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Thread: Israel launches massive search for three youths feared kidnapped in West Bank

  1. #346
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    This is rich. Abdullah of the KSA is denouncing the rest of the world's "silence" weeks after the fact.

    Saudi King Condemns Gaza War but Not Israel - ABC News
    Last edited by Sitting Bull; 02 Aug 14, at 13:28.

  2. #347
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    Efforts by the Obama administration to reign in Netanyahu don't appear to have had an impact. Pleas to give Gazans a window to escape to safety are being ignored. Considering the fact that the U.S. provided Israel with Iron Dome and continues to give it the lion's share of foreign aid dollars you'd think Washington's public disapproval might have an impact. Isn't the one who pays the piper supposed to call the tune? Apparently not in this case.

    Obama's administration is hated by Likud ever since the 67 borders proposal and its reluctance to sign on for Bibi's Iran adventure. While Washington has done little to physically get anything done on the ground, at least they have shown they won't put Tel Aviv's interests above their own. Likud seems to be gambling that a Republican administration is going to come in someday and relations are going to be back to what they were.

  3. #348
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    Bucking a trend

    Bolivia declares Israel a terrorist state
    July 30, 2014 2:49 PM

    La Paz (AFP) - Bolivia on Wednesday renounced a visa exemption agreement with Israel in protest over its offensive in Gaza, and declared it a terrorist state.

    President Evo Morales announced the move during a talk with a group of educators in the city of Cochabamba.

    It "means, in other words, we are declaring (Israel) a terrorist state," he said.

    The treaty has allowed Israelis to travel freely to Bolivia without a visa since 1972.

    Morales said the Gaza offensive shows "that Israel is not a guarantor of the principles of respect for life and the elementary precepts of rights that govern the peaceful and harmonious coexistence of our international community."

    More than two weeks of fighting in Gaza have left 1,300 dead and 6,000 wounded amid an intense Israeli air and ground campaign in response to missile attacks by the Islamist militant group Hamas.

    In the latest development, 16 people were killed after two Israeli shells slammed into a United Nations school, drawing international protests.

    Bolivia broke off diplomatic relations with Israel in 2009 over a previous military operation in Gaza.

    In mid-July, Morales filed a request with the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights to prosecute Israel for "crimes against humanity."

  4. #349
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    I haven't had time to do more than skim this thread, so forgive me if it's brief.

    1) The kidnappers were Hamas operatives, and Israeli security forces have named them.

    2) With regards to the ceasefire on Friday, it's clear as day that Hamas are the ones that broke the ceasefire. At 9:00, one hour after the ceasefire went into effect, a Hamas suicide bomber killed himself after appearing out of an attack tunnel, killing two soldiers and leading to the kidnapping of a third soldier.

    3) Despite what Zraver might have you believe, this war is more than just about rockets, this war is also (perhaps mainly) about the terror tunnels Hamas has been digging towards Israel. And despite anything Zraver might have you believe, it's a fair assumption that Hamas is responsible for more Palestinian deaths in Gaza than Israel could ever be. Not because of their culpability according to international law, rather their misappropriation of funds, either going into their personal pockets, or using aid money and UNRWA equipment to dig these tunnels. It's safe to assume that not all of the tunnels have been revealed yet, but "With the amount of cement Hamas used to build these tunnels , they could have built 2 hospitals, 20 clinics, 20 schools and 100 kindergartens" - GOC Southern Command Maj. Gen Sammy Turgeman, July 31, 2014, Ynet News
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    Nope, I side with the author. Hamas has always and will always be too deceitful to ever say anything truthful other than they want to kill Israelis. Not to mention that Fatah and Hamas are but too corrupt, as most are in the Middle East, to care about their people except as cannon fodder or shields. The PA are only marginally better since they don't use people as cannon fodder.
    So you think Israel should engage in the wholesale slaughter of the regions indigenous people? Revive a practice that was last used by the West in the Belgian Congo... Palestine has been occupied since 1967. There was peace until 1988 when the First Intifada erupted because Israel would neither end the occupation, nor formally annex the territories in order to leave the Palestinians stateless and voiceless. Reports and legal opinions abound that the occupation by blockade of Gaza and physical occupation of the West bank is illegal under international law and in many cases amounts to unjust and illegal collective punishment.

    Also what is the functional difference between a suicide bomber in a crowded market place and a 500lb dropped in a crowded market place? The US rightfully condemns the first, but we should likewise condemn the second. Israel's target selection over the past couple of weeks looks a lot less like it is aimed at achieving legit military objectives, and more like it is part of a terror campaign. Why are settlers attacks called price tag attacks, but Palestinian resistance called terrorism? Its a double standard that is used to allow Israel to do what ever she wants in violation of law and treaty.

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    This one's for Zraver in particular, but also for anyone that for some reason feels the need to explain why Hamas acts the way it does. Zraver's contention that "Hamas is a terror group, I expect Hamas to act like a terror group" really doesn't cut it, and if you think it does, there is something terribly, truly, incredibly and horribly wrong with you.

    Excusing terrorist actions because the person committing the actions is a terrorist or belongs to a terrorist group is just being plain fucking stupid. Like we know, Zraver is not stupid, so one has to wonder, what exactly is the intention behind Zraver's words? And I'm sorry to the staff, but while that doesn't make him a Hamas sympathizer, it sure as shit makes him a Hamas apologist. I'm not looking to ban him, even his opinion is valid, but let's call a spade a spade.

    Review of Hamas violations of international law

    1. Hamas‘ rocket attacks directed at Israel‘s civilian population centers deliberately violates the basic principles of distinction. (Additional Protocol I, arts. 48, 51(2), 52(1).) Any doubt about this is resolved by the fact that Hamas itself has boasted of its intention to hit population centres. It is well accepted in customary international law that ―[I]ntentionally directing attacks against the civilian population as such or against individual civilians not taking part in hostilities constitutes a war crime. (Rome Statute, art. 8(2)(b)(i))

    2. Staging of Attacks From Residential Areas and Protected Sites: The Law of Armed Conflict not only prohibits targeting an enemy‘s civilians; it also requires parties to an armed conflict to distinguish their combatant forces from their own civilians, and not to base operations in or near civilian structures, especially protected sites such as schools, medical facilities and places of worship. As the customary law principle is reflected in Article 51(7) of Additional Protocol I: '―The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or shield, favour or impede military operations."

    3. Use of Civilian Homes and Public Institutions as Bases of Operation - see (2) for citations.

    4. Misuse of Medical Facilities and Ambulances - Any time Hamas uses an ambulance to transport its fighters it is violating the Law of Armed Conflict: Under Article 23(f) of the 1907 Regulations annexed to the Hague Convention IV Respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land, which reflects customary international law, it is ―especially forbidden…[t]o make improper use of a flag of truce, … as well as the distinctive badges of the Geneva Convention.. Article 44 of the First Geneva Convention for the Amelioration of the Condition of the Wounded and Sick in Armed Forces in the Field (1949) also provides that: ―… the emblem of the Red Cross on a white ground …may not be employed, either in time of peace or in time of war, except to indicate or to protect the medical units and establishments…‖

    5. Booby-trapping of Civilian Areas - see (2) for citations.

    6. Blending in with Civilians and Use of Human Shields - As the ICRC rule states, "It can be concluded that the use of human shields requires an intentional co-location of military objectives and civilians or persons hors de combat with the specific intent of trying to prevent the targeting of those military objectives."

    7. Exploitation of Children - Hamas has paramilitary summer camps for kids. There are reports, from this war and previous ones, of children fighting and being used for tunnel digging. violates the Law of Armed Conflict, including prohibitions against allowing children to take part in hostilities. As customary international law is reflected in this regard in Additional Protocol I, the parties to a conflict must take "all feasible measures" to ensure that children "do not take a direct part in hostilities and, in particular, they shall refrain from recruiting them into their armed forces." (Additional Protocol I, art. 77(2))

    8. Interference with Humanitarian Relief Efforts - While Israel kept its end of humanitarian truces. Hamas used them to shoot rockets into Israel, including the Kerem Shalom crossing where humanitarian goods are brought into Gaza. All of these actions violate the Law of Armed Conflict, which requires parties to allow the entry of humanitarian supplies and to guarantee their safety. Article 59 of the Fourth Geneva Convention requires parties in an armed conflict to "permit the free passage of [humanitarian] consignments and shall guarantee their protection." Article 60 of the same Convention protects the shipments from being diverted from their intended purpose, something Hamas has certainly done in the past and is reported to have done in this conflict as well.

    9. Hostage-taking - The Fourth Geneva Conventions, article 34, says flatly "The taking of hostages is prohibited." This is not an "arrest" as Israel-haters claim, and this is not a prisoner of war situation as Hamas has made clear - the purpose of Hamas' hostage-taking falls under the definition on the International Convention Against the Taking of Hostages: "Any person who seizes or detains and threatens to kill, to injure or to continue to detain another person (hereinafter referred to as the "hostage") in order to compel a third party, namely, a State, an international intergovernmental organization, a natural or juridical person, or a group of persons, to do or abstain from doing any act as an explicit or implicit condition for the release of the hostage commits the offence of taking of hostages ("hostage-taking") within the meaning of this Convention."
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  7. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigross86 View Post
    This one's for Zraver in particular, but also for anyone that for some reason feels the need to explain why Hamas acts the way it does. Zraver's contention that "Hamas is a terror group, I expect Hamas to act like a terror group" really doesn't cut it, and if you think it does, there is something terribly, truly, incredibly and horribly wrong with you.

    Excusing terrorist actions because the person committing the actions is a terrorist or belongs to a terrorist group is just being plain fucking stupid. Like we know, Zraver is not stupid, so one has to wonder, what exactly is the intention behind Zraver's words? And I'm sorry to the staff, but while that doesn't make him a Hamas sympathizer, it sure as shit makes him a Hamas apologist. I'm not looking to ban him, even his opinion is valid, but let's call a spade a spade.
    As usual... If you couldn't twist words you have no words at all. Expecting a terror group to act like a terror group is not excusing their actions. I've never called for terrorist to be let off the hook. But I do expect them to engage in actions that a state actor should not, sadly, Israel as a state actor does. I also draw a distnction between legitmate acts of resistence and terror. Something you yourself have alluded to in the past.

    Review of Hamas violations of international law

    1. Hamas‘ rocket attacks directed at Israel‘s civilian population centers deliberately violates the basic principles of distinction. (Additional Protocol I, arts. 48, 51(2), 52(1).) Any doubt about this is resolved by the fact that Hamas itself has boasted of its intention to hit population centres. It is well accepted in customary international law that ―[I]ntentionally directing attacks against the civilian population as such or against individual civilians not taking part in hostilities constitutes a war crime. (Rome Statute, art. 8(2)(b)(i))
    Vs 34 attacks on medical and protected sites in 30 days plus the complete leveling of multiple neighborhoods, often where no militants were located but as part of Israel's terror campaign and border clearing operations to create a 3km dead zone around the Gaza Israel border. The strike on the strips only power plant leaving the area without running water or sanitation services... Israeli sniper fire on obviously unarmed civilians looking for relatives in the rubble...

    2. Staging of Attacks From Residential Areas and Protected Sites: The Law of Armed Conflict not only prohibits targeting an enemy‘s civilians; it also requires parties to an armed conflict to distinguish their combatant forces from their own civilians, and not to base operations in or near civilian structures, especially protected sites such as schools, medical facilities and places of worship. As the customary law principle is reflected in Article 51(7) of Additional Protocol I: '―The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or shield, favour or impede military operations."
    What non residential areas are there in Gaza? its not like Israel has left Hamas much depth to get away from civilians. Not only that, but the IDF has taken up positions in residential areas even when they did not have to fight to occupy them. hell, Israel even bragged they told people to leave enamsse before attacking or seizing whole neighborhoods.

    3. Use of Civilian Homes and Public Institutions as Bases of Operation - see (2) for citations.
    vs armed settlements... really? So its Ok for Israel to base IDF soldiers with settlers, but not OK for the Palestinians.

    4. Misuse of Medical Facilities and Ambulances - Any time Hamas uses an ambulance to transport its fighters it is violating the Law of Armed Conflict: Under Article 23(f) of the 1907 Regulations annexed to the Hague Convention IV Respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land, which reflects customary international law, it is ―especially forbidden…[t]o make improper use of a flag of truce, … as well as the distinctive badges of the Geneva Convention.. Article 44 of the First Geneva Convention for the Amelioration of the Condition of the Wounded and Sick in Armed Forces in the Field (1949) also provides that: ―… the emblem of the Red Cross on a white ground …may not be employed, either in time of peace or in time of war, except to indicate or to protect the medical units and establishments…‖
    Often alleged, not proven. However, would you like to see the video of Israel attacking a market, and then doing a secondary attack to kill the clearly marked first responders? Not troops transports just plain old ambulances going where ambulances were expected to be going. There is a massive list of such attacks on responders in the current war. You can clearly hear the sound of the targeting drone and the incoming shell fire.

    5. Booby-trapping of Civilian Areas - see (2) for citations.
    I get it, you want Hamas to come out and fight like men. I'm sure they would if you'd unass your tank and fight them like a man. The disparity n force forced on them by Israel limits their ability to fight back. BTW, when did Israel sign the convention against landmines? Oh wait she hasn't, she still uses booby traps to.... So until you want to fight on equal terms, cut the resistance (those fighting the IDF inside Gaza) some slack.

    6. Blending in with Civilians and Use of Human Shields - As the ICRC rule states, "It can be concluded that the use of human shields requires an intentional co-location of military objectives and civilians or persons hors de combat with the specific intent of trying to prevent the targeting of those military objectives."
    This again, should I pull up the pictures of IDF troops using Palestinian kids as human shields?

    7. Exploitation of Children - Hamas has paramilitary summer camps for kids. There are reports, from this war and previous ones, of children fighting and being used for tunnel digging. violates the Law of Armed Conflict, including prohibitions against allowing children to take part in hostilities. As customary international law is reflected in this regard in Additional Protocol I, the parties to a conflict must take "all feasible measures" to ensure that children "do not take a direct part in hostilities and, in particular, they shall refrain from recruiting them into their armed forces." (Additional Protocol I, art. 77(2))
    The IDF has made Palestinian children act as walking bomb detectors using them to clear rooms.

    8. Interference with Humanitarian Relief Efforts - While Israel kept its end of humanitarian truces. Hamas used them to shoot rockets into Israel, including the Kerem Shalom crossing where humanitarian goods are brought into Gaza. All of these actions violate the Law of Armed Conflict, which requires parties to allow the entry of humanitarian supplies and to guarantee their safety. Article 59 of the Fourth Geneva Convention requires parties in an armed conflict to "permit the free passage of [humanitarian] consignments and shall guarantee their protection." Article 60 of the same Convention protects the shipments from being diverted from their intended purpose, something Hamas has certainly done in the past and is reported to have done in this conflict as well.
    Israel did not keep its end of the truce (the most recent). Tweets (which are time stamped by twitter) by the Qassam Brigade indicate the Israeli trooper was captured in Rafah 90 minutes before the cease fire, not 90 minutes after. Israel ignored the truce even going into effect. No one yet knows how many Palestinians have died in Rafah since, likely hundreds. The few pics coming out show a scene of complete and total destruction.

    9. Hostage-taking - The Fourth Geneva Conventions, article 34, says flatly "The taking of hostages is prohibited." This is not an "arrest" as Israel-haters claim, and this is not a prisoner of war situation as Hamas has made clear - the purpose of Hamas' hostage-taking falls under the definition on the International Convention Against the Taking of Hostages: "Any person who seizes or detains and threatens to kill, to injure or to continue to detain another person (hereinafter referred to as the "hostage") in order to compel a third party, namely, a State, an international intergovernmental organization, a natural or juridical person, or a group of persons, to do or abstain from doing any act as an explicit or implicit condition for the release of the hostage commits the offence of taking of hostages ("hostage-taking") within the meaning of this Convention."
    What do you call the summary arrest without charge, and with no hope of trial of the 500-800 Palestinians in the West bank in June or the over 1000 Palestinians who had already been in extrajudical administrative detention before that?

    But since you brought up the Geneva Conventions, lets talk about the rights of indigenous peoples to resist, the ban on collective punishment, the ban on summary arrests, the ban on exiling and the illegal transfer of population.

    Ben, all you've done is shown how the very things you rail against are part and parcel of Israeli operations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigross86 View Post
    Excusing terrorist actions because the person committing the actions is a terrorist or belongs to a terrorist group is just being plain fucking stupid.
    Excusing? I don't see any excusing. What I am seeing is your attempt to go down to their level. You want to act with the same free hand that Hamas has.
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    Wow, this thread is almost 24 pages long and all this over the death of less than 2,000 people. Where were the bleeding hearts when there were more bloody conflicts like the SriLankan government targetting civilians during the 2009 war. In that conflict, almost 25,000 people were killed in the final week of fighting. There was absolutely no debate in this forum and it was only the Tamil members who were crying out.

    This thread is only about good old Jew baiting.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by 667medic View Post
    Wow, this thread is almost 24 pages long and all this over the death of less than 2,000 people. Where were the bleeding hearts when there were more bloody conflicts like the SriLankan government targetting civilians during the 2009 war. In that conflict, almost 25,000 people were killed in the final week of fighting. There was absolutely no debate in this forum and it was only the Tamil members who were crying out.

    This thread is only about good old Jew baiting.....
    Tired.... you should try something else. This issue matters to people in the the US at least because the US is funding the war.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Excusing? I don't see any excusing. What I am seeing is your attempt to go down to their level. You want to act with the same free hand that Hamas has.
    Yes, Hamas is designated as a terrorist organization by almost every country in the world. It is sanctioned, isolated and blockaded, a pariah in the world community. So perhaps there is a resignation to each specific new atrocity, you dont expect them to act any better.

    If Israel were a pariah and similarly isolated and facing the same penalties as Hamas then maybe it too would get the same 'pass' that some Israeli's think Hamas gets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InExile View Post
    Yes, Hamas is designated as a terrorist organization by almost every country in the world. It is sanctioned, isolated and blockaded, a pariah in the world community. So perhaps there is a resignation to each specific new atrocity, you dont expect them to act any better.

    If Israel were a pariah and similarly isolated and facing the same penalties as Hamas then maybe it too would get the same 'pass' that some Israeli's think Hamas gets.
    Many of us think that Israel already acts like a terror group and should she should be as equally isolated as Hamas is. Certainly if not for the power of the US veto she would be. Though given the increasing disgust with Israel's actions towards civilians and the peace processes, unified American support is no longer assured and may be coming to an end unless Israel gets serious about peace and fishes or cuts bait.

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    Israeli think tank now openly calling for ethnic cleansing of Gaza on JPost. Of course shoving them all to some where else will give Israel the Gazan gas fields too.

    Into the fray: Why Gaza must go | JPost | Israel News

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    A pox on both their houses. All im seeing is a terrorist group fighting another terrorist group with civilians stuck in the middle.

    If the Israeli state wants to behave in this way then they can do it on their own dollar and accept the international condemnation that comes with it. You want to do it on the $USD then you start behaving like a civilized state.

    The USA needs to stop any and all monetary and military support of Israel, refuse the sale of any parts, equipment, munitions and service for any existing kit and place a complete economic embargo on Israel. They want a be able to get away with the same stuff hamas does then the world should treat them as equals.

    If Aipac wants to talk let them find the door closed, if they try to operate in a way that even smells like its outside of US law have them arrested. The world is sick of this shit.
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    The USA needs to stop any and all monetary and military support of Israel, refuse the sale of any parts, equipment, munitions and service for any existing kit and place a complete economic embargo on Israel. They want a be able to get away with the same stuff hamas does then the world should treat them as equals.
    Sadly it will never happen. Political system is far too corrupt to even make them foot the bill for their shit. South Africa and Rhodesia never had it this good.
    To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

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