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What is going on in Ferguson?

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  • #16
    triple C,

    Insofar as I can see, the police is more greatly feared in the USA than most European and democratic Asian countries.
    yes, historically police forces in the US were seen as an aberration. most cities didn't have a police beat until the 1860s-1890s.

    moreover given the 2A here, police must deal with armed criminals to a greater extent than europe.

    mix in racial tensions and you got a really bad brew. this whole affair was a demonstration in boneheadedness, and it seems pretty clear, a culture of impunity in the Ferguson police force.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    • #17
      Originally posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
      After the initial rioting, things have calmed down, the governor of Missouri has state police patrolling Ferguson, and protests are proceeding mostly peacefully.
      Agreed, and it certainly helps when the police don't default to an immediate massive overbearing presence...the problem there is, if they hadn't responded in force immediately, and Ferguson went full-blown Los Angeles circa April 1992, the police then get to explain why they weren't prepared for mass-rioting. It's a Catch-22 situation all around.

      And then of course you have assholes like this:

      A small group of young men wearing matching red bandanas across their faces and St Louis Cardinals baseball caps pledged to continue clashing with police and rejected the change in tone.

      “It doesn’t matter that the dude has a black face,” said Kloud, 25. “They’re all cops.” However the majority of people expressed cautious optimism that the peace could hold as calm reigned at 8.30pm. Link
      “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

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      • #18
        far easier for the police to deal with a small group of young idiots with the community on their side than otherwise.

        seriously, whichever moron thought that sending out a SWAT truck with a sniper perch was a good idea should be cashiered. also, the casual use of force against reporters also speaks volumes about how the local police deal with people. if this is how they treat obvious members of the national news media, how do you think they treat the local populace?
        There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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        • #19
          Originally posted by astralis View Post
          far easier for the police to deal with a small group of young idiots with the community on their side than otherwise.

          seriously, whichever moron thought that sending out a SWAT truck with a sniper perch was a good idea should be cashiered. also, the casual use of force against reporters also speaks volumes about how the local police deal with people. if this is how they treat obvious members of the national news media, how do you think they treat the local populace?
          astralis and the weird this is that it was the St louis county force that had all that military equipment and i am surprised they even went along with this overt presence

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          • #20
            Missouri governor imposes curfew in Ferguson - CNN.com

            Police publishes a video of Brown in a cigar store shoplifting/robbery(owner was shoved). Brown family's attorney confirms the incident at the cigar store to KSDK, local TV station. Riot ensues. Curfew declared in Fergusson.
            Last edited by Triple C; 17 Aug 14,, 05:09.
            All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
            -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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            • #21
              I have no opinion on Michael Brown.

              I am troubled by the increasingly militaristic nature of police equipment in the United States, partly due to massive transfers of surplus equipment from wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and the transference of military tactics into local police forces. There is no small amount glamor associated with SWAT and that's being increasingly reflected in ways that police forces are operating. I think there is a serious requirement for SWAT capabilities and they do strengthen homeland defense, but then you see scenes like below and I just think, WTF, REALLY?!! That guy pointing the AR-15, what was the threat he was aiming at? Did he think that the news reporters is going Al Qaeda on him in the middle of a Missouri street?



              But I don't think the equipment is at the core of the issue. The core of the issue is the willingness of the police to assert their authority and escalate situations that can be deescalated, the willingness of the police to resort to force to deal with situations that can be dealt with without resorting to force, and finally the overaggressive use of deadly force.

              During the past two decades the mantra of police forces in response to criticism of this type is that they are protecting the lives of the officers. Well, the police also has a duty to protect and serve the community. They have to accept a certain level of risk and the training has to reflect this.

              There is no clear and sharp dividing line, but the overwhelming opinion amongst my friends across the political spectrum is that the scale is now tipped too far towards use of force and self-preservation by the police. Most see police as potentially dangerous and aggressive, and I find that very troubling.
              Last edited by citanon; 17 Aug 14,, 06:50.

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              • #22
                According to NYT, DoJ asked Fergusson PD not to release the video because it might rile up the protesters which they did and it did.
                All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
                -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Triple C View Post
                  According to NYT, DoJ asked Fergusson PD not to release the video because it might rile up the protesters which they did and it did.
                  Oh no, let's not tell people the truth because it might make some people mad.

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                  • #24
                    Based on the limited information I have gleaned from various news sources the seems to be a greater than average 'disconnect' between the local PD and the community it supposed to be Policing by which I mean there appears to be little or no community engagement and liaison prior to the shooting and certainly no attempts (I'm aware of) by the local Chief to reach out to local civic leaders after it occurred. In any event they also seem to have gone strait from the shooting to very heavy 'by the book' /lock down style Policing with little tolerance for even potentially peaceful protests - normally you would expect other steps in between.

                    I also get the distinct impression that few if any of the Ferguson PD live in the areas they were patrolling in riot control mode until recently and wouldn't want if they had the chance. In short there is a real 'them' and 'us' mentality in both camps which is not helping the situation. It would be interesting to see the racial composition of the local force compared to Ferguson Township in general, also the stats on how many members of the local PD actually live locally vs how many 'bus in' from other communities. In any event when tragedies like this occur you usually try to start with intensive community liaison using well established and respected local contacts, lots of media work stressing your willingness to consult and meet with those affected and intensified standard patrolling before going into full riot control mode. Then again maybe they tried all that already and it simply didn't work - I don't know.

                    The Ferguson PD also seems to have spent up big on all sorts of Post 911 para-military equipment (unless they are borrowing gear from other local counties or using pooled assets). Again such equipment has its place if if all other efforts to quell large scale civic disturbances have failed but they are not generally regarded as the first option you pull from the tool kit.

                    In any event all of the above is based on very limited impressions I have gained from media reporting which I take always take with a grain of salt. I could be entirely wrong about all of the above and am happy to admit it. One thing for certain though, the Ferguson PD are certainly not 'winning' the current PR war.
                    Last edited by Monash; 17 Aug 14,, 15:14.
                    If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Monash View Post
                      It would be interesting to see the racial composition of the local force compared to Ferguson Township in general, also the stats on how many members of the local PD actually live locally vs how many 'bus in' from other communities.
                      It's been pretty widely reported that the police force is almost all white ( all but 2 members is what comes to mind) and the population of Ferguson is 70% black. What I wonder more is what is the makeup of the city government? Why would they hire an all white force to police a mostly black populace given the history of racial relations in this country? One would assume that being an elected body, they would reflect the electoral wishes of the population. Perhaps no one votes?

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Monash View Post
                        The Ferguson PD also seems to have spent up big on all sorts of Post 911 para-military equipment (unless they are borrowing gear from other local counties or using pooled assets). Again such equipment has its place if if all other efforts to quell large scale civic disturbances have failed but they are not generally regarded as the first option you pull from the tool kit.
                        The kit comes from various Federal grant programs for homeland defense and DoD initiatives to transfer surplus military equipment (especially armored vehicles) from the War on Terror to domestic police departments across the country. Many departments now have small army style special weapons and tactics units and Federal agencies with law enforcement power but primarily regulatory roles, such as the EPA, also have SWAT units.

                        These programs have no doubt increased the capabilities of the police departments, but it's also caused problems regarding overuse of heavy handed tactics.

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                        • #27
                          If I may, I live fairly close to Ferguson and needless to say this has been on the news 24/7 locally. I'll try to give a rundown of the events in Ferguson.

                          The start of the whole mess was the shooting of Michael Brown, He was walking in the street near W. Florissant Ave, a local ferguson police officer told him to get out of the street and walk on the sidewalk. According to the Ferguson police he was walking in the middle of the street but this may or may not be true as the police officer in question had to reverse his car in order to confront michael brown, so obviously the police officer was able to at least get past him on the road. I'm not saying the police are lying, just saying that there are questions about the circumstances here. After the police officer reversed his car and confronted Brown, apparently a struggle ensued. I have no idea just how violent the struggle was because there are different accounts of what happened. The ferguson police reported that Brown attempted to take the officers gun, one shot was fired from inside the police car, then more shots were fired up to 35 feet away from the police car. Several days after this incident the ferguson police released information that brown was a suspect in a nearby robbery, the police office in question was aware of the robbery but not that Brown was implicated in it. They implied but did not directly say that the officer was checking out Brown in connection with the robbery. The autopsy has been completed except for toxicology results but the police are not releasing any information about the autopsy so officially only the police, coroner and the prosecuting attorney know how many times he was hit or how many total shots were fired.

                          There are several people who claim to have witnessed the incident but apparently none of them saw the start of it and their stories are not consistent with each other. The other boy that was with Brown has told multiple versions of the story.

                          Moving on the to riots/protests. These are not huge city wide riots the area of the actual protests is about 5-6KM long on one street and the entire 5 km street is not full of people along it's entire length. Just a guess but at it's largest, I would be surpriesed if the total number of people ever reached 5000 at one time.

                          https://www.google.com/maps/place/W+...498e4b04?hl=en

                          They have had day and night protests there mainly peaceful. There are also two distinct groups involved in the protests, one larger group that is definitely peaceful, they even cleaned up the area at the end of their protests, It is mainly led by local clergy and politicians. The second group is the problem. Over half if not most of this group is not local and they are coming in from other areas around St Louis. The local clergy based groups have tried to discourage them with limited success. These people have also helped local businesses that got looted to clean up and re-open for business.

                          How things got out of control.

                          The ferguson police handled this very poorly in the first place, releasing information about the shooting in bits and pieces seemingly to their own benefit. Personally I am not sure if this is intentional or just incompetence on their own part. As things escalated the Ferguson police found themselves overwhelmed, so they called in other city police departments and the St Louis County police. The St louis county police handled things just as poorly as the Ferguson police, call it an attitude of confrontation. Things continued to escalate until you all saw the footage of the police firing tear gas and bean bag guns at reporters and arresting reporters. All the evidence seems to indicate that the St Louis county police were the ones responsible for the assaults on reporters and the large amounts of tear gas used. Apparently what happened was that once they decided to clear the protesters from the area, they fired tear gas at anyone in the area and advaced down the street firing tear gas in front of them and down each side street they passed.

                          The next day, several local police departments notified Ferguson and the St Louis county police that they would no longer be offering assistance in Ferguson because of the aggressive tactics that were used. The unspoken implication behind that was, we won't help as long as the County police are in charge. At this point the Governor stepped in and put the Missouri highway patrol in charge. I'm not sure he has the legal authority to do this but at that point, no one was going to argue with him as most of them wanted to be completely clear of any responsibility for what might happen. One thing to keep in mind, Missouri has a statewide highway patrol, not a state police department. They have very limited training and capability in handling matters like this. The other problem with this is the highway patrol district covering this area has a total of 150 officers to cover 11 counties, 24 hours a day 7 days a week so they can't do it by themselves. Some police departments assisted on the first night the highway patrol was in charge but not all and some who did at least show up, stayed on the sidelines and watched.

                          Things went very well this first night until about midnight, the clergy based peaceful protesters went home and the remaining few hundred troublemakers got out of control again. Quite frankly there were not enough police to control the situation. Calls to the Ferguson and St Louis County police were turned away and referred to the Highway patrol. Basically Ferguson and St Louis county police were doing everything they could to make the highway patrol look bad.

                          MOving forward to last night. The governor imposed a midnight to 5 am cufew over a limited area of ferguson. The Highway patrol brought in reinforcements from other areas of the state and it appears The St Louis county and ferguson police got told to get their act together and assist the highway patrol. My guess is the governor had a very unpleasant conversation with them. So Last night midnight comes and all but about 150-200 protesters left the area and went home. These last few started advancing on the police, so the police first told them to go home. The next step when they continued to advance was that the Police fired soke bombs at them, a few scattered and left. The remaining ones then got hit with some tear gas, much smaller amounts than was used the other night. They then scattered and left the area.


                          There are a lot of details that I didn't include so if anyone has any questions just ask.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by DonBelt View Post
                            It's been pretty widely reported that the police force is almost all white ( all but 2 members is what comes to mind) and the population of Ferguson is 70% black. What I wonder more is what is the makeup of the city government? Why would they hire an all white force to police a mostly black populace given the history of racial relations in this country? One would assume that being an elected body, they would reflect the electoral wishes of the population. Perhaps no one votes?
                            Or maybe the voters cared more about a capability out of the police than its make up. From the riots and the strong arm robbery video it looks to me like Ferguson is a tough place. Most of the people who bother going to the polls in the previous years might have felt the need for protection by the police. The department's relations with the community might even have been pretty good until this incident dramatically upended relations.

                            A similar thing happened in Fullerton, CA a couple of years ago. In that case race was not a factor and Fullerton is not a rough neighborhood and yet it really changed relations between the community and the police.

                            Death of Kelly Thomas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                            The protests in Fullerton did not turn into a riot, but on the other hand it's not clear that Ferguson residents are the ones rioting either. They were out on the street protesting but many claimed that the looters were unfamiliar faces from out of town.

                            So what quite possibly is happening is that you have the community out on the street protesting, the police initially responding in appropriately to a situation they've never faced before, making people angry, and criminal elements coming in from all over the place to take advantage of the situation.
                            Last edited by citanon; 17 Aug 14,, 18:15.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by citanon View Post
                              Or maybe the voters cared more about a capability out of the police than its make up. From the riots and the strong arm robbery video it looks to me like Ferguson is a tough place.
                              Just to explain, Ferguson is what I would call lower middle class, not wealthy by any stretch but definitly not poverty stricken. As to the violence, I go there fairly regularly and I'm not afraid to go anywhere in that city. Just like any city, you just use common sense and be aware who and what is around you. There are much much worse neighborhoods in St Louis.

                              As to the 70% black town with a 90% white police department, That part of St Louis has experienced over the last 20 years a "white flight". Many of the whites in the area moved to neighboring St Charles county, a comon occurrence in most of norht st louis county

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                              • #30
                                A history of police riot control tactics in the US:

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