Pakistan Army launches Zarb e Azb(Sharp and Cutting) operation in North Waziristan

[cirrrocco]

i agree some members of the Pakistan army does had relations with LeT in the PAST But they are not part of the army/isi right now.Raheel Sharif approach is much different

RAW has supported the Baloch insurgency and is also involved along with NDS in aiding TTP sanctuaries in Afghanistan.

Oh that must mean D gang and Hafeez must be in jail now and just about to be extradited to India? Let's do this. Next year around the same time, let's come back and talk about the same assholes. I bet they will still be in Pure land.

The delusions that Pakistan come up with is just funny

[Oracle]

Insurgencies take time. There is a lot of cynicism about it. Peshawar school attack would not happen otherwise.

They way they do it looks like pest control, tell the residents to leave then smoke the place out. Move on to the next. Rebuild destroyed villages.

It means a temporary setback in personnel until more can be raised if any are willing. 2600 is a large number.

I know tackling insurgency takes time. But it doesn't take forever. Giving up strategic assets are not in PA's interests. Lists are being drawn, selective targets are being eliminated, and the civilians are told of objectives being met through photo-ops. The way they are doing it is letting the leaders of outfits escape the bombardment and COIN ops (while lower level Jihadis are butchered), to live another day, raise funding and recruit more Jihadis and do the PA's proxy bidding by creating hit-and-run insurgencies in India and Afghanistan.

If it is otherwise, someone please tell me why Hafiz Saeed and Lakhvi have not been hanged? Is the judiciary in Pakistan incompetent or complicit? Lakhvi OTOH enjoys conjugal visits in prison. And we all know why. Pakistani army's '$20bn' business. Keep raising the Kashmir bogey from time to time, sneak in terrorists in India to create mayhem, a persistent commentary of how a Hindu India is hell-bent on destroying Pakistan - all and more to get the support of the civilians. Killing of their own school kids have not moved the PA and it still discriminates between good and bad terrorists. Takes time, right? Let's wait for another year to discuss the same.

This (Former US general calls for targeting terrorist havens in Pakistan) chorus is getting louder.

[Oracle]

i agree some members of the Pakistan army does had relations with LeT in the PAST But they are not part of the army/isi right now.Raheel Sharif approach is much different

Now you agree? And if the approach is different, the least that Raheel Sharif would have done is thrown Saeed and Dawood in prison. You think I buy it, or for that matter anybody would? Approach doesn't matter. Results do.

What's happening in Pakistan after the school attack is selective hanging of some Jihadis to pacify civilians who lost their kids. Mark my words, nothing would change on the ground as long as the PA is more powerful than the civilian government.

RAW has supported the Baloch insurgency and is also involved along with NDS in aiding TTP sanctuaries in Afghanistan.

Inconsistent and inaccurate. Apart from some murmurs, and tid bits in Pakistani press, nothing has come out of it. Pervez Musharraf said it once, yeah. The same guy behind the Kargil attack, who did't even take back PA regulars body killed in the war, and who went on to become the PA Chief. Says much about Pakistani institutions and statements from those actually in power in Pakistan. Had Pakistan respected the land, people and it's resources there would have been no insurgency in Balochistan. Now for some brain exercise. Do you think had R&AW supported the Baloch insurgency and aided TTP, the Americans who led the NATO and ISAF in Afghanistan would have not come on record and admonished India? OTOH, if India had supported the Baloch insurgency, it would have met with success. Again, it's the institutions. 1971 is a case in point.

[Double Edge]

Sorry but i don't agree that wrt indian point of view,a stable and growing Pakistan by no mean is in favor of india.

There are Indian views that advocate fomenting instability in Pakistan as it means Pak is distracted and can use less resources against India. It's a short sighted and unsustainable view. Basically a tit for tat and lacking in vision. This is how a wounded animal behaves.

Just think what normalised relations with Pakistan will do for Hindu muslim relations in India itself. Obvious gain right there isn't it.

Well sir it doesn't make sense for PA to engage india on eastern front when today half of our strength is busy fighting on the western front.Why would they do so?let suppose if it escalate to a war,PA will be the most affected because of less defensive power on the eastern front.

By engage i mean speak to and arrive at an understanding. Nawaz is willing but he does not have the power. The buck does not stop with him.

[Double Edge]

I know tackling insurgency takes time. But it doesn't take forever.

ok, so how much time do they deserve ? these efforts started six months ago.

key here is to see how persistent these efforts are, how effective and what the results are. A year from now, what the situation will be.

Giving up strategic assets are not in PA's interests. Lists are being drawn, selective targets are being eliminated, and the civilians are told of objectives being met through photo-ops.

They bomb their people, there is no house to house that i'm aware of. How counter productive is this in the long term. This is what they can do with the resources they have. Some one will say its over the top and blunt without any surgical precision, others say its not enough.

Always this tension between force and settlement. How much is enough. No one size fits all. Their call. In the end if they get it wrong they will be the first to pay for it.

The way they are doing it is letting the leaders of outfits escape the bombardment and COIN ops (while lower level Jihadis are butchered), to live another day, raise funding and recruit more Jihadis and do the PA's proxy bidding by creating hit-and-run insurgencies in India and Afghanistan.

SO they lose personnel, now they need to get more. How easy or not is it. If they have no fighters then what do these leaders do. Settle or continue the fight. We don't know.

If it is otherwise, someone please tell me why Hafiz Saeed and Lakhvi have not been hanged? Is the judiciary in Pakistan incompetent or complicit? Lakhvi OTOH enjoys conjugal visits in prison.

I would treat this one separetly, it has its own issues. Thread is about zarb e azab, this means actions taken against TTP.

And we all know why. Pakistani army's '$20bn' business. Keep raising the Kashmir bogey from time to time, sneak in terrorists in India to create mayhem, a persistent commentary of how a Hindu India is hell-bent on destroying Pakistan - all and more to get the support of the civilians. Killing of their own school kids have not moved the PA and it still discriminates between good and bad terrorists. Takes time, right? Let's wait for another year to discuss the same.

This (Former US general calls for targeting terrorist havens in Pakistan) chorus is getting louder.

Rhetoric by people with experience in insurgency who forget what it entails when Pakistan is involved. If you go after everybody then all ally and decide the real enemy is the foreign proxy in Islamabad & Rawalpindi. All traitors. What happened to your legitimacy to lead and authority to carry out strikes ? weaker.

Am more interested in what the people leading this fight are thinking. What is their strategy. What or not constitutes success :)

[Oracle]

ok, so how much time do they deserve ? these efforts started six months ago.

key here is to see how persistent these efforts are, how effective and what the results are. A year from now, what the situation will be.

The US Secretary of State included Pakistan on the list of countries that repeatedly provided support for acts of International terrorism in 1993, ofcourse, until the war on terror that started after 9/11. So Pakistan have had 22 years since then to discontinue State sponsored terrorism. What about 26/11(?), 6+ years now. However, for arguments sake, let's wait for another 6 months. 1 year is a significant amount of time, if the will is there.

This operation is not about insurgency being tackled or about persistence. It's psy-ops to mask the complicity of the Army and the Islamic fundamentalists within the Army & ISI, to make the civilian government look even weaker, and attaining a greater sense of trust from the civilians in the process. If the civilian government is strong, the Army would lose its relevance and also it's 20+ billion US dollar business. It's not about Kashmir, it's not even about the kids killed in Peshawar, it's about money. Billions of it. Oh and well foreign aid. Sixty years of US aid to Pakistan: Get the data

They bomb their people, there is no house to house that i'm aware of. How counter productive is this in the long term. This is what they can do with the resources they have. Some one will say its over the top and blunt without any surgical precision, others say its not enough.

Always this tension between force and settlement. How much is enough. No one size fits all. Their call. In the end if they get it wrong they will be the first to pay for it.

AFAIK, there are searches after bombardments. It's not like they'd bomb and guess all Jihadis have died and march to an iftar party. This is counter-productive in the sense that no high value targets are eliminated. Makes brain-washing and recruitment easy for those in command. Most of them are foot soldiers. So, there's a leak. Whether it's from within the Army & ISI, or a select few within it will be known in due time. We can just speculate right now. Some did come true as in Osama Bin Laden hiding right under the nose of the PA.

SO they lose personnel, now they need to get more. How easy or not is it. If they have no fighters then what do these leaders do. Settle or continue the fight. We don't know.

I replied that in my earlier post. Live to fight another day, and when the call comes from Rawalpindi, do their bidding.

I would treat this one separetly, it has its own issues. Thread is about zarb e azab, this means actions taken against TTP.

That point was to show the duplicity of this so called war on terror or Zarb-e-Azab or whatever. We can leave it here. Fine by me.

Rhetoric by people with experience in insurgency who forget what it entails when Pakistan is involved.

Very subtle and to the point. :) Most wouldn't understand, you need to write a para instead of hitting with a line. The thing is ex-Generals, Politicians, CIA, contractors all have at one point or the other expressed displeasure on the WoT after their services were over. They are professionals and know better what ails Washington's foreign policy to give Pakistan such a leeway. Someone said it right, when he said - To fix Afghanistan, we need to fix Pakistan first. The days of Islamic terrorism would be over, when Washington acts on the said quote.

If you go after everybody then all ally and decide the real enemy is the foreign proxy in Islamabad & Rawalpindi. All traitors. What happened to your legitimacy to lead and authority to carry out strikes ? weaker.

Policy makers in US have to figure that out. I thought a change of government (from Bush to Obama) would do the trick, but Obama continued with the same policy. Things would probably change if there is a terrorist strike somewhere in US, and traced back to Pakistan. For all we know, the PA & ISI raised many monsters, and some are out of control.

Am more interested in what the people leading this fight are thinking. What is their strategy. What or not constitutes success :)

When you understand that terrorism is big business, you'd be able to connect the dots easily.

[Double Edge]

The US Secretary of State included Pakistan on the list of countries that repeatedly provided support for acts of International terrorism in 1993, ofcourse, until the war on terror that started after 9/11. So Pakistan have had 22 years since then to discontinue State sponsored terrorism. What about 26/11(?), 6+ years now. However, for arguments sake, let's wait for another 6 months. 1 year is a significant amount of time, if the will is there.

I see a policy that has been followed for 30 years and now the world expects them to turn around on a dime. Stop, reverse, u-turn. How realistic is this.

You say a year, why is it not less or more. What more criteria can be used here to judge success or failure. How about the previous operations. Did they succeed. Swat etc. They pushed militants out of the area and into another. Displacing them was easier.

This operation is not about insurgency being tackled or about persistence. It's psy-ops to mask the complicity of the Army and the Islamic fundamentalists within the Army & ISI, to make the civilian government look even weaker, and attaining a greater sense of trust from the civilians in the process. If the civilian government is strong, the Army would lose its relevance and also it's 20+ billion US dollar business. It's not about Kashmir, it's not even about the kids killed in Peshawar, it's about money. Billions of it. Oh and well foreign aid. Sixty years of US aid to Pakistan: Get the data

They are going after militants who have declared war on them else they will face their own 9/11. Or as the militants would have it, come after us and we will give you one.

As for money the US has pumped around $100 billion into Afghanistan in ten years. Exceeds what they spent on the Marshall plan.

AFAIK, there are searches after bombardments. It's not like they'd bomb and guess all Jihadis have died and march to an iftar party. This is counter-productive in the sense that no high value targets are eliminated. Makes brain-washing and recruitment easy for those in command. Most of them are foot soldiers. So, there's a leak. Whether it's from within the Army & ISI, or a select few within it will be known in due time. We can just speculate right now. Some did come true as in Osama Bin Laden hiding right under the nose of the PA.

I replied that in my earlier post. Live to fight another day, and when the call comes from Rawalpindi, do their bidding.

Then their idea is reduce the number of fighters or force that can be brought to bear against the state.

That point was to show the duplicity of this so called war on terror or Zarb-e-Azab or whatever. We can leave it here. Fine by me.

The Chinese are also fair targets since lal masjid. Terror attacks are no longer restricted to Xianjiang. Kunming & Beijing were afffected. Add to this the fact that US drones have taken out more uighur militants than the PA and the presence of ISI agents (according to foreign intel) at uighur training camps.

Very subtle and to the point. :) Most wouldn't understand, you need to write a para instead of hitting with a line. The thing is ex-Generals, Politicians, CIA, contractors all have at one point or the other expressed displeasure on the WoT after their services were over. They are professionals and know better what ails Washington's foreign policy to give Pakistan such a leeway. Someone said it right, when he said - To fix Afghanistan, we need to fix Pakistan first. The days of Islamic terrorism would be over, when Washington acts on the said quote.

Tongues wag in retirement but when in power can't do anything. If Afghanistan goes the wrong way the paks will be next in line after the afghans as they're incapable of guarding their western border. Maybe this is the driving factor for this operation and its time of commencement. Thin the ranks now so you have fewer to deal with in the future.

The foreigners shout for more action or not enough is done. The PA has to decide whether the people are with them or not before each operation. Most of the time the people are uncertain because the state is incapable of protecting them. Acquittal rates for militant related crimes is 70-80%.

The ambiguity works both ways as it prevents the state from making a clear stand. The message is mixed. If you doubt the sincerity of the PA's effort i'd have to think it would be even more circumspect among Paks themselves, those that can speak freely.

Policy makers in US have to figure that out. I thought a change of government (from Bush to Obama) would do the trick, but Obama continued with the same policy. Things would probably change if there is a terrorist strike somewhere in US, and traced back to Pakistan. For all we know, the PA & ISI raised many monsters, and some are out of control.

My point is they can't afford to go against all terrorists regardless of what the world says.Not all at the same time. These militants are all linked up, they change affiliations. An attack on one is as good as an attack on all. Today its the TTP, who will it be tomorrow. When will that tipping point come when militants decide its time to collectively go against the PA. PA would want to dissuade such a development. Good vs bad terrorist is one way of delaying such an outcome. Ambiguity adds to it by keeping everybody guessing.

When you understand that terrorism is big business, you'd be able to connect the dots easily.

Your contention is terrorism is a $20 billion annual earner. That this operation amounts to a pruning of the bush not its removal as that means no more $20 billion. So long as there is a war on terrorism there will be a demand for terrorists.

How sustainable. what about those out of control outfits that go biting others including friends. Deal on a case by case basis ?

[Oracle]

I see a policy that has been followed for 30 years and now the world expects them to turn around on a dime. Stop, reverse, u-turn. How realistic is this.

You say a year, why is it not less or more. What more criteria can be used here to judge success or failure. How about the previous operations. Did they succeed. Swat etc. They pushed militants out of the area and into another. Displacing them was easier.

The world expects them to contain the disease they themselves created more so because it has now grown into an export commodity. How realistic? PA is 6.42 Lacs strong, excluding the reserves. You want me to believe they can't fight mule-riding rag-tag militants? The PA have been demanding all sorts of munitions, armaments and military aid from the US to fight the enemy. In due course of time discoveries are made of those flowing towards countering India. I gave it a year because you wanted a year in your argument. And the unwilling trust gathers every-time a glorified op starts somewhere in Pakistan. We've had so much negativity emancipating from Pakistan that any small hint of changes within Pakistan forces us to forget history and think 'Oh this time, they are serious'. Displacing terrorists is another term for allowing those to recoup & regroup to be used later as assets.

They are going after militants who have declared war on them else they will face their own 9/11. Or as the militants would have it, come after us and we will give you one.

As for money the US has pumped around $100 billion into Afghanistan in ten years. Exceeds what they spent on the Marshall plan.

Actually, it's more like militants outside the grip of the ISI. Those within are favored, well fed and protected.

You're comparing the rebuilding of Europe with aid given to Pakistan? If there is a cryptic message, then I don't get it.

Then their idea is reduce the number of fighters or force that can be brought to bear against the state.

And let the top-rung escape? Btw, how do you know (?) or how can you be so sure?

The Chinese are also fair targets since lal masjid. Terror attacks are no longer restricted to Xianjiang. Kunming & Beijing were afffected. Add to this the fact that US drones have taken out more uighur militants than the PA and the presence of ISI agents (according to foreign intel) at uighur training camps.

How's that connected with what I said?

Tongues wag in retirement but when in power can't do anything. If Afghanistan goes the wrong way the paks will be next in line after the afghans as they're incapable of guarding their western border. Maybe this is the driving factor for this operation and its time of commencement. Thin the ranks now so you have fewer to deal with in the future.

The foreigners shout for more action or not enough is done. The PA has to decide whether the people are with them or not before each operation. Most of the time the people are uncertain because the state is incapable of protecting them. Acquittal rates for militant related crimes is 70-80%.

The ambiguity works both ways as it prevents the state from making a clear stand. The message is mixed. If you doubt the sincerity of the PA's effort i'd have to think it would be even more circumspect among Paks themselves, those that can speak freely.

When in power, they respect the command. That is ethics, integrity and professionalism. And those are wise tongues, the kind of have seen it all.

Rest of the post, I kind of unwillingly agree, as I don't have a direct hotline to the PA Chief. But, we'll see in due time.

My point is they can't afford to go against all terrorists regardless of what the world says.Not all at the same time. These militants are all linked up, they change affiliations. An attack on one is as good as an attack on all. Today its the TTP, who will it be tomorrow. When will that tipping point come when militants decide its time to collectively go against the PA. PA would want to dissuade such a development. Good vs bad terrorist is one way of delaying such an outcome. Ambiguity adds to it by keeping everybody guessing.

I kind of agree, but nothing stopped the Pakistanis in getting nukes while feeding on grass. If they are really willing, they need to come out and request ground level (or whatever military term is there) US troops in Pakistan to finish off terrorism once and for all. India would be more than willing.

Your contention is terrorism is a $20 billion annual earner. That this operation amounts to a pruning of the bush not its removal as that means no more $20 billion. So long as there is a war on terrorism there will be a demand for terrorists.

How sustainable. what about those out of control outfits that go biting others including friends. Deal on a case by case basis ?

No. Read what I wrote, again. Let me make it simple for you.

PA-->Control-->Economy of Pak-->20 billion US dollars + Foreign Aid. If I'm a top General in the PA, I wouldn't let it go. Some millions would eventually land in my pocket.

Controlling the economy, anti-India chants etc to remain relevant and stronger than the Civilian government. Blackmailing the Western world that without aid they cannot control the pests they created.

Take up cosmetic ops when the pests bite them (as in the Peshawar attack), to keep them relevant in the eyes of the civilian population .

Kill foot soldiers, let the leaders escape. Continue the cycle.

[notorious_eagle]

Operations in Pakistan force militants into Afghanistan: report

Operations being conducted by Pakistan's military in North Waziristan and Khyber tribal regions have forced al Qaeda, Islamic State (IS) and Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan (IMU) to move into Afghanistan, a Wall Street Journal report quotes Afghan officials and locals as saying.

At least 400 IMU and al Qaeda-affiliated families crossed into Afghanistan last month, who now live in the homes of locals in lawless parts of the country, Afghan officials say.


Read: Kabul asked not to shelter fleeing NWA tribesmen

Haji Abdul Azizi, a tribal elder from Helmand province’s Sangin district, tell WSJ that he hosted a family of Arabic speakers for a night who claimed to be IS loyalists.

"They were six men, seven women and two children, some of whom spoke Pashto", according to Azizi, who added that the "women of the group were armed and took turns keeping watch on each other during the night".

The newcomers try to enforce their own brand of Islam which clashes with local traditions, he added.

Also read| Zarb-e-Azb operation: 120 suspected militants killed in N Waziristan

Afghan officials said that the armed outsiders, traveling with families, have settled in Ghazni, Zabul and Farah provinces. They attributed the influx of militants on the operation being conducted by Pakistan's military across the border.

Tribal elders say that the migrating militants have occupied houses, which were previously vacant, with the assistance of the local Taliban.

A senior Afghan security official said the central government is monitoring the presence of these groups, while a spokesman for international forces in Kabul said that while they had no firsthand knowledge of foreign militants’ activities in Zabul or Ghazni,

The militants who moved in Farah province, and are said to be wealthy, have rebranded themselves under the banner of the IS and have also set up training centres in the locality, Khak-e Safid district’s governor Abdul Khaliq Noorzai said.

“They haven’t fought against Taliban or government yet, but they are actively busy with training,” Gul Ahmad Azimi, a senator from Farah, told the WSJ.

The US military maintains a limited presence in Afghanistan, US and coalition officials say they have limited visibility into militant activity in the country’s hinterlands after the withdrawal of combat troops.

Operations in Pakistan force militants into Afghanistan: report - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

[Double Edge]

So the plan is displacement, rum 'em out of town, chase them in Swat & Mohmand they go to waziristan. Go after them there, where do they go ? not Baluchistan but Afghanistan. Now they are somebody else's problem.

It means the Paks now have something they want from the Afghans. How well they work it out remains to be seen.

[lemontree]

In the Video,Doval admits to be in Pakistan for 7 years.So don't you think he might be involved in the RAW origin terrorist activities in Pakistan(Complete Support to BLA and having close relation with NDS by aiding TTP though Afghanistan)

Ajit Doval is an intelligence officer and that is his job - to gain intelligence on the enemy. So we are not going to apologise for him.
Secondly, TTP is not Indian creation, so please don't attempt to give us that baby.

Besides, we are only reacting to Pak Army's efforts in J&K, whether you call it terror or aggression, it is something your nation will have to deal with as long as they continue their policy of proxy war through jihadi groups.

[lemontree]

I would also request my countrymen to stop asking Pakistani members about Hafeez Syeed, Lakhvi or Dawood. I mean why would the ISI in their right mind hand over they chaps to us. They would be a treasure trove of information that will ruin Pakistani image in front of the world.

IMO, If we have the ability, then we should eliminate them. But "begging" Pakistan to take action against them is pathetic and embarrassing.

[Double Edge]

IMO, If we have the ability, then we should eliminate them. But "begging" Pakistan to take action against them is pathetic and embarrassing.

I used to think that but now i think the MHA is doing the Pak people a favour. They must not stop demanding his conviction.

conviction rates for terrorism in pakistan are 3%. 70-80% of criminal cases are acquitted. If a militant tells you to do something you comply because the state does not have your back. KPS Gill had a mantra ' strengthen the thana' (police station), primary problem.

So long as you can hide behind a veneer of religiosity you can get away with anything.

[cirrrocco]

I would also request my countrymen to stop asking Pakistani members about Hafeez Syeed, Lakhvi or Dawood. I mean why would the ISI in their right mind hand over they chaps to us. They would be a treasure trove of information that will ruin Pakistani image in front of the world.

IMO, If we have the ability, then we should eliminate them. But "begging" Pakistan to take action against them is pathetic and embarrassing.

LT most Indians would want them to become pig feed. The reason why we bring it up is to show the paks complete cognitive dissonance when it comes to terrorism and then rub it in and laugh in their faces. It is esp satisfying to me to see them completely disregard and have officals from govtsay that these guys are not terrorists [added later, fixed ]

[Blademaster]

I would also request my countrymen to stop asking Pakistani members about Hafeez Syeed, Lakhvi or Dawood. I mean why would the ISI in their right mind hand over they chaps to us. They would be a treasure trove of information that will ruin Pakistani image in front of the world.

IMO, If we have the ability, then we should eliminate them. But "begging" Pakistan to take action against them is pathetic and embarrassing.

Exactly! I never quite understood with making the constant demands. Just request one or two times and then go ahead and whack them and show the world you mean business. As a result, the world doesn't take India or GoI's demands seriously.