Page 10 of 10 FirstFirst 12345678910
Results 136 to 145 of 145

Thread: Are American Values to Blame for the World's Chaos

  1. #136
    Senior Contributor Triple C's Avatar
    Join Date
    11 Apr 06
    Location
    Taipei, Taiwan
    Posts
    2,403
    But is it really American foreign policy that's introducing chaos?

    I see other forces at work. The end of the Cold War removed an entire aligned bloc of nations out of the control of a hegemony, and the nominally non-aligned nations suddenly lost strategic value as military assets to be won-over. Technology is empowering ever smaller groups and individuals, even as global capitalism are creating more and more members of the global middle class. A new global system is building itself over the old. Those forces are not remotely approaching dynamic equilibrium, and the troubles won't end until it does.
    All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
    -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

  2. #137
    Administrator
    Lei Feng Protege
    Defense Professional
    Join Date
    23 Aug 05
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    Posts
    14,016
    the rise of the global economy also means the rise of nations/people with ideologies hostile to traditional liberal values.

    and that's -in addition- to the everyday frictions caused by simple balance of power issues.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  3. #138
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
    Join Date
    03 Jul 06
    Location
    Belgrade
    Posts
    2,941
    Quote Originally Posted by Triple C View Post
    But is it really American foreign policy that's introducing chaos?

    I see other forces at work. The end of the Cold War removed an entire aligned bloc of nations out of the control of a hegemony, and the nominally non-aligned nations suddenly lost strategic value as military assets to be won-over. Technology is empowering ever smaller groups and individuals, even as global capitalism are creating more and more members of the global middle class. A new global system is building itself over the old. Those forces are not remotely approaching dynamic equilibrium, and the troubles won't end until it does.
    Global capitalism is creating global middle class but that middle class is not a middle class that is defined by the US life style and standards of living, yet it is something different. However, I don't think that is the main issue here, the main issue is growth. If the American values are seen as the best way to achieeve growth, the failoure of growth is than transfered to the American values as they are seen as the likely reason why the growth is lacking. But not even that is the problem, the problem is that this planet is running out of resources and it is not longer possible to enjoy the lifestyles of the past and the American leaders, being at the forefront of this thinking (promoters of growth) are the first to get hit with the feedback from the reality aka no resources and no growth.

  4. #139
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
    Join Date
    11 Sep 10
    Location
    Bangalore
    Posts
    10,054
    Something more specific, US policy in the middle east and the predicament the US finds itself in currently. Thought this speech by the former US ambassador, one among his other titles was quite eloquent and poignant.


  5. #140
    Armchair Worrier Senior Contributor bolo121's Avatar
    Join Date
    19 Dec 07
    Location
    india
    Posts
    2,088
    I tend to agree with Mr Freeman.
    American diplomatic performance up to now does not convince anyone of their salvaging something from this mess.
    At the very least the US urgently needs to wash its hands of Israel and reach some sort of deal with Iran.
    For Gallifrey! For Victory! For the end of time itself!!

  6. #141
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
    Join Date
    11 Sep 10
    Location
    Bangalore
    Posts
    10,054
    The part that troubles me about that speech is he advocates leaving the middle east to its own devices. This is carte blanche for local bullies of the region, a part that is very important and cannot be allowed to be a staging ground for local power games. You could retort and say that's what happens anyway but that is with the US engaged in the region. To pull out is to increase uncertainty in the region.

    I've sensed over the years that the americans just want to leave that damn hell hole alone.

    This brings me to a key point of policy difficulty. We've repeatedly told people in the Middle East that they must either be with us or against us. They remain annoyingly unreliable in this regard. (Laughter.)

    Iran's ayatollahs are against us in Syria, Lebanon and Bahrain, but with us in Afghanistan and Iraq.

    The Assad regime and Hezbollah oppose us in Syria and Lebanon, but are on our side in Iraq.

    The Salafi jihadis are with us in Syria, but against us in Iraq and elsewhere.

    Israel's government is with us on Iran, but against us in blocking Palestinian self-determination and favoring it for the Kurds.

    Saudi Arabia is with us on Iran and Syria, but against us in Iraq. It was for us and then against us before it was again for us in Egypt. (Laughter.) It is against the jihadistan in the fertile crescent, but nobody can figure out what its stand is on Salafi jihadis elsewhere.

    How can you have a coherent policy in the Middle East when the people there are so damnedly inconsistent? I think the answer is that outsiders can't manage the Middle East and shouldn't try.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 10 Aug 14, at 17:26.

  7. #142
    Armchair Worrier Senior Contributor bolo121's Avatar
    Join Date
    19 Dec 07
    Location
    india
    Posts
    2,088
    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    The part that troubles me about that speech is he advocates leaving the middle east to its own devices. This is carte blanche for local bullies of the region, a part that is very important and cannot be allowed to be a staging ground for local power games. You could retort and say that's what happens anyway but that is with the US engaged in the region. To pull out is to increase uncertainty in the region.

    I've sensed over the years that the americans just want to leave that damn hell hole alone.
    I believe that from an American point of view, this would be the right thing to do.
    Intervention did not work and backfired spectacularly.
    America as he noted is very good at smashing things but not so good at finesse and diplomacy.
    So all they need to do i make it clear, these are America's interests. Leave them alone and we don't care what you do.
    If anyone crosses them, park a couple of carriers offshore and mow the lawn.
    For Gallifrey! For Victory! For the end of time itself!!

  8. #143
    Patron sail4evr's Avatar
    Join Date
    03 Jul 14
    Location
    Caribbean
    Posts
    161
    Quote Originally Posted by bolo121 View Post
    I believe that from an American point of view, this would be the right thing to do.
    Intervention did not work and backfired spectacularly.
    America as he noted is very good at smashing things but not so good at finesse and diplomacy.
    So all they need to do i make it clear, these are America's interests. Leave them alone and we don't care what you do.
    If anyone crosses them, park a couple of carriers offshore and mow the lawn.
    But this doesn't work either. American public opinion and world public and government opinion will come down on AFP for taking from these countries, that which we are interested in, and doing nothing for the locals. Leaving them in their poverty and the clutches of the local warlords who are not very democratic and we Americans like democracy. Now if AFP were to include the total cost of supporting American interests, this would include a forever war of continual loss of American lives and trillions of $ of military and humanitarian aid, perhaps a decision would come to pass that the real costs of American interests in the middle east are just too expensive. A barrel of oil might be worth $100 and the hard costs for production are maybe $50, so that seems lucrative. However if you add on the soft costs of continual loss of American lives and trillions of $ of military and humanitarian aid, the actual cost of a barrel of oil might be $10,000 (just a round number for sake of discussion). This would make an easy economic decision to back away from those American interests. If American companies had to bear the burden of protection and sharing their profits in the local economy to a greater extent than they do now, they wouldn't think twice about continuing their venture and cut their losses and back away. This would allow AFP to come to the conclusion that continuing support in the Middle East for American interests is unnecessary and wasteful. America would no longer be the bad guy to quite so many of the world inhabitants. America could continue with humanitarian aid and ti would be a win win. Save lives, save money, and resurrect opinion of American values.
    Last edited by sail4evr; 11 Aug 14, at 14:07.

  9. #144
    Armchair Worrier Senior Contributor bolo121's Avatar
    Join Date
    19 Dec 07
    Location
    india
    Posts
    2,088
    Quote Originally Posted by sail4evr View Post
    But this doesn't work either. American public opinion and world public and government opinion will come down on AFP for taking from these countries, that which we are interested in, and doing nothing for the locals. Leaving them in their poverty and the clutches of the local warlords who are not very democratic and we Americans like democracy. Now if AFP were to include the total cost of supporting American interests, this would include a forever war of continual loss of American lives and trillions of $ of military and humanitarian aid, perhaps a decision would come to pass that the real costs of American interests in the middle east are just too expensive. A barrel of oil might be worth $100 and the hard costs for production are maybe $50, so that seems lucrative. However if you add on the soft costs of continual loss of American lives and trillions of $ of military and humanitarian aid, the actual cost of a barrel of oil might be $10,000 (just a round number for sake of discussion). This would make an easy economic decision to back away from those American interests. If American companies had to bear the burden of protection and sharing their profits in the local economy to a greater extent than they do now, they wouldn't think twice about continuing their venture and cut their losses and back away. This would allow AFP to come to the conclusion that continuing support in the Middle East for American interests is unnecessary and wasteful. America would no longer be the bad guy to quite so many of the world inhabitants. America could continue with humanitarian aid and ti would be a win win. Save lives, save money, and resurrect opinion of American values.
    I'm sorry i didn't get your point.
    Its obvious even to me as a foreigner that the US public in general loathes the middle east and would forget about it in a heartbeat if it could.
    I doubt people nowadays give a crap about all that humanitarian guff.
    Minimal American intervention as advocated by Mr Freeman would be cheap and very popular, avoiding any foreign entanglements.
    For Gallifrey! For Victory! For the end of time itself!!

  10. #145
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
    Join Date
    11 Sep 10
    Location
    Bangalore
    Posts
    10,054
    Quote Originally Posted by bolo121 View Post
    Intervention did not work and backfired spectacularly.
    In what way ? can you say what existed before was better than what is happening or will happen in the future.

    Objectives were to get Saddam & dismantle OBL, Americans were out of Iraq in 2010 having not got a SOFA agreement. Whatever happens after is down to the people in charge of those places. It smoked out the initial problem and attracted more. It's a long term fight. future interventions will be less costly.

    Quote Originally Posted by bolo121 View Post
    America as he noted is very good at smashing things but not so good at finesse and diplomacy.
    There have been setbacks along the way, in terms of supporting primary objectives they got things done. Aftermath is more mixed.

    Quote Originally Posted by bolo121 View Post
    So all they need to do i make it clear, these are America's interests. Leave them alone and we don't care what you do.
    If anyone crosses them, park a couple of carriers offshore and mow the lawn.
    Could say they have been doing this right from day one.

    wrt to the topic, values i don't think are the problem but rather that interests will always trump them requiring a nuanced read of the situation. That was quite clear in the talk. without values the americans might as well bow out and let somebody else who is ready to put their money where their mouth is take over.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 13 Aug 14, at 00:34.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. China's Social values is going to in tune with USA's?
    By davidbond in forum American Politics & Economy
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 31 Mar 09,, 08:18
  2. Replies: 19
    Last Post: 09 Jan 08,, 22:49
  3. Turkey is now the most anti-American country in the world
    By Zhang Fei in forum International Politics
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: 07 Aug 07,, 08:07
  4. Pope stresses family values in Brazil
    By xrough in forum International Economy
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 17 May 07,, 23:10
  5. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 28 Oct 06,, 06:05

Share this thread with friends:

Share this thread with friends:

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •