” and generous Justice Department grants – thousands of U.S. police departments began buying the high-powered weapons, body armor and other SWAT accoutrements.

                  At the same time, under the tenure of Chief Ed Davis, the LAPD embraced “community policing.” It started with the “Basic Car Plan,” which divided L.A. into management districts and assigned patrolmen to each one. Basic Car was supplemented by Neighborhood Watch programs that brought officers into private homes for brainstorming sessions on reducing crime.

                  Davis supplemented these innovations with “Team Policing,” assigning lieutenants, detectives and juvenile officers to specific neighborhoods. The results were impressive. As crime rates spiked nationally, they remained static in Los Angeles.

                  In the 1990s, New York City took Team Policing to another level. The NYPD divided the city into grids, held police commanders accountable for their sectors, encouraged aggressive stop-and-frisk policies and generally projected an aggressive stance.

                  Whatever the relative merits of community policing versus proactive policing, at the time of the Rodney King trial, the LAPD under Daryl Gates wasn’t really doing either one, partly because it was woefully understaffed.

                  Fifty of Ferguson’s 53 police officers are white, in a town two-thirds black. In response to civic unrest after last week’s police killing of 18-year-old Michael Brown, those officers turned out in force, in all their riot gear and SWAT splendor, while the brass stonewalled the community, and street cops arrested journalists.

                  But if Chief Parker’s ghost still lives, so does the spirit of Ed Davis. This guardian angel made his appearance Thursday, in the form of Missouri Highway Patrol Capt. Ronald S. Johnson, a Ferguson native. Tasked with quelling tempers, Johnson walked with marchers, hugged them, and talked openly to reporters.

                  “I grew up here, and this is currently my community and home,” Johnson said. “When I see a young lady cry because of fear of this uniform, that’s a problem. We’ve got to solve that.”

                  Staff opinion columnist Carl M. Cannon also is Washington editor of the website RealClearPolitics.
                  Carl Cannon: The L.A. roots of militarized police - The Orange County Register
                  "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by gunnut View Post
                    On the other hand, an uncooperative, white, schizophrenic man was restrained by 6 cops in Fullerton, CA, and died during the struggle. Community protested, but did not riot. No looting occurred. No militarized police were called (and we have plenty of those around here). The case went to trial.

                    The police response in Ferguson was over the top, but the locals didn't exactly help their cause by rioting and looting.
                    The locals didn't riot and loot in Ferguson either. The locals are protesting but on the whole the rioting and looting is not being caused by locals. It is being caused by people from outside the local area. Trust me, I live near there and this statement has very little to do with the reality of the situation. When the police broke up the riot the last two nights, the rioters ran to their cars and left the area, they didn't run to local houses.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Twain View Post
                      The locals didn't riot and loot in Ferguson either. The locals are protesting but on the whole the rioting and looting is not being caused by locals. It is being caused by people from outside the local area. Trust me, I live near there and this statement has very little to do with the reality of the situation. When the police broke up the riot the last two nights, the rioters ran to their cars and left the area, they didn't run to local houses.
                      Interesting...

                      How come outsiders didn't come to Fullerton to riot and loot the place?

                      If the locals are not responsible for the looting and rioting, then can we still blame the police for heavyhanded tactics? Maybe the locals should support the police's heavyhanded tactics to quell the riot brought to their community by outsiders.
                      "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by zraver View Post
                        Actually after the first night the NAACP stepped in and kept it peace. It has been the police instigating violence, hiding their faces and badge numbers and trampling first amendment rights to peaceably assemble and of the press. Europe may have a history of militarized police forces, but the US doesn't. What you see as normal, we see as dangerous and anti-liberty. I also wonder if Euro-cops, recruit from the bottom of the barrel, protect cops with testi-lying and free vacations for acts of violence, have a steroid problem and shoot as many people and dogs as US cops do. For all the problems I have with the federal government, federal cops are generally much more restrained and much more likely to respect constitutional liberties.


                        I completely agree. I will cite our RCMP and the Australian Federal Police as pretty good examples even if they also have their issues.

                        Also, the police in Paris look like the Ghestapo. European police look like the military and not all that approachable.
                        Originally posted by GVChamp
                        College students are very, very, very dumb. But that's what you get when the government subsidizes children to sit in the middle of a corn field to drink alcohol and fuck.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by gunnut View Post
                          Interesting...

                          How come outsiders didn't come to Fullerton to riot and loot the place?
                          I'm not familiar with the situation in Fullerton so I won't speculate on that. You however, do seem to be familiar with it, perhaps you would like to elaborate on that?


                          Originally posted by gunnut View Post
                          If the locals are not responsible for the looting and rioting, then can we still blame the police for heavyhanded tactics?

                          Since these same heavy handed tactics were applied to peaceful protesters and press in the area, including firing beanbag guns and tear gas at the press and peaceful protesters, I'd say it's safe to assume the police behaved inappropriately.


                          Originally posted by gunnut View Post
                          Maybe the locals should support the police's heavyhanded tactics to quell the riot brought to their community by outsiders.
                          I can tell you that the locals are not happy with the rioting and looting. More than one local group has stood in front of a local business with arms locked together to protect them and that after their protests, they actually cleaned up the street afterwards. They have also shown up at local businesses that have been looted to help the owner clean up and re-open for business. The locals are not happy with the rioting and looting, they live there and have to deal with it everyday, they definitely don't want their town trashed. As to what response they expect from the police, I suspect they want what everyone wants, a police response appropriate and commensurate with the situation, wouldn't you?

                          You won't see these type of details in the national news because they don't make a good story or get ratings. The situation here is much more complicated than "70% Black Community of Ferguson Riots" or "Heavy Handed Police Response triggers More Riots"

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            I still don't want to comment on the initial situation leading to the shooting, as I'm not sure what the facts are. The fact that it seems the police keep changing their story doesn't inspire me to trust them, but I admit to be biased against the police and I try to resist acting on that bias.

                            However, the initial militarized reaction was way overboard, which seems to be the norm lately.

                            While I'm not a fan of cops having heavy equipment in the first place, once the protest became a riot they did become appropriate equipment. I think the problem is that the cops seem to want to use their toys too often, which then leads to their be needed.

                            What saddens me though, is that not one word was spoken against this militarized mentality when the city of Watertown was locked down on un-declared martial law in the hunt for the Boston marathon bombers. Intimidation, in my opinion, is a good weapon against rioters/looters with the option of force being downgraded based on reaction of the mob. Intimidation of peaceful protestors, is a crime. And intimidation of an entire city during the hunt for one teenager, should result in jail time for those involved.
                            "Bother", said Poo, chambering another round.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              It appears that the bastion of tolerance for dissent we all know as Egypt, is urging U.S. authorities to show restraint:

                              BBC News - Ferguson unrest: Egypt urges US to show restraint

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Twain View Post
                                I can tell you that the locals are not happy with the rioting and looting. More than one local group has stood in front of a local business with arms locked together to protect them and that after their protests, they actually cleaned up the street afterwards. They have also shown up at local businesses that have been looted to help the owner clean up and re-open for business. The locals are not happy with the rioting and looting, they live there and have to deal with it everyday, they definitely don't want their town trashed. As to what response they expect from the police, I suspect they want what everyone wants, a police response appropriate and commensurate with the situation, wouldn't you?

                                You won't see these type of details in the national news because they don't make a good story or get ratings. The situation here is much more complicated than "70% Black Community of Ferguson Riots" or "Heavy Handed Police Response triggers More Riots"
                                And therein lies the problem from a Policing perspective. Whoever is in command of current operations in Ferguson (BTW is it still correct that the local PD had been 'stood down' at least in a command role?) will also know that a lot of the locals aren't violent protesters looking for trouble. The problem is sorting the sheep from the goats. British Police forces have turned this skill into an art form of sorts at least as far as soccer hooliganism is concerned - and they have contained crowds to work with. But it is a hard skill to master when your not operating in an environment where you encounter riot scenarios on a regular basis, which lets face it most US local P.D.s don't. Presumably there is a lot going on behind the scenes at the moment is terms of contacting and coordinating with local community groups to try and address this problem and of course this won't make the news. Pity there wasn't more of this sort of thing before the shooting.
                                If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X