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Thread: What if we didn't ally with USSR in 1941?

  1. #76
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    US bombing Berlin is a huge technical problem. The German air defenses begin to be emplaced and developed as a result of Bomber Command so a delayed US entry won't lead to a sudden change in how Germany devotes resources. If anything they get more time to emplace more guns. Even if the B-29 can get above the altitude of the 128mm and 150mm ADA guns, we still have to worry about the Me-262 which is quite capable of smoking an isolated B-29.
    In your scenario, the conventional war is anything but a foregone conclusion, especially less so with Soviet forces fought to exhaustion, perhaps not even in the war anymore, at a time when the US has nukes. If the Western Allies don't sue for peace, I don't see any scenario in which the US won't start using nukes. Maybe not a lone B-29, but if the US perceives it can bring an abrupt end to the war with a decisive strike without having to commit to a conventional strategy that could cost millions of causalities, I think it's logical to assume that it would.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    In your scenario, the conventional war is anything but a foregone conclusion, especially less so with Soviet forces fought to exhaustion, perhaps not even in the war anymore, at a time when the US has nukes. If the Western Allies don't sue for peace, I don't see any scenario in which the US won't start using nukes. Maybe not a lone B-29, but if the US perceives it can bring an abrupt end to the war with a decisive strike without having to commit to a conventional strategy that could cost millions of causalities, I think it's logical to assume that it would.
    How to get a 3 ship element over Berlin and not have it shot down dropping atomic secrets all over Germany without the big bright surprise announcement?

  3. #78
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    How to get a 3 ship element over Berlin and not have it shot down dropping atomic secrets all over Germany without the big bright surprise announcement?
    Roosevelt wanted it done during the Battle of the Bulge, but the bomb wasn't ready yet.

    Send up 1200 bombers, one of which has the bomb, escorted by 800 fighters, against the first city. We did that over Dresden and lost 8 aircraft. Keep dropping nukes against whatever cities it's practical to do so.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 06 Jan 18, at 09:56.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    Roosevelt wanted it done during the Battle of the Bulge, but the bomb wasn't ready yet.

    Send up 1200 bombers, one of which has the bomb, escorted by 800 fighters, against the first city. We did that over Dresden and lost 8 aircraft. Keep dropping nukes against whatever cities it's practical to do so.
    Doing that would turn the A-bomb into a self inflicted anti-aircraft bomb.

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    IIRC the B-36 had a ceiling that would be untouchable by Germany.
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    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Doing that would turn the A-bomb into a self inflicted anti-aircraft bomb.
    We're not dealing with the Tsar Bomba here, B-29s move at 6 miles per minute and can get to a safe distance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    IIRC the B-36 had a ceiling that would be untouchable by Germany.
    You can't drop an A bomb in the middle of a bomber stream.

    Asty,

    IIRC the B-36 had a ceiling that would be untouchable by Germany.
    From most heavy flak guns yes, not from the naval 127 and 150mm guns or the Flak 40 128mm.

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    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    You can't drop an A bomb in the middle of a bomber stream.
    So drop it near the end.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 07 Jan 18, at 03:48.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    So drop it near the end.
    That might work the first time...

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    Until the B-47, YB-35/YB-49 or B-36 come on line, the ability of the USAAF/USAF bombers to get high enough to avoid German radar and heavy guns doesn't really exist. This didn't matter as much against bomber streams, so many bombers could be sent in that more than 96% would get through. The Germans did't aim, they just identified the altitude and sent up flak into kill boxes the bombers had too fly through. Outside of the kill boxes, Luftwaffe fighters were free to roam. By the time we have the bomb, the Germans are using the Me-262 in combat and it was immune to interception. The Me-262 also more than makes up the speed difference between the B-17 and B-29. Even a clean B-29 can't out run a jet. In Korea Mig-15's hit B-29's and B-50's so hard we were forced to stop using them.

    We know now, that if the stability and range problems could be solved, the YB-49 bomber would be the best bet for delivering the A-bomb over Germany around 1949/50. It likely had a small enough radar cross section and fast enough speed to be mistaken for something like an RAF Mosquito recon plane, something the German's rarely tried to intercept due to its speed and agility. Though if WWII had gone on till 1950, Germany may have had more and better SAM's...

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    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    If the war against Germany by the Western Allies is being dragged out to late 1945 and beyond, Germany's not going to be the only one in the jet fighter game. P-80s and Gloster Meteors are going to be entering the mix. Me-262s aren't immune to interception in your extended war scenario.

    The P-80 Shooting Star has a service ceiling of 45,000 feet, while the Me-262's was 37,500 feet. That's an enormous tactical advantage. The P-80 is also more maneuverable and a smidge faster at high altitude than the Me-262 is. The Me-262 has a slight edge in these regards below 20,000 feet, but that's not where the bombers are. And the US is capable of turning out thousands, and had originally planned to. The only reason we didn't is because the war was coming to an end.

    The B-39 flown in late 1944 had a service ceiling of 36,000 feet, which is beyond the effective ceiling of the 8.8, 10.5, and 12.8 flak cannons (source). It was a perfectly fine aircraft in every respect, and it's just V-3420s engines slapped onto a B-29 airframe. It could have been put into mass production with ease. The Me-262 would have a much more difficult time executing its rollercoaster tactic starting their dive from 1500 feet above, rather than 6000.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 08 Jan 18, at 23:53.

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    [QUOTE=Ironduke;1033566]If the war against Germany by the Western Allies is being dragged out to late 1945 and beyond, Germany's not going to be the only one in the jet fighter game. P-80s and Gloster Meteors are going to be entering the mix. Me-262s aren't immune to interception in your extended war scenario.

    The P-80 Shooting Star has a service ceiling of 45,000 feet, while the Me-262's was 37,500 feet. That's an enormous tactical advantage. The P-80 is also more maneuverable and a smidge faster at high altitude than the Me-262 is. The Me-262 has a slight edge in these regards below 20,000 feet, but that's not where the bombers are. And the US is capable of turning out thousands, and had originally planned to. The only reason we didn't is because the war was coming to an end.[/quote}

    Without airfields a lot closer they are not flying to Berlin. But if the armies are already in France, no need to nuke Berlin.

    The B-39 flown in late 1944 had a service ceiling of 36,000 feet, which is beyond the effective ceiling of the 8.8, 10.5, and 12.8 flak cannons (source). It was a perfectly fine aircraft in every respect, and it's just V-3420s engines slapped onto a B-29 airframe. It could have been put into mass production with ease. The Me-262 would have a much more difficult time executing its rollercoaster tactic starting their dive from 1500 feet above, rather than 6000.
    Assuming the allies didn't waste the surprise early and give the Germans time to develop a higher altitude version or got the Go-229 into production with an estimated service ceiling of 52,000' and a 550mph cruising speed

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    Talking about stuff like the Go-229 is a bit unrealistic. The P-80, B-39, atomic bomb, Me-262 were all viable, existent technologies.

    The Enola Gay made a non-stop round trip from Tinian to Hiroshima, and that's 3,150 miles. It's less than 1,100 miles flying distance between England and Berlin. There are plenty of cities (Hamburg, Cologne, Dortmund, Essen, Stuttgart, etc.) within 800-900 miles. There are no insurmountable technological or logistical challenges for the US to nuke Germany in 1945.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    Talking about stuff like the Go-229 is a bit unrealistic. The P-80, B-39, atomic bomb, Me-262 were all viable, existent technologies.
    The Go-229 was flying in prototype form

    {quote]The Enola Gay made a non-stop round trip from Tinian to Hiroshima, and that's 3,150 miles. It's less than 1,100 miles flying distance between England and Berlin. There are plenty of cities (Hamburg, Cologne, Dortmund, Essen, Stuttgart, etc.) within 800-900 miles. There are no insurmountable technological or logistical challenges for the US to nuke Germany in 1945.[/QUOTE]

    The P-80 didn't have that range

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    1,345 miles with drop tanks.

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