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Israel launches massive search for three youths feared kidnapped in West Bank

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  • Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
    That's funny, UN Secretary General Ban-Ki Moon would beg to disagree with you....
    Wrong, why don't you ask him?

    Originally posted by bigross86 View Post


    Secretary-General, Outraged at Rockets Found in United Nations-administered School in Gaza, Directs Full Review, Swift Implementation of Security Plan

    "The Secretary-General has asked for a full review of such incidents and how the UN responds in such instances. The United Nations is taking concerted action to increase its vigilance in preventing such episodes from happening again. To this end, the Secretary-General has directed the UN Department of Safety and Security (DSS) and the UN Mine Action Service (UNMAS) to immediately develop and implement an effective security plan for the safe and secure handling of any weapons discovered in United Nations premises. Further, he has directed UNMAS to immediately deploy personnel with expertise to deal with this situation."
    In other words: Israel, don’t you dare bomb our buildings or our personnel. We’ll handle it.


    Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
    Here, let me repeat the relevant part for you, in case you missed it, or pretend to:

    By doing so, those responsible are turning schools into potential military targets, and endangering the lives of innocent children, UN employees working in such facilities, and anyone using the UN schools as shelter.

    Still don't see it?

    By doing so, those responsible are turning schools into potential military targets

    So, there's THAT argument shot out of the water....
    I see a great difference between the phrases: legitimate target (which I used) and potential target. The former means it’s morally defensible to shoot and bomb in their direction, the latter that there's a greater risk of those UN personnel being shot at or bombed, perhaps in error. I'm not surprised at your position, nor from any pro-Israel crusader. It's always black and white with you guys. It's always "either you're with us, or you're with the terrorists", or "either you support Israel, or you support Hamas".

    UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon was outraged at those rockets in the basement of that school, and rightly so. But you seem to think that meant he gave the green light for Israel to blow up any UN building, staffed by UN employees if its integrity is compromised? Sorry, that’s not the case. UN buildings staffed by UN personnel are in Gaza for humanitarian reasons, and also represent the rest of the collective world, at it's altruistic best, and they are sacrosanct. That means you don’t attack them, especially if they contain, or might contain UN personnel. So yeah, I guess UN personnel are the ultimate human shield, and I suppose for the most part, that Israel abides by this, if not overt then implied rule.

    Your fascination with the principle of zero-tolerance, in all its tyrannical, barbaric glory, isn’t morally defensible. Here’s a thought experiment for you: A Hamas operative with a handful of rockets accesses the roof of a crowded UN orphanage containing no fewer than 500 children. What would you do? I’ll tell you what Israel should do. It should sit back and accept the minimal danger to Israel those rockets represent ... and complain loudly, diplomatically, and justifiably. But maybe you’d rather pin a medal on the soldier who planted a 500lb bomb on top of that insurgent, obliterating him, and the rest of the building?
    Last edited by Goatboy; 28 Jul 14,, 19:19.

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    • Originally posted by Goatboy View Post
      In other words: Israel, don’t you dare bomb our buildings or our personnel. We’ll handle it.
      Like they can fucking do anything.


      So who do people think did the original kidnappings to intentionally draw Israel into the conflict for public relations reasons, the Iranian-affiliated groups in the Arabian Peninsula Civil War or the Saudi-affiliated groups in the Arabian Peninsula Civil War?

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      • Originally posted by rj1 View Post
        Like they can fucking do anything.


        So who do people think did the original kidnappings to intentionally draw Israel into the conflict for public relations reasons, the Iranian-affiliated groups in the Arabian Peninsula Civil War or the Saudi-affiliated groups in the Arabian Peninsula Civil War?
        Or settlers looking to spark a war, or Islamic Jihad members who need to keep Gaza militarized, or just a psycho(s)... But who ever did it, at this point is was clearly not Hamas who denied involvement, who uses a totally different style and who had everything to lose from such an act. The only person or group to gain from this war has been Bibi and the Israeli right wing.

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        • Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
          Again, know what you're talking about. Tel Aviv, as well as about 80% of the rest of Israel, is under bombardment, but thanks to the Iron Dome system, they are mostly safe. Where I live, I'm also mostly safe, but I'm running to the shelters twice a day or so, and shrapnel has fallen about 3 blocks away from my mother-in-law's house, about 10 minutes away from my house. Catches me at work too.

          The two are mutually exclusive. Just because there is protection, doesn't mean there isn't danger. You can walk around with a bulletproof vest, and most chances are that a bullet to your torso won't do too much damage. Does that mean you can walk around a battlefield with immunity?
          I don't get Netanyahu's hypocrisy (and hence your hypocrisy). You say Tel Aviv is "mostly safe", but that it's still under "bombardment". The rockets that threaten in your general vicinity are dangerous enough to force you to have to run to the shelters a few times a day -- and sometimes shrapnel falls nearby right? But the Tel Aviv airp..., I mean Ben Gurion airport is safe, like an island of tranquility in a sea of chaos? So, what do the passengers do when they're in a 747 sitting on the tarmac, loaded with jet fuel? Are they jealous at your ability to run to a shelter? See what I'm getting at? If Tel Aviv is "under bombardment" enough to warrant you to drop everything you are doing to run to a shelter, then the Tel Aviv/Ben Gurion airport is likewise under bombardment. No eat cake and have cake simultaneously for you.




          Well, considering the fact that Hamas and the PA are in a unity government, I'd say that yeah, one partner is complicit in the actions of the other. When you consider that over the weekend, Hamas called for the West Bank rise up in a third Intifada, and thousands in Ramallah, Nablus, Qalandiya and elsewhere rose up and answered the call, I'd say that yeah, they are birds of a feather.
          Unity government? What? Oh, you're talking about the situation before the latest violence ensued. And that wasn't a unity government and you know it. An eventual unity government is precisely what's needed for Palestine though. And why should that worry you? Abbas made plainly clear that in order for a unity government to be ratified by the PA, Hamas would be required to accept all the requirements that the PA already accepts, including recognizing Israel in it's 1967 borders. So your argument falls flat, as do your crocodile fears. And don't call what happened in the West Bank over the weekend a 3rd intifada. Sure they were angry. They were demonstrating, they were angry, they were chanting, some were violent, more than I'd like, some always are, Jews too, especially settlers. Regardless of whether Hamas is at fault or not, do you really expect Palestinians in Ramallah to kick back and drink sweet tea without a care in the world for the fact that over 1000 of their ethnic kin were killed? How else are they going to communicate their distaste for what's happening? Write their local "Jewish Congressman"?



          And yes, I do believe that Ben Gurion will always be under threat, which is why any Palestinian state, be it in Judea and Samaria or in Gaza, must be a demilitarized one. It's really not hard to understand, is it? Israel does not attack, unless attacked first. A demilitarized Palestinian state is the best way to maintain the peace.

          Too bad for those teeming Palestinians in the West Bank though eh? Palestinians aren't allowed to use Israeli airports. Can a Palestinian, living in the West Bank just a handful of miles from Ben Gurion use that airport? Nope too bad. Well I guess he'll just have to use the Palestinian international airport in the West Bank then right? Oh that's right I forgot, Israel doesn't allow Palestinian airports. They have to travel to Amman, Jordan to travel and go through enough Israeli internal checkpoints, international checkpoints, and red tape to make their heads swim in despair. I suppose Gazans might still be jealous though.

          And by the way, permanent, endless demilitarization of the West Bank is a non-starter. Security treaties, accompanied by some phasing out of restrictions on Palestine's security sovereignty? Ok. But in the long run, Palestine must be equal to Israel in it's status as a fully fledged state, end of story. Lets face it, Palestine will never be an existential threat to Israel, no matter what it does, and a Palestine, with a limited military, is more secure internally than one without. You want a "tough choice" for Israel to make? The acceptance of a Palestine every bit as sovereign as Israel itself is one of those choices.



          No, I think supporting YOUR version of a 2 state solution shows how incredibly dense and unaware of the realities of the situation on the ground you truly are. I firmly believe the Palestinians need a state, and I believe that Israel must make tough decisions and choices in any future agreement with the Palestinians. We've done it before, and we'll do it again, if we have to. I also KNOW, for a FACT, that there will never be a Palestinian state until the Palestinians learn to negotiate properly and in good faith. Until that happens, nothing will ever change, and the only ones at fault will be the Palestinians.
          It's way past appropriate for Israel to speak vaguely of "hard choices" it must make. Either the wording is specific, or you can thrown it all in the garbage. Trust and integrity are suspect in negotiations by Israel's current government in relation to granting Palestine a state. But Abbas has been negotiating in enough good faith to satisfy just about everyone, everyone except the current administration in Israel that is, and Netanyahu's band of crusaders, and his associated constituencies. For all his faults, Abbas, moderate to his core, is THE best chance for Israel to have peace in the West Bank. But Israel has squandered this opportunity countless times, consistently humiliating him, especially lately. I'd like to think even those in the Likud have some sense of the need for Abbas to placate his constituencies, if anything to maintain his control over his domain. But one breath of favor he breathes in the direction of Hamas and Netanyahu breathes fire, and spouts off about zero-tolerance.

          And one final point on this: Had Israel released that final batch of prisoners, per the agreement, the one backed by the United States, then this whole mess in Gaza, the 4 murdered boys, that probably wouldn't have happened. Kerry's not stupid, he knows where the blame sits for torpedoing the peace process recently, he said so as specifically as he could get away with.

          And just so we're clear on that last part: They never had a country or state to begin with. They may be deprived of A state, but it never was, and isn't THEIR state. They keep negotiating the way they've been up until now, they won't have a state of their own in the future either.....
          You know, I absolutely hate when I hear that tired excuse "the Palestine isn't real", "they don't really exist" "Jordan is Palestine". They've been loving, breathing, sleeping and existing on the land they're standing on for generations and generations. You don't have the right to deprive them of it.
          Last edited by Goatboy; 28 Jul 14,, 21:08.

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          • Originally posted by rj1 View Post
            Like they can fucking do anything.
            I don't believe in "might makes right". That the UN can't stop Israel doesn't legitimize an Israeli strike.


            So who do people think did the original kidnappings to intentionally draw Israel into the conflict for public relations reasons, the Iranian-affiliated groups in the Arabian Peninsula Civil War or the Saudi-affiliated groups in the Arabian Peninsula Civil War?
            Arabian Civil war? Anyways, I get the feeling you're taking a "either you're with us, or you support the terrorists" position.
            Last edited by Goatboy; 28 Jul 14,, 06:22.

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            • Originally posted by Goatboy View Post
              Here’s a thought experiment for you: A Hamas operative with a handful of rockets accesses the roof of a crowded UN orphanage containing no fewer than 500 children. What would you do? I’ll tell you what Israel should do. It should sit back and accept the minimal danger to Israel those rockets represent ... and complain loudly, diplomatically, and justifiably. But maybe you’d rather pin a medal on the soldier who planted a 500lb bomb on top of that insurgent, obliterating him, and the rest of the building?
              So to that end if many 'operatives' mounts roof top attacks from all Hospitals, Schools and Orphanages, you sit there and except it until your complaint is heard? Or is deliberately hiding behind innocent civilians an excepted tactic until someone, sat behind a big desk, tells them not to do it? As for medals and 500lb bombs ... look no further than Iraq and Afghanistan.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by dave lukins View Post
                So to that end if many 'operatives' mounts roof top attacks from all Hospitals, Schools and Orphanages, you sit there and except it until your complaint is heard? Or is deliberately hiding behind innocent civilians an excepted tactic until someone, sat behind a big desk, tells them not to do it? As for medals and 500lb bombs ... look no further than Iraq and Afghanistan.
                I'm not talking about some massive insurgent takeover of all UN schools and buildings and transforming them all into insurgent military bases -- these would cease being staffed by UN employees in that case anyway. But you give the UN a chance to enact security procedures, you stay patient, and basically resist the urge to fire and sit there until your complaint is heard, yeah. And your complaint will most certainly be heard.

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                • That's fine sat thousands of miles away from that front line. To see hundreds of rockets and mortars being fired at you would take more than an iron will not to retaliate. It's not the first time underhand tactics have been used and it certainly won't be the last. If you are an aggressor then you have to expect aggressive reactions and not complain when your missions don't go the way you want it to.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by dave lukins View Post
                    So to that end if many 'operatives' mounts roof top attacks from all Hospitals, Schools and Orphanages, you sit there and except it until your complaint is heard? Or is deliberately hiding behind innocent civilians an excepted tactic until someone, sat behind a big desk, tells them not to do it? As for medals and 500lb bombs ... look no further than Iraq and Afghanistan.
                    Israeli military HQ is in the middle of Tel Aviv, the use of collective punishment is in itself a form of using human shields, the IDF has a history of directly using human shields, including using kids as human shields. Lets not pretend there is a good side in this conflict when it comes to human shields.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by dave lukins View Post
                      That's fine sat thousands of miles away from that front line. To see hundreds of rockets and mortars being fired at you would take more than an iron will not to retaliate. It's not the first time underhand tactics have been used and it certainly won't be the last. If you are an aggressor then you have to expect aggressive reactions and not complain when your missions don't go the way you want it to.

                      One drawback with taking the position that I did is that the argument is easy to attack with a post like the one you wrote, since all you have to do is bring up a context that's emotionally charged, that nearly everyone, including myself, would agree with, but that isn't related to what I said. I was very specific about what can't be a legitimate military target. But you mentioned hundreds of rockets, presumably launched from the entirety of Gaza, from any structure, and also imply that that I'm suggesting Israel hold fire and do nothing against all of them, regardless of where they were launched from. I thought I was fairly clear about what I considered off-limits to Israeli air-strikes. UN buildings (shelters, orphanages, whatever) staffed by UN employees was the example I was referring to in previous posts.

                      Originally posted by dave lukins View Post
                      So to that end if many 'operatives' mounts roof top attacks from all Hospitals, Schools and Orphanages, you sit there and except it until your complaint is heard? Or is deliberately hiding behind innocent civilians an excepted tactic until someone, sat behind a big desk, tells them not to do it? As for medals and 500lb bombs ... look no further than Iraq and Afghanistan.
                      You could bring up extreme hypotheticals to support your position. I could do the same. Hard rules makes mad policy, as does the concept of zero tolerance. I might ask you to provide either a yes or a no response to "what if a high-value Hamas commander is hiding amongst 500 kindergarteners, and a handful of teachers in a large circus tent. Do you napalm the entire structure to ensure you get him"?
                      Last edited by Goatboy; 28 Jul 14,, 18:51.

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                      • Originally posted by zraver View Post
                        Israeli military HQ is in the middle of Tel Aviv, the use of collective punishment is in itself a form of using human shields, the IDF has a history of directly using human shields, including using kids as human shields. Lets not pretend there is a good side in this conflict when it comes to human shields.
                        International law also explicitly forbids directing the civilian population to shield military objectives from attack. However, in recent days Hamas issued messages on its television, radio, and social media platforms to ignore the IDF’s warnings of impending strikes and to remain in their homes therefore creating a 'human shield' for their own ends.

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                        • As a former tanker, where would you run when the column rolls in?
                          Last edited by Doktor; 28 Jul 14,, 19:55. Reason: typos
                          No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                          To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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                          • Originally posted by Goatboy View Post
                            I might ask you to provide either a yes or a no response to "what if a high-value Hamas commander is hiding amongst 500 kindergarteners, and a handful of teachers in a large circus tent. Do you napalm the entire structure to ensure you get him"?
                            Hamas? No.

                            Putin or Sharif or Modi or Xi with his finger on the button? We'll nuke the place to kingdom come.
                            Chimo

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                            • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                              Hamas? No.

                              Putin or Sharif or Modi or Xi with his finger on the button? We'll nuke the place to kingdom come.

                              And in that unlikely scenario, even the destruction of a city would justified to melt the finger about to launch an ICBM at us.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Goatboy View Post
                                And in that unlikely scenario, even the destruction of a city would justified to melt the finger about to launch an ICBM at us.
                                It was far from being unlikely for a hell of a lot of us.
                                Chimo

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