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Thread: Most decisive battles of all time.

  1. #61
    A Self Important Senior Contributor troung's Avatar
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    For Poland is the barrier to the everlasting peril of an Asiatic invasion
    Damn Asiatic hordes

    There is not the slightest doubt that, had we been victorious on the Vistula, the revolution would have set light to the entire continent of Europe


    Yet, strange to say, its importance was little grasped by western Europe, and since has remained little noticed.
    Poland, with a low tech army, invades Russia, fails and is chased all the way to Warsaw. Two low tech armies of around 100k clash, with a bunch of guys on horseback poking with lances. The Reds, relying on an even lower tech army at the end of its supplies, fail and are chased to the Curzon line.

    Poland didn't save Europe. They gambled on carving out an empire in Russia and failed dramatically, pushes the Russians back and signs a peace treaty.
    To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    Damn Asiatic hordes
    I merely quote the view of Lord D’Abernon but there can be little doubt that Tuchachevski despised civilisation and what he perceived of it's influence on Russia. During WW1 he was held as a POW at Ingolstadt. While there he said to Fervacque, a fellow prisoner: “A demon or a god animates oiur race. We shall make oiurselves drunk, because we cannot as yet make the world drunk. That will come.” Once Fervacque found him painting in discordant colours on a piece of cardboard the head of an atrocious idol. What is that? He asked him. “Do not laugh,” replied Tukhachevski, “I have told you that the Slavs are in want of a new religioun. They are being given Marxism; but aspects of that theology are too modern and too civilized. It is possible to mitigate that disagreeable state by returning to our Slav gods, who were deprived of their perogative and strength; nevertheless, they can soon regain them. There is Daschbog, the god of the sun; Stribog, the god of the storm; Wolos, the god of human arts and of poetry; and also Pierounn, the god of war and of lightning. For long I have hesitated to choose my particular god; but after reflection, I have accepted Pierounn, because once Marxism is thrust upon Russia, the most devastating wars will be let loose…we shall enter chaos and we shall not leave it util civilization is reduced to total ruin.”

    Among other quotes given by Fuller are “Seriously, it would be good for humanity were all books burnt, so that we could bathe in the fresh spring of ignorance. I even think that it is the sole means of preventing human-kind becoming sterile.” and “If Lenin is able to disencumber Russia from the old scrap iron of prejudices and de-westernize her, I will follow him. But he must raze all to the ground, and deliberately hurl us back into barbarism.”

    What really animated him was not the paganism of the Slavic Gods, he can have had little time for Wolos anyway and chose Pierounn (often equated with Norse Thor), but the barbarism of the horde. I think in this case some mention of 'horde barbarism' is justified. As Tuchachevski himself said; “The Russian Army is not like yours – the French. It is a horde, and its strength is that of a horde.”

    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    Poland, with a low tech army, invades Russia, fails and is chased all the way to Warsaw. Two low tech armies of around 100k clash, with a bunch of guys on horseback poking with lances. The Reds, relying on an even lower tech army at the end of its supplies, fail and are chased to the Curzon line.

    Poland didn't save Europe. They gambled on carving out an empire in Russia and failed dramatically, pushes the Russians back and signs a peace treaty.
    I think this a little too simplistic and Poland was certainly not trying to carve an empire out of Russia. The fact is that 1919-20 Poland had just re-emerged from partition, Russia was still involved in civil war and Ukraine and Lithuania were also trying to assert their independence. Polands boarders with war all over Russia and Ukraine were unset. There was actually a Polish - Ukrainian war first although later many Ukrainian fought for Poland against the Red Army.

    I also think you discount the power and influence of the new religion of communism. Again from Fuller;

    In Austria, Czechoslovakia and Germany the workers refused to allow munitions to pass through their countries to Poland. “On August 6 the British Labour Party published a pamphlet which stated that the workers of Great Britain would take no part in the war as allies of Poland.” In Paris, the French socialists, through their organ “le Humanite,” spoke of a “war against the soviet Republic by the Polishi government on the orers of anglo-French Imperialism and cried ‘Not a man, not a sou, not a shell for reactionary and capitalist Poland. Long live the Russian Revolution. Long live the Workman’s International’.”, while in Danzig the dockers refused to unload munitions. Of all European peoples the Hungarians alone were friendly to the Poles because under the hideous regime of bela Kun they had tasted the fruits of the Boleshevik revolution.

    Was a defeated Germany ready to resist a victorious Red Army preceeded with revolutionary propaganda in 1920-21 is the question. If you have any doubt about this you must accept the importance of the Battle of Warsaw.

  3. #63
    A Self Important Senior Contributor troung's Avatar
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    merely quote the view of Lord D’Abernon but there can be little doubt that Tuchachevski despised civilisation and what he perceived of it's influence on Russia.
    Doesn't change the fact that this was a bungled Polish invasion of Russia.

    Once Fervacque found him painting in discordant colours on a piece of cardboard the head of an atrocious idol. What is that? He asked him. “Do not laugh,” replied Tukhachevski, “I have told you that the Slavs are in want of a new religioun. They are being given Marxism; but aspects of that theology are too modern and too civilized. It is possible to mitigate that disagreeable state by returning to our Slav gods, who were deprived of their perogative and strength; nevertheless, they can soon regain them. There is Daschbog, the god of the sun; Stribog, the god of the storm; Wolos, the god of human arts and of poetry; and also Pierounn, the god of war and of lightning. For long I have hesitated to choose my particular god; but after reflection, I have accepted Pierounn, because once Marxism is thrust upon Russia, the most devastating wars will be let loose…we shall enter chaos and we shall not leave it util civilization is reduced to total ruin.”
    Mindless stuff about the weather.

    On August 6 the British Labour Party published a pamphlet which stated that the workers of Great Britain would take no part in the war as allies of Poland.” In Paris, the French socialists, through their organ “le Humanite,” spoke of a “war against the soviet Republic by the Polishi government on the orers of anglo-French Imperialism and cried ‘Not a man, not a sou, not a shell for reactionary and capitalist Poland. Long live the Russian Revolution. Long live the Workman’s International’
    Leftist workers not wanting to support a Polish land grab doesn't mean a third world militia was going to sweep through Paris.

    “The Russian Army is not like yours – the French. It is a horde, and its strength is that of a horde.”
    It wasn't even a proper horde - it was a lightly armed badly trained army which got checked by a third world military which had a handful of tanks and armored cars. 100k Russian infantry/cavalry with lances got checked by about the same number of Poles with a couple of AFVs - hardly an earth shaking threat. Neither side couldut more then a million men in the field. It's a bit like losing to Romania or some other soup can.

    Hell Estonia, Finland and Latvia checked various leftist forces. The Baltic states IIRC had already signed a treaty with the Soviets before Warsaw.

    I think this a little too simplistic and Poland was certainly not trying to carve an empire out of Russia. The fact is that 1919-20 Poland had just re-emerged from partition, Russia was still involved in civil war and Ukraine and Lithuania were also trying to assert their independence. Polands boarders with war all over Russia and Ukraine were unset. There was actually a Polish - Ukrainian war first although later many Ukrainian fought for Poland against the Red Army.
    Poland gambled on expanding its frontiers into Russia/Ukraine (and Lithuania) - and lost. Two effectively third world successor states to a nation which lost WW1 poked lances at each other and Russia lost. This was one of numerous conflicts going on in Eastern Europe not some evil Asian plot.

    Meanwhile France and England were busy poison gassing and machine gunning Middle Easterners.

    Was a defeated Germany ready to resist a victorious Red Army preceeded with revolutionary propaganda in 1920-21 is the question. If you have any doubt about this you must accept the importance of the Battle of Warsaw.
    Germany had finished murdering communists, socialists and random Jews the year before.

    These topics seem to assume "Western Civilization" is some damsel in distress at risk of Asian hordes.
    Last edited by troung; 19 Sep 14, at 04:06.
    To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Germany was counting on Japan to keep Siberian divisions in Siberia ... and told her so. Japan declined.
    1. Those divisions may have remained in Siberia, but the Comintern had a successful agent in Tokyo.

    2. Even when he decided to trust Sorge, Stalin still hedged his bets when he shifted divisions. Winter was only a few weeks away when the Soviet command started redeploying units westward, so the risk of Japanese action was mitigated by the wane of the campaigning season.

    3. If the Germans had really wanted the Japanese to stage a holding action in Siberia, perhaps they should have given the Japanese some earlier and clearer notification of their intention to invade the USSR.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    US went Germany first... In the battle of production We beat the pants off japan with both arms tied behind our back. The Japanese leadership made so many assumptions that proved to be dead wrong. Because they planned for a short war they never corrected several fatal flaws; 1. lack of wingmen for fighter pilots, 2. lack of mechanics for air fields, 3. lack of damage control training on ships, 4. lack of ramped up ship building (fleet, merchant and escort) going into the war, 5. Overly complex plans that diluted forces, 6. no pool of trained pilots to act as a strategic reserve and 7. did no really use submarines to interdict transport and supply shipments to Australia or Hawaii, and 8. lack of logistics planning. The two big Japanese success during the war- Singapore and the Philippines are do at least as much to really bad allied commanders as any Japanese acumen at war. At the end of the day, the Japanese infantryman's ability to absorb and dish out punishment by itself was not enough and no better than Allied troops after 1942.

    The USA enjoyed a wide advantage in most aggregate indices of output. However, the aggregate economic advantage of the USA, and indeed of the Western allies as a whole, was offset in the first half of the war by some critical constraints. The chief of those constraints in 1941-43 were shipping tonnage and convoy escorts.

    In the event of a Russian political collapse in the autumn of 1941, it would not have been possible for the USA to devote adequate forces to attacking Japan's "Southern Area" during 1942-43. The shipping situation would not have permitted it, because the commitments to Britain, North Africa, and the Middle East would have necessarily become much larger.

    In the event of a Russian political collapse, many things work together in a vicious circle against the Western Allies. German air forces are free for deployment in the West and in the Mediterranean. The overall fuel consumption of German forces is markedly lower, freeing allocation for improved training and increased activity by the Italian fleet. Industrial production does not need to be so heavily dedicated for weapons for the land forces. Many skilled workers in uniform can be released to industry. Sweden, Vichy France, Spain and Turkey now come under much heavier pressure to cooperate with the Axis.

    In 1940, when Britain was being bombed during the Blitz, Germany's submarine fleet was inadequate. In 1942-43, when Germany had a considerable submarine fleet, its air forces were too heavily engaged. But in the event of a Soviet collapse in 1941, Britain would face a combination of air and naval pressure that it never actually had to face during the war. Bottom line: more American help needed--much more, and all of it requires shipping. Remember that the fruits of the mass shipyard output don't become available until late '42 at the earliest.

    North Africa and Middle East become big problems post-Soviet collapse. How can Turkey deny transit to German forces when the Germans have at least 60 divisions to spare with which to threaten them? How can Spain deny transit to German forces under like circumstances? How would the Allies interdict the flow of troops and supplies to Libya and Tunisia when the Germans don't have half their air force stuck in Russia?

    Result: a massive Allied effort would have to go around the Cape, which is about as inefficient as it gets in terms of shipping. Thousands of miles with empty bottoms, dismal throughput.

    Unless you think Sledgehammer would somehow solve the problem?

    So I would argue that in a 1941 Soviet collapse scenario, Japan is looking pretty safe for at least two or three years, regardless of their doctrinal issues. Of course, in that event maybe the Western Allies just lift the embargos, sell out the Chinese, and avoid war that way.

    It's a huge relief to many people in the world that the massive defeats of 1941 did not result in the political collapse of the Soviet regime.

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