Originally posted by zraver
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What if we didn't ally with USSR in 1941?
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"Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."
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Originally posted by Ironduke View PostIn your scenario, the conventional war is anything but a foregone conclusion, especially less so with Soviet forces fought to exhaustion, perhaps not even in the war anymore, at a time when the US has nukes. If the Western Allies don't sue for peace, I don't see any scenario in which the US won't start using nukes. Maybe not a lone B-29, but if the US perceives it can bring an abrupt end to the war with a decisive strike without having to commit to a conventional strategy that could cost millions of causalities, I think it's logical to assume that it would.
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Originally posted by zraver View PostHow to get a 3 ship element over Berlin and not have it shot down dropping atomic secrets all over Germany without the big bright surprise announcement?
Send up 1200 bombers, one of which has the bomb, escorted by 800 fighters, against the first city. We did that over Dresden and lost 8 aircraft. Keep dropping nukes against whatever cities it's practical to do so.Last edited by Ironduke; 06 Jan 18,, 09:56."Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."
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Originally posted by Ironduke View PostRoosevelt wanted it done during the Battle of the Bulge, but the bomb wasn't ready yet.
Send up 1200 bombers, one of which has the bomb, escorted by 800 fighters, against the first city. We did that over Dresden and lost 8 aircraft. Keep dropping nukes against whatever cities it's practical to do so.
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IIRC the B-36 had a ceiling that would be untouchable by Germany.There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov
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Originally posted by astralis View PostIIRC the B-36 had a ceiling that would be untouchable by Germany.
Asty,
IIRC the B-36 had a ceiling that would be untouchable by Germany.
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Until the B-47, YB-35/YB-49 or B-36 come on line, the ability of the USAAF/USAF bombers to get high enough to avoid German radar and heavy guns doesn't really exist. This didn't matter as much against bomber streams, so many bombers could be sent in that more than 96% would get through. The Germans did't aim, they just identified the altitude and sent up flak into kill boxes the bombers had too fly through. Outside of the kill boxes, Luftwaffe fighters were free to roam. By the time we have the bomb, the Germans are using the Me-262 in combat and it was immune to interception. The Me-262 also more than makes up the speed difference between the B-17 and B-29. Even a clean B-29 can't out run a jet. In Korea Mig-15's hit B-29's and B-50's so hard we were forced to stop using them.
We know now, that if the stability and range problems could be solved, the YB-49 bomber would be the best bet for delivering the A-bomb over Germany around 1949/50. It likely had a small enough radar cross section and fast enough speed to be mistaken for something like an RAF Mosquito recon plane, something the German's rarely tried to intercept due to its speed and agility. Though if WWII had gone on till 1950, Germany may have had more and better SAM's...
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If the war against Germany by the Western Allies is being dragged out to late 1945 and beyond, Germany's not going to be the only one in the jet fighter game. P-80s and Gloster Meteors are going to be entering the mix. Me-262s aren't immune to interception in your extended war scenario.
The P-80 Shooting Star has a service ceiling of 45,000 feet, while the Me-262's was 37,500 feet. That's an enormous tactical advantage. The P-80 is also more maneuverable and a smidge faster at high altitude than the Me-262 is. The Me-262 has a slight edge in these regards below 20,000 feet, but that's not where the bombers are. And the US is capable of turning out thousands, and had originally planned to. The only reason we didn't is because the war was coming to an end.
The B-39 flown in late 1944 had a service ceiling of 36,000 feet, which is beyond the effective ceiling of the 8.8, 10.5, and 12.8 flak cannons (source). It was a perfectly fine aircraft in every respect, and it's just V-3420s engines slapped onto a B-29 airframe. It could have been put into mass production with ease. The Me-262 would have a much more difficult time executing its rollercoaster tactic starting their dive from 1500 feet above, rather than 6000.Last edited by Ironduke; 08 Jan 18,, 23:53."Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."
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[QUOTE=Ironduke;1033566]If the war against Germany by the Western Allies is being dragged out to late 1945 and beyond, Germany's not going to be the only one in the jet fighter game. P-80s and Gloster Meteors are going to be entering the mix. Me-262s aren't immune to interception in your extended war scenario.
The P-80 Shooting Star has a service ceiling of 45,000 feet, while the Me-262's was 37,500 feet. That's an enormous tactical advantage. The P-80 is also more maneuverable and a smidge faster at high altitude than the Me-262 is. The Me-262 has a slight edge in these regards below 20,000 feet, but that's not where the bombers are. And the US is capable of turning out thousands, and had originally planned to. The only reason we didn't is because the war was coming to an end.[/quote}
Without airfields a lot closer they are not flying to Berlin. But if the armies are already in France, no need to nuke Berlin.
The B-39 flown in late 1944 had a service ceiling of 36,000 feet, which is beyond the effective ceiling of the 8.8, 10.5, and 12.8 flak cannons (source). It was a perfectly fine aircraft in every respect, and it's just V-3420s engines slapped onto a B-29 airframe. It could have been put into mass production with ease. The Me-262 would have a much more difficult time executing its rollercoaster tactic starting their dive from 1500 feet above, rather than 6000.
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Talking about stuff like the Go-229 is a bit unrealistic. The P-80, B-39, atomic bomb, Me-262 were all viable, existent technologies.
The Enola Gay made a non-stop round trip from Tinian to Hiroshima, and that's 3,150 miles. It's less than 1,100 miles flying distance between England and Berlin. There are plenty of cities (Hamburg, Cologne, Dortmund, Essen, Stuttgart, etc.) within 800-900 miles. There are no insurmountable technological or logistical challenges for the US to nuke Germany in 1945."Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."
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Originally posted by Ironduke View PostTalking about stuff like the Go-229 is a bit unrealistic. The P-80, B-39, atomic bomb, Me-262 were all viable, existent technologies.
{quote]The Enola Gay made a non-stop round trip from Tinian to Hiroshima, and that's 3,150 miles. It's less than 1,100 miles flying distance between England and Berlin. There are plenty of cities (Hamburg, Cologne, Dortmund, Essen, Stuttgart, etc.) within 800-900 miles. There are no insurmountable technological or logistical challenges for the US to nuke Germany in 1945.[/QUOTE]
The P-80 didn't have that range
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