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Thread: What if we didn't ally with USSR in 1941?

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    1,345 miles with drop tanks.
    That is the Korean war era F-80C. Not the I40/J31 powered P-80A

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    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    That is the Korean war era F-80C. Not the I40/J31 powered P-80A
    Pretty sure it's the P-80A.

    All production models, A through C, used the J-33.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    Pretty sure it's the P-80A.

    All production models, A through C, used the J-33.
    A's were upgraded to the C standard

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    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    From the Pilot's Flight Operating Instructions for Army Model P-80A-1 Airplane, March 5, 1945.

    You add the the range from these two charts together to get total range.

    Say 30,000 feet, landing with 50-gallon reserve, at maximum continuous power the range is 1265 miles. Maximum range condition, it's 1415 miles. The numbers would be exactly the same for 35,000 feet landing with a 100-gallon reserve.

    The absolute maximum is 1,835 miles, flying at 40,000 feet and running out of fuel just as landing. Needless to say, that isn't practical.

    Now if the J-33 used in production models for whatever reason provides longer range, as you implied, the range would be even further.






    http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...80A-Manual.pdf
    Last edited by Ironduke; 10 Jan 18, at 15:22.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    From the Pilot's Flight Operating Instructions for Army Model P-80A-1 Airplane, March 5, 1945.

    You add the the range from these two charts together to get total range.

    Say 30,000 feet, landing with 50-gallon reserve, at maximum continuous power the range is 1265 miles. Maximum range condition, it's 1415 miles. The numbers would be exactly the same for 35,000 feet landing with a 100-gallon reserve.

    The absolute maximum is 1,835 miles, flying at 40,000 feet and running out of fuel just as landing. Needless to say, that isn't practical.

    Now if the J-33 used in production models for whatever reason provides longer range, as you implied, the range would be even further.






    http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...80A-Manual.pdf
    Did you look at the bottom chart for combat ranges not ferry? The P-80A had 285 gallons of onboard fuel. B and reffitted A (modernized to C standard) added 200 gallons via tip tanks The P-80A wasn't going to Berlin and fighting, and then flying back. Not only that but given the gap in speed between a cruising P-80A and a B-29/39 the P-80 is gonna burn up a lot of its fuel and maximum miles flying a pattern that has its speed over ground match the speed of the bombers


    The F-86 had a bit over 500 gallons internally plus up to 400 gallons external. 900 gallons of fuel is how they got to the Yalu, fought and got back.

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    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Did you look at the bottom chart for combat ranges not ferry? The P-80A had 285 gallons of onboard fuel. B and reffitted A (modernized to C standard) added 200 gallons via tip tanks The P-80A wasn't going to Berlin and fighting, and then flying back. Not only that but given the gap in speed between a cruising P-80A and a B-29/39 the P-80 is gonna burn up a lot of its fuel and maximum miles flying a pattern that has its speed over ground match the speed of the bombers

    The F-86 had a bit over 500 gallons internally plus up to 400 gallons external. 900 gallons of fuel is how they got to the Yalu, fought and got back.
    They didn't even do that with piston-engined fighters utilized in fighter escort operations over Germany. There was a phased relay system for fighter escorts in which separate escort groups would provide coverage for progressive range blocs, specifically for reasons you've brought up: to maximize fuel economy and extend fighter escort range. The P-80A was perfectly capable of doing this.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 11 Jan 18, at 02:21.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    They didn't even do that with piston-engined fighters utilized in fighter escort operations over Germany. There was a phased relay system for fighter escorts in which separate escort groups would provide coverage for progressive range blocs, specifically for reasons you've brought up: to maximize fuel economy and extend fighter escort range. The P-80A was perfectly capable of doing this.
    They did that for bomber streams, set up relays for a single 3 plane box and you give the game away.

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    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    They did that for bomber streams, set up relays for a single 3 plane box and you give the game away.
    The A-bomb carrying aircraft could be inserted at the tail end of a bomber stream flying en route over City A (nuke target), meanwhile the stream continues on to City B with its conventional payload.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    The A-bomb carrying aircraft could be inserted at the tail end of a bomber stream flying en route over City A (nuke target), meanwhile the stream continues on to City B with its conventional payload.
    Tail end... most expensive weapon in history in the position of the bomber stream most vulnerable to enemy fighters (no support), and flak (had plenty of time to find the height and bearing despite chaff and jamming). Sorry, just don't see it.

  10. #100
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Tail end... most expensive weapon in history in the position of the bomber stream most vulnerable to enemy fighters (no support), and flak (had plenty of time to find the height and bearing despite chaff and jamming). Sorry, just don't see it.
    If you're at the same altitude as the bomber stream (which varied). Like I mentioned before, I'm envisioning B-39s that fly beyond the effective flak range of the German guns. The bomber stream can be B-17s or B-24s, or even B-29s, with the B-39s above. And they can surely have fighter support. The Germans would not know they exist, expect to be countering them, and may not even notice them at all.

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