Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 65

Thread: Most decisive battles of all time.

  1. #1
    Staff Emeritus
    Military Professional
    Contrary by Nature.
    zraver's Avatar
    Join Date
    22 Oct 06
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    14,401

    Most decisive battles of all time.

    The link is to an article that describes the authors choices for the most decisive battles of all time. I disagree with his selection. Read and post your thoughts.

    http://www.historyplace.com/worldhis...ten/index.html

    I think Alesia belongs on the list. I don't think Stalingrad does (maybe Moscow).

    My List for military operations that changed the world.I picked events with greatest repercussions I think are still felt today.

    1. Salamis- preserved the nucleus of Western Culture
    2. Alesia- Rise of Julius Caesar and the foundation of Imperial Rome
    3. Actium- The birth of Imperial Rome
    4. Conquest of Qi (bloodless)- unification of China
    5. Manzikert- Arrival of the Turks
    6. Defeat of the Spanish Armada- Birth of British Sea Power
    7. Yorktown- Birth of America
    8. Battle of the Masurian Lakes- Moltke the Younger panics and dooms Germany in the West
    9. Pearl Harbor- Do not wake sleeping giants!
    10. Hiroshima- nuclear war, nuff said...

  2. #2
    Global Moderator
    Military Professional
    Defense Professional
    Albany Rifles's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Apr 07
    Location
    Prince George, VA
    Posts
    8,194
    Saratoga > Yorktown
    "The genius of you Americans is that you make no clear-cut stupid moves, only complicated stupid moves which make us wonder at the possibility that there may be something to them we are missing." - Gamal Abdel Nasser

  3. #3
    Staff Emeritus
    Military Professional
    Mostly Harmless
    bigross86's Avatar
    Join Date
    07 Aug 03
    Location
    Tel Aviv, Israel
    Posts
    14,070
    Midway, turned the tide of WWII. A loss at Midway would have extended the war for years, leading to millions more dead
    Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

    Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

  4. #4
    Administrator
    Lei Feng Protege
    Defense Professional
    Join Date
    23 Aug 05
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    Posts
    12,895
    BR,

    Midway, turned the tide of WWII. A loss at Midway would have extended the war for years, leading to millions more dead
    years is unlikely; it would have slowed down US progress by approximately 6 months. the biggest difference would be that the enormous air raids that shattered japan in late 1944-early 1945 would have also been set back, and japan might have felt more confident that it could go for a negotiated settlement despite the atom bombs and the prospect of an invasion. THAT might have led to millions more dead.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  5. #5
    Global Moderator
    Military Professional
    Defense Professional
    Albany Rifles's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Apr 07
    Location
    Prince George, VA
    Posts
    8,194
    And define loss at Midway...do the Japanese take the islands? Good luck sustaining them.

    What losses do the Japanes take? The loss of pilots hurt them more than the ships.

    The US still had fleet carriers...Sara and Ranger could move to the Pacific. Some Bogues could be pulled back from Lend Lease to handle Guadalcanal requirements.

    Big decks started coming on line late 42/early 43.

    And it was the subs which carried the fight for the first 12 months anyway.
    "The genius of you Americans is that you make no clear-cut stupid moves, only complicated stupid moves which make us wonder at the possibility that there may be something to them we are missing." - Gamal Abdel Nasser

  6. #6
    Staff Emeritus
    Military Professional
    Mostly Harmless
    bigross86's Avatar
    Join Date
    07 Aug 03
    Location
    Tel Aviv, Israel
    Posts
    14,070
    I say years, because a setback in the Pacific would have delayed the timetable in the Atlantic theater as well. A victory isn't about the islands themselves, it's about the carriers and the pilots. If the US loses more than just the Yorktown, even if Midway still stays in US hands, Japanese have strategic control of the Pacific, hampering US movement in the area.
    Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

    Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

  7. #7
    Staff Emeritus
    Military Professional
    Contrary by Nature.
    zraver's Avatar
    Join Date
    22 Oct 06
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    14,401
    Quote Originally Posted by bigross86 View Post
    I say years, because a setback in the Pacific would have delayed the timetable in the Atlantic theater as well. A victory isn't about the islands themselves, it's about the carriers and the pilots. If the US loses more than just the Yorktown, even if Midway still stays in US hands, Japanese have strategic control of the Pacific, hampering US movement in the area.
    Dissagree, without shifting a single point of production Japan was doomed from the moment it attacked Pearl Harbor. In 1942 the Us graduated 10,800 naval aviators. Japan cannot compete with that scale of production. Even if Japan sinks all 3 US fleet carriers, the US will still have 4 more with in a year. From July 43 to July 44 the Us would add 6 more. That doesn't include lights and escorts. We swamped them with production.

    AR, I disagree, Saratoga showed the Lobsterbacks could be beat, but it did not cripple British power in the Colonies. After Yorktown the combined US/Fr field army was supreme and the British ability to hold key cities and take the field was all but over.

  8. #8
    Senior Contributor Triple C's Avatar
    Join Date
    11 Apr 06
    Location
    Taipei, Taiwan
    Posts
    2,345
    I can't think of many modern battles that are decisive in the traditional sense of the word. It is almost certain that the bigger industrial nation wins out in the end. So I don't think any WWI/II battles could be on the list.
    All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
    -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

  9. #9
    Global Moderator
    Military Professional
    Defense Professional
    Albany Rifles's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Apr 07
    Location
    Prince George, VA
    Posts
    8,194
    Z,

    Saratoga opened an Alliance and drew the European powers into the war...which made it a world war and forced the British to split resources. Maintaining the West Indies, India, etc was more important than the NA Colonies. Saratoga also removed a field army from the table which further drained the British resources and caused them to stretch their army. Recruitment in the German principalities was suppressed. It also caused much of the Native Allies to abandon the British. Finally, the failure at Saratoga energized the peace wing of Parliament which grew stronger.

    Yorktown could have been Urbanna or Wilimngton. After King's Mountain, Cowpens and Guilford Courthouse Cornwallis' army was a mobile force looking for a surrender site. Yorktown was the final nail in a coffin which had been well hammered shut already.
    "The genius of you Americans is that you make no clear-cut stupid moves, only complicated stupid moves which make us wonder at the possibility that there may be something to them we are missing." - Gamal Abdel Nasser

  10. #10
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
    Join Date
    25 Aug 08
    Location
    Skopje, Macedonia
    Posts
    13,668
    Gaugamela?

    Tho, personally, Battle of Chaeronea is more dear
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  11. #11
    Senior Contributor Triple C's Avatar
    Join Date
    11 Apr 06
    Location
    Taipei, Taiwan
    Posts
    2,345
    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    Z,

    Maintaining the West Indies, India, etc was more important than the NA Colonies.
    In generating revenue, you mean? West Indies I can see--sugar was a big deal--but what was India producing at the time that was so valuable?
    All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
    -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

  12. #12
    Global Moderator
    Military Professional
    Defense Professional
    Albany Rifles's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Apr 07
    Location
    Prince George, VA
    Posts
    8,194
    They were looking to India to the future....they kept a long view. And as it became a world war far reaching geography became trading pieces at the post-war peace table.
    "The genius of you Americans is that you make no clear-cut stupid moves, only complicated stupid moves which make us wonder at the possibility that there may be something to them we are missing." - Gamal Abdel Nasser

  13. #13
    Senior Contributor Triple C's Avatar
    Join Date
    11 Apr 06
    Location
    Taipei, Taiwan
    Posts
    2,345
    AR,
    That is a very impressively long view, especially considering the haphazard way England conquered India and how much time it took for the subcontinent to become a vital strategic and financial asset for the empire.

    Dok,
    Yeah, Gaugamela--now that was a proper traditional battle of decision. Crowned heads rolled, empires died and born. Even for Napoleon's tastes, Alexander's tactics was too risky.

    A battle I will also nominate: The Battle Carjamarca, though more properly a massacre, cemented Spanish dominance over the erstwhile Incan Empire, and with it untold tons of silver and gold to fuel the Hapsburgs' wars. Not only the battle forged Spanish global hegemony, but it also indirectly contributed to the rise of western military power by keeping pan-continental warfare raging for two generations.
    Last edited by Triple C; 20 Jun 14, at 16:30.
    All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
    -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

  14. #14
    Staff Emeritus
    Military Professional
    Contrary by Nature.
    zraver's Avatar
    Join Date
    22 Oct 06
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    14,401
    Quote Originally Posted by Triple C View Post
    AR,
    That is a very impressively long view, especially considering the haphazard way England conquered India and how much time it took for the subcontinent to become a vital strategic and financial asset for the empire.

    Dok,
    Yeah, Gaugamela--now that was a proper traditional battle of decision. Crowned heads rolled, empires died and born. Even for Napoleon's tastes, Alexander's tactics was too risky.

    A battle I will also nominate: The Battle Carjamarca, though more properly a massacre, cemented Spanish dominance over the erstwhile Incan Empire, and with it untold tons of silver and gold to fuel the Hapsburgs' wars. Not only the battle forged Spanish global hegemony, but it also indirectly contributed to the rise of western military power by keeping pan-continental warfare raging for two generations.
    I considered the Spanish, but ultimately said bleh... Spain was never really able to capitalize on its position and frittered away its wealth and manpower in wars that did little to really set the stage for the modern world.

    AR, good points but I think a British naval victory over the French could have enabled Cornwallis to escape.

  15. #15
    Administrator
    Lei Feng Protege
    Defense Professional
    Join Date
    23 Aug 05
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    Posts
    12,895
    triple C,

    A battle I will also nominate: The Battle Carjamarca, though more properly a massacre, cemented Spanish dominance over the erstwhile Incan Empire, and with it untold tons of silver and gold to fuel the Hapsburgs' wars. Not only the battle forged Spanish global hegemony, but it also indirectly contributed to the rise of western military power by keeping pan-continental warfare raging for two generations.
    there was so much gold/silver unleashed by the fall of the Aztecs and the Incas that it would cause massive inflation in China, weakening the Ming badly. talk about global impact.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Most Decisive US Civil War Battle
    By Shek in forum American Civil War
    Replies: 164
    Last Post: 24 Sep 14,, 13:56
  2. Most decisive battle of World War 2
    By zraver in forum The World Wars
    Replies: 475
    Last Post: 09 May 11,, 16:51
  3. The Most Decisive Battle of WWII - ETO
    By deadkenny in forum The World Wars
    Replies: 372
    Last Post: 28 Sep 10,, 13:35
  4. PTO Naval Battles
    By Triple C in forum The World Wars
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 10 Dec 09,, 07:17
  5. Has A Soldier's Equipment Ever Proven Decisive?
    By Terence in forum Ground Warfare
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 23 May 07,, 03:51

Share this thread with friends:

Share this thread with friends:

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •