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Thread: Israel launches massive search for three youths feared kidnapped in West Bank

  1. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigross86 View Post
    First things first: the only reason that rocket landed in Yehud was because Iron Dome determined it was not a threat to the airport, or else it would have been intercepted and shot down. Not your blithe interpretation of "Just a couple of pieces of rocket shrapnel, no biggie". Honestly, I don't mind having a debate with you on the subject, but please, know what you're talking about before you start spewing nonsense. It's not too much to ask, is it?
    Where that rocket landed wasn't the issue. Where another one might land was. And yes, the FAA resumed flights, after a full court press by Netanyahu. But frankly it was the right move too, not much danger to Ben Gurion. And since this was the case, I guess I'll ignore those screaming that next door Tel Aviv is under full-scale bombardment. Hyperbole and hypocrisy are walking down the aisle....


    By the way, I owe Hamas a debt of gratitude for showing you how idiotic your solution to the conflict is. If all it takes to cut flights between Israel and the USA and EU is one impact 1 mile from Ben Gurion, Hamas have proven there should never be a Palestinian state a couple of miles from our airport.
    You have expressed precisely the position that it doesn't matter how cuddly and complicit the Palestinians in the West Bank are, you're still going to hold all of them responsible for the actions of a government they don't control, from a territory they don't border. And I don't believe for a second that you think merely "a couple miles" from Ben Gurion airport is enough of a separation. Face it, the security of Ben Gurion will always be compromised in your eyes. The West Bank is just too close. Teeming masses of hostiles are just across the border.


    You and Zraver, who are oh so fond of the two-state solution...
    You act like supporting the 2 state solution amounts to some sort of character defect on our parts. And the moderate sarcastic taunt in your words alludes to what you in fact endorse: the vast majority of the population of the West Bank deprived of their country, of their freedom.

  2. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigross86 View Post
    Dear Hamas, can you please stop operating out of UNRWA schools, hospitals and other UN locations, making them valid military targets, while surrounding yourselves with human shields?
    A UN compound in Gaza, staffed by UN employees, is not a valid military target under any circumstances, end of story. I don't care if they found 20 rockets in the basement or not. Israel certainly has the right to complain, and to demand the UN police its compound, but that's it.
    Last edited by Goatboy; 25 Jul 14, at 20:24.

  3. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batista View Post
    Sorry but what are your views about the 3 young boys killed by suspected Hamas and buried in a shallow grave? As a fact this incident sparked this war where so many children/women have been killed.

    2014 kidnapping and murder of Israeli teenagers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Attachment 37512

    that is why i sad "ANY" bold & underlined...
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigross86 View Post
    Dear Hamas, can you please stop operating out of UNRWA schools, hospitals and other UN locations, making them valid military targets, while surrounding yourselves with human shields?
    First, UNRWA denies that Hamas wa sin the targeted schools. There have been 2 incidents of Hamas using unused buildings as storage, not over flowing schools and hospitals. Sorry, they are not valid military targets for indiscriminate artillery and bomb attacks. The expected military gain does not exceed the civilian damage and so violates the principle of proportional response. Especially given that Israel has refused to let the location evacuate international observers and civilians


    If the UNRWA reports of Hamas storing rockets in UNRWA schools aren't enough, would you also like video of Hamas operating out of hospitals, or placing rocket launch pads right outside schools and hospitals? I'm more than happy to provide you with them.
    To Israel, right out side can be up to 600m away based on past attacks on UN locations. You seem to be forgetting that the IDF seemingly has a fetish for attacking the UN.

    Here's an idea, instead of attacking the IDF for fighting a war against terror, why don't you attack the terrorist organization which repeatedly, willfully and knowingly wipes its ass with the Geneva Convention, and has stolen over $1 BILLION in aid meant for the Palestinian people and instead redesignated those same funds towards a massive complex of terror tunnels into Israel, which could not even be considered defensive by any leftist liberal stretch of the word?
    Is Hamas a signatory to treaties governing the conduct of its armed forces? Is Hamas holding 1.8 million people in a state of siege, is Hamas illegally occupying the West Bank in violation of treaties she is party to? Hamas is a terror group, I expect Hamas to act like a terror group. Funny how the US didn't have to bomb hospitals and schools to defeat Al Queda in Iraq, or engage in a decades long occupation, or move in hundreds of thousands of colonists... Ditto for the Taliban. Even in locations were the occupation did last for decades like Germany and Japan we didn't move in the colonist and grind the local people into the dirt. Israel is supposedly a civilized nation, I wish she would like act like one.

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    It Turns Out Hamas Didn’t Kidnap and Kill the 3 Israeli Teens After All [Updated]

    When the bodies of three Israeli teenagers, kidnapped in the West Bank, were found late last month, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu did not mince words. "Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay," he said, initiating a campaign that eventually escalated into the present conflict in the region.

    But now, officials admit the kidnappings were not Hamas's handiwork after all.

    BuzzFeed reporter Sheera Frenkel was among the first to suggest that it was unlikely that Hamas was behind the deaths of Gilad Shaar, Naftali Frenkel, and Eyal Yifrach. Citing Palestinian sources and experts the field, Frenkel reported that kidnapping three Israeli teens would be a foolish move for Hamas. International experts told her it was likely the work of a local group, acting without concern for the repercussions:

    [Gershon Baskin] pointed out that Hamas has earlier this month signed an agreement to form a unity government with Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas, bridging, for the first time in seven years, the Palestinian leadership in the West Bank and Gaza.

    “They will lose their reconciliation agreement with Abbas if they do take responsibility for [the kidnappings],” Baskin added.

    Today, she was proven right:

    Repeated inconsistencies in Israeli descriptions of the situation have sparked debate over whether Israel wanted to provoke Hamas into a confrontation. Israeli intelligence is also said to have known that the boys were dead shortly after they disappeared, but to have maintained public optimism about their safe return to beef up support from the Jewish diaspora. Writing for Al Jazeera, Musa al-Gharbi argued that Israel was deliberately provoking Hamas:

    All the illegal and immoral actions related to Operation Brother’s Keeper were justified under the premise of finding and saving the missing teens whom the Israeli government knew to be dead — cynically exploiting the tragedy to whip up public outcry in order to provoke and then confront Hamas. This pattern of deception continues under the ongoing military offensive in Gaza. For example, last week in collaboration with Egyptian President Abdel Fattah El Sisi and Abbas, in its efforts to alienate Hamas, Israel announced a bad-faith cease-fire proposal, which Hamas was not consulted on and never agreed to but whose violation supposedly justified Israel’s expansion and intensification of the military campaign into Gaza.

    Despite continued negotiations, the violence shows no signs of letting up, and after Thursday night's massive protests in the West Bank, there is still no ceasefire agreement. On Friday, it became clear that U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry's attempts to broker a seven-day truce were rejected by Israeli officials. Instead, Israel will apparently widen its ground operation in the Gaza Strip, despite international outcry about the civilian death toll. According to unnamed officials, the proposed truce was too generous to Hamas's demands.

    Hamas, meanwhile, still hasn't weighed in on the agreement, whose details are being kept secret, but continued to launch rockets into Israel. International peace talks are set to resume in France this weekend, and we're keeping our fingers crossed.

    Updated, Sat. 11:44 a.m.: This claim was also reported by BBC's Jon Donnison, who spoked to Israel Police Foreign Press Spokesman Micky Rosenfeld:

    Hamas Didn?t Kidnap the Israeli Teens After All -- NYMag

    I am wondering how accurate is this news?

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    Air raid sirens sounded in southern and central Israel this morning as militants in Gaza fired a salvo of rockets across the border.
    In a statement the Israeli military said: "Following Hamas' incessant rocket fire throughout the humanitarian window, which was agreed upon for the welfare of the civilian population in Gaza, the (army) will now resume its aerial, naval and ground activity in the Gaza Strip."
    Residents in Gaza reported hearing heavy shelling east of Gaza City shortly after the announcement.
    The Israeli army this morning said a soldier had been killed yesterday by a shell fired from Gaza, taking to 43 the number of Israeli troops to die in combat. Three civilians have also been killed by rocket fire into Israel.
    Israel had extended a ceasefire until midnight (10pm UK time) on Sunday at the UN's request, but said it would retaliate if attacked.
    Hamas had immediately rejected the truce.
    "No humanitarian ceasefire is valid without Israeli tanks withdrawing from the Gaza Strip and without residents being able to return to their homes and ambulances carrying bodies being able to freely move around in Gaza," spokesman Fawzi Barhum said.
    Some 132 bodies were reportedly pulled from the rubble in Gaza during the lull , while the pause allowed Palestinians to stock up on supplies.
    More than 1,000 Palestinians have died since Israel launched a military operation more than two weeks ago.
    Late Saturday the Ezzedine al-Qassam Brigades, the military wing of Hamas, claimed responsibility for rocket attacks on Israel immediately after the expiration the initial 12-hour ceasefire.
    The resumption of rocket fire led police to clear a protest in Tel Aviv, where thousands of Israelis were demonstrating against their government's military operation.
    Anti-war protests also took place in London, Paris, Frankfurt and other cities.
    Meanwhile, world leaders continue their attempt to thrash out a wider ceasefire in Paris.
    On Friday Israel rejected a seven-day ceasefire backed by US Secretary of State John Kerry.
    A top Pentagon intelligence official has warned that the destruction of Hamas would only lead to something more dangerous taking its place, as he offered a grim portrait of a period of enduring regional conflict.
    The remarks by Lieutenant General Michael Flynn, the outgoing head of the Defence Intelligence Agency, came as Israeli ministers signalled that a comprehensive deal to end the 20-day-old conflict in the Gaza Strip appeared remote.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatboy View Post
    Where that rocket landed wasn't the issue. Where another one might land was. And yes, the FAA resumed flights, after a full court press by Netanyahu. But frankly it was the right move too, not much danger to Ben Gurion. And since this was the case, I guess I'll ignore those screaming that next door Tel Aviv is under full-scale bombardment. Hyperbole and hypocrisy are walking down the aisle....
    Again, know what you're talking about. Tel Aviv, as well as about 80% of the rest of Israel, is under bombardment, but thanks to the Iron Dome system, they are mostly safe. Where I live, I'm also mostly safe, but I'm running to the shelters twice a day or so, and shrapnel has fallen about 3 blocks away from my mother-in-law's house, about 10 minutes away from my house. Catches me at work too.

    The two are mutually exclusive. Just because there is protection, doesn't mean there isn't danger. You can walk around with a bulletproof vest, and most chances are that a bullet to your torso won't do too much damage. Does that mean you can walk around a battlefield with immunity?


    You have expressed precisely the position that it doesn't matter how cuddly and complicit the Palestinians in the West Bank are, you're still going to hold all of them responsible for the actions of a government they don't control, from a territory they don't border. And I don't believe for a second that you think merely "a couple miles" from Ben Gurion airport is enough of a separation. Face it, the security of Ben Gurion will always be compromised in your eyes. The West Bank is just too close. Teeming masses of hostiles are just across the border.

    Well, considering the fact that Hamas and the PA are in a unity government, I'd say that yeah, one partner is complicit in the actions of the other. When you consider that over the weekend, Hamas called for the West Bank rise up in a third Intifada, and thousands in Ramallah, Nablus, Qalandiya and elsewhere rose up and answered the call, I'd say that yeah, they are birds of a feather.



    And yes, I do believe that Ben Gurion will always be under threat, which is why any Palestinian state, be it in Judea and Samaria or in Gaza, must be a demilitarized one. It's really not hard to understand, is it? Israel does not attack, unless attacked first. A demilitarized Palestinian state is the best way to maintain the peace.

    You act like supporting the 2 state solution amounts to some sort of character defect on our parts. And the moderate sarcastic taunt in your words alludes to what you in fact endorse: the vast majority of the population of the West Bank deprived of their country, of their freedom.
    No, I think supporting YOUR version of a 2 state solution shows how incredibly dense and unaware of the realities of the situation on the ground you truly are. I firmly believe the Palestinians need a state, and I believe that Israel must make tough decisions and choices in any future agreement with the Palestinians. We've done it before, and we'll do it again, if we have to. I also KNOW, for a FACT, that there will never be a Palestinian state until the Palestinians learn to negotiate properly and in good faith. Until that happens, nothing will ever change, and the only ones at fault will be the Palestinians.

    And just so we're clear on that last part: They never had a country or state to begin with. They may be deprived of A state, but it never was, and isn't THEIR state. They keep negotiating the way they've been up until now, they won't have a state of their own in the future either.....
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  8. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatboy View Post
    A UN compound in Gaza, staffed by UN employees, is not a valid military target under any circumstances, end of story. I don't care if they found 20 rockets in the basement or not. Israel certainly has the right to complain, and to demand the UN police its compound, but that's it.
    That's funny, UN Secretary General Ban-Ki Moon would beg to disagree with you....

    Secretary-General, Outraged at Rockets Found in United Nations-administered School in Gaza, Directs Full Review, Swift Implementation of Security Plan

    The following statement was issued today by the Spokesman for UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon:

    The Secretary-General is alarmed to hear that rockets were placed in an UNRWA (United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East) school in Gaza and that subsequently these have gone missing. He expresses his outrage, and regret, at the placing of weapons in a UN-administered school. By doing so, those responsible are turning schools into potential military targets, and endangering the lives of innocent children, UN employees working in such facilities, and anyone using the UN schools as shelter.

    The Secretary-General notes that this is inconsistent with UN Security Council resolution 1860 (2009), which calls for the prevention of arms smuggling. He demands that militant groups, who are responsible, must stop such actions and should be held accountable for endangering the lives of civilians in this manner.

    The Secretary-General has asked for a full review of such incidents and how the UN responds in such instances. The United Nations is taking concerted action to increase its vigilance in preventing such episodes from happening again. To this end, the Secretary-General has directed the UN Department of Safety and Security (DSS) and the UN Mine Action Service (UNMAS) to immediately develop and implement an effective security plan for the safe and secure handling of any weapons discovered in United Nations premises. Further, he has directed UNMAS to immediately deploy personnel with expertise to deal with this situation.

    The Secretary-General calls on all of those who have any influence over militant groups to send an unmistakable message that this is unacceptable.

    Finally, the Secretary-General expresses his full support for the tremendous work of the staff of UNRWA, who continue to operate under deeply challenging circumstances.
    Here, let me repeat the relevant part for you, in case you missed it, or pretend to:

    By doing so, those responsible are turning schools into potential military targets, and endangering the lives of innocent children, UN employees working in such facilities, and anyone using the UN schools as shelter.

    Still don't see it?

    By doing so, those responsible are turning schools into potential military targets

    So, there's THAT argument shot out of the water....
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  9. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    First, UNRWA denies that Hamas wa sin the targeted schools. There have been 2 incidents of Hamas using unused buildings as storage, not over flowing schools and hospitals. Sorry, they are not valid military targets for indiscriminate artillery and bomb attacks. The expected military gain does not exceed the civilian damage and so violates the principle of proportional response. Especially given that Israel has refused to let the location evacuate international observers and civilians
    Let's take this slowly:

    First, UNRWA denies that Hamas wa sin the targeted schools.
    From Ha'aretz:

    "An IDF source said that army representatives made contact with UNRWA and the Red Cross over the past few days to inform them that troops were shot at from near the school, and that the IDF would return fire toward the source of the shooting, which was located near the school."

    There are also more than one report of the possibility that the UNRWA school was hit by a Hamas rocket. Since Protective Edge has begun, over 100 Hamas rockets have landed back in Gaza. Famously, during Pillar of Defense, a Hamas rocket fell on Gaza during a ceasefire and killed a baby, which was then promptly blamed on Israel, despite all the facts to the contrary.

    There have been 2 incidents of Hamas using unused buildings as storage, not over flowing schools and hospitals.
    Let me see if I actually understood what you just said: School is out for summer, so we can just use UN facilities as weapons storage depots?! Do you seriously read what you type before you hit send?

    As for they being valid military targets, Ban Ki-Moon would beg to disagree with you. Just read the above reply. Or hell, I'll post it here for you as well, so you can't pretend you didn't see it either:

    "The following statement was issued today by the Spokesman for UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon:

    The Secretary-General is alarmed to hear that rockets were placed in an UNRWA (United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East) school in Gaza and that subsequently these have gone missing. He expresses his outrage, and regret, at the placing of weapons in a UN-administered school. By doing so, those responsible are turning schools into potential military targets, and endangering the lives of innocent children, UN employees working in such facilities, and anyone using the UN schools as shelter.

    The Secretary-General notes that this is inconsistent with UN Security Council resolution 1860 (2009), which calls for the prevention of arms smuggling. He demands that militant groups, who are responsible, must stop such actions and should be held accountable for endangering the lives of civilians in this manner.

    The Secretary-General has asked for a full review of such incidents and how the UN responds in such instances. The United Nations is taking concerted action to increase its vigilance in preventing such episodes from happening again. To this end, the Secretary-General has directed the UN Department of Safety and Security (DSS) and the UN Mine Action Service (UNMAS) to immediately develop and implement an effective security plan for the safe and secure handling of any weapons discovered in United Nations premises. Further, he has directed UNMAS to immediately deploy personnel with expertise to deal with this situation.

    The Secretary-General calls on all of those who have any influence over militant groups to send an unmistakable message that this is unacceptable.

    Finally, the Secretary-General expresses his full support for the tremendous work of the staff of UNRWA, who continue to operate under deeply challenging circumstances."

    Sorry, they are not valid military targets for indiscriminate artillery and bomb attacks.
    I'm sorry, you seem to be confused here, on several issues. The first is more a question of linguistics: Are they targets, or are the artillery and bomb attacks indiscriminate. I mean, I know Gaza is small, but it would be really hard to indiscriminately bomb and somehow, manage to hit the targets we're aiming for.

    The other issue you seem to be confused on is who exactly is being indiscriminate. Hamas are the ones lobbing rockets at cities and population centers, a self-admitted war crime by the Palestinian envoy to the UNHRC. Israel are the one who have attacked approximately 4,000 military targets, with approximately 1,000 Palestinian dead. Now, obviously, every single civilian death is a tragedy, but honestly, don't you think that if we were indiscriminately bombing, there would be a lot more than just 1 dead per every 4 attacks?

    Add the fact that out of those 1,000 dead, many of those are duplicates (as I've shown above), and according to the Palestinians' own guidelines, every single person killed in Gaza is an innocent civilian, even though the IDF has stated with confidence that they've killed over 500 Hamas combatants.

    The expected military gain does not exceed the civilian damage and so violates the principle of proportional response. Especially given that Israel has refused to let the location evacuate international observers and civilians
    Oh, so now you're an expert on international law and the LOAC, and you can determine, beyond a shadow of a doubt, from your living room, what the military gain from attacking a certain target will be, and whether it's proportionate or not?! Gimme a break. Let me remind you that the IDF is the side in this conflict that DOES call off attacks which might lead to civilian casualties. Like I said, I've got the videos to prove it. This post is long enough without them, but give the word, I'll give you plenty of examples.

    To Israel, right out side can be up to 600m away based on past attacks on UN locations. You seem to be forgetting that the IDF seemingly has a fetish for attacking the UN.
    Or, you know, from RIGHT INSIDE the school:



    Or from RIGHT OUTSIDE the school:



    Is Hamas a signatory to treaties governing the conduct of its armed forces? Is Hamas holding 1.8 million people in a state of siege, is Hamas illegally occupying the West Bank in violation of treaties she is party to? Hamas is a terror group, I expect Hamas to act like a terror group. Funny how the US didn't have to bomb hospitals and schools to defeat Al Queda in Iraq, or engage in a decades long occupation, or move in hundreds of thousands of colonists... Ditto for the Taliban. Even in locations were the occupation did last for decades like Germany and Japan we didn't move in the colonist and grind the local people into the dirt. Israel is supposedly a civilized nation, I wish she would like act like one.
    Okay, let's take this one slowly, and we'll start with the second to last bit first:

    Even in locations were the occupation did last for decades like Germany and Japan we didn't move in the colonist and grind the local people into the dirt.
    This conflict, and therefore this discussion, is about Gaza, despite Hamas' attempts over the weekend to make this about Judea and Samaria as well. Let's keep it that way, shall we?

    Is Hamas a signatory to treaties governing the conduct of its armed forces?
    They're well on their way, considering they are in a unity government with Abbas, and the PA have already sent in applications for membership in more than one international treaty or body.

    Is Hamas holding 1.8 million people in a state of siege, is Hamas illegally occupying the West Bank in violation of treaties she is party to?
    A) Siege on Gaza is legal, as Palmer Report concluded, and necessary, as tunnels have shown.

    B) Like I said, Judea and Samaria have no part in this discussion.

    Hamas is a terror group, I expect Hamas to act like a terror group. Funny how the US didn't have to bomb hospitals and schools to defeat Al Queda in Iraq, or engage in a decades long occupation, or move in hundreds of thousands of colonists... Ditto for the Taliban.
    I'll get to the first part of that sentence later.

    But first:

    He admitted some schools had been attacked because Iraqi forces had been inside, and accused the Iraqis of also using hospitals and mosques as cover.

    The BBC's Andrew North reports seeing large numbers of injured civilians at the hospital.

    He was also shown books registering more than 250 deaths at the hospital over the past 11 days, but says it was impossible to check the doctors' claim that all those listed were civilians, or that most had died as a result of American air strikes.

    He says it is possible at least some of the deaths were Iraqi irregulars, but the doctors insisted all military personnel had been treated elsewhere.

    Hospital rumours

    Fears of more civilian carnage were raised on Wednesday with reports that a maternity hospital in Baghdad had been hit by a bomb.

    The ICRC - which runs the hospital - later confirmed that the hospital had been damaged though it was empty at the time and no-one died inside.

    Other reports, however, say that some passers-by outside the building were killed.
    And there's this one:


    October 7/8 400-bed women's hospital, Wazir Akbar Khan Kabul 13-19 Bomb falls near hospital Reportedly 19 women die in gynecology ward India Express 10/9/01; Chic. Trib. 10/8/01; Seattle Post Intell. 10/9/01

    October 15 Hospital and homes Kandahar 5-13 strafed by AC 130S 5 killed when seeking treatment PNS 10/17/01, BBC News 10/16/01, Arab News 10/16/01

    October 21 Military hospital and mosque Herat 100 F18 drops 1000 lb cluster bomb destroys 200-bed hospital and nearby mosque. Miss target by 300 feet Dawn 10/28/01, PNS 10/23/01, T of I 10/25/01, AFP 10/24/01

    November 9 Hospital Kandahar 15 bombs bombs hit hospital in Kandahar, the Mirwais Mina Hospital PNS 11/10/01, FP 11/10/01
    Don't you absolutely HATE being so absolutely, completely and totally WRONG?

    And yes, Israel has bombed hospitals. After receiving and documenting repeated attacks from the hospital, and calling numerous times to ensure the hospital was empty. And those secondary explosions? They confirm reports by the hospital's chief that Hamas had turned it into a major HQ and arms depot.



    Hamas is a terror group, I expect Hamas to act like a terror group.
    And now, we get to this. Cause this one is a beauty:

    Has your hatred of Israel so blinded yourself that you are willing to excuse TENS OF THOUSANDS of Hamas war crimes, just because they are a terror group and can't be expected to act any better?

    Did you follow that same logic following 9/11, claiming that Al Qaeda were nothing more than a terror group, and therefore they can be forgiven for acting like one?

    Honestly, that argument is so stupid, you either would have to be a complete moron to make that argument, (which we know you're not), or you would have to hate Israel so much you would be completely blind to the fact that you are talking such clear and obvious nonsense, spouting off the first thing that comes to your brain, if only to try and make Israel look worse.

    I gotta say, that's a new low even for you.....
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    And then there was this, from an hour ago:

    Israel Says Deaths in UNRWA School Were Not Caused by IDF Fire

    Israel Says Deaths in UNRWA School Were Not Caused by IDF Fire
    JULY 27, 2014 2:25 PM

    In a statement released Sunday evening, the Israeli army denied that it was responsible for the deaths of some 15 Palestinians in a United Nations Refugee Works Agency (UNRWA) school in the northern Gaza Strip on July 24.

    “The inquiry concluded that during the intense fighting between IDF forces and Hamas militants, the militants operated adjacent to the UNRWA school. The militants fired anti-tank missiles at IDF soldiers, who then responded by firing several mortars in their direction,” the army statement said.

    “The inquiry… concluded that a single errant mortar landed in the courtyard of the UNRWA school, when it was completely empty.”

    “The IDF stresses it does not operate or target international organizations in the Gaza Strip, and the ongoing coordination conducted via the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories (COGAT) is continuous without change, even during times of combat.”

    “In light of the inquiry’s findings, the IDF rejects the claims that were made by various officials immediately following the incident, that people were killed in the school premises as a result of IDF operational activity,” the statement concluded.

    Watch the IDF drone’s-eye-view of the explosion in the school courtyard: http://videoidf.co.il/1259-EN.mp4

    “During the afternoon a battle took place between Hamas terrorists and IDF forces in the Beit Hanoun area. Besides that, we indeed have indications that rockets fell in the vicinity, fired by Hamas from within Gaza in the Beit Hanoun vicinity,” an IDF spokesman told The Algemeiner on Thursday.

    Later that evening, the IDF tweeted that “Last night, we told Red Cross to evacuate civilians from UNRWA’s shelter in Beit Hanoun btw 10 am & 2 pm. UNRWA & Red Cross got the message.”

    “Hamas prevented civilians from evacuating the area during the window that we gave them,” they army said in a second tweet, adding that “Today Hamas continued firing from Beit Hanoun. The IDF responded by targeting the source of the fire.”

    “Also today, several rockets launched from Gaza toward Israel fell short and hit Beit Hanoun,” the IDFcontended in a separate tweet.

    UNRWA also acknowledged on Thursday that Hamas fired into the Beit Hanoun area, where the agency’s school was hit, according to Israel’s Channel 2 News.

    The Israel Defense Forces has counted at least 100 rockets fired by Hamas as striking within Gaza.

    “Have you heard? #Hamas are launching rockets at…..#Gaza over 100 times in 9 days,” IDF Spokesman, Lt.-Col. Peter Lerner, said last week.

    Meanwhile, Palestinian and foreign reports at the site describe a “scene from a horror movie,” with wounded children being brought for medical treatment while others are seen huddling in building stairwells to avoid further shelling – whatever the source.

    Richard Engel of NBC News tweeted: The “Unrwa chief in gaza tells @NBCNews initial assumption is school was hit by #israeli fire.”

    ABC News’ Jon Willams said the IDF says it “asked UNRWA to evacuate compound & offered humanitatian ‘window’. UN says IDF refused UNRWA request for ceasfire.”

    Williams said United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki-moon was “appalled by news of attack on @UNRWA school in #Gaza. Many killed – including women & children, as well as UN staff.”

    BBC video Journalist Kelvin Brown noted that “Some of the survivors of the blast at the school in #BeitHanoun have taken shelter in the local hospital.”

    Attachment 37530

    IDF map showing 100 Hamas rockets striking within Gaza. Photo: IDF / Twitter.IDF map showing 100 Hamas rockets striking within Gaza. Photo: IDF / Twitter.
    An analysis by blogger Elder of Ziyon showed that of the 192 rockets fired last Tuesday by Hamas and counted by the Gaza NGO Safety Office, the IDF said 122 rockets struck Israel and 26 were intercepted by the Iron Dome, leaving 44 Hamas rockets striking within Gaza.

    The blogger said, “Of course, 44 rockets can do a lot of damage and kill a lot of people. Reporters on the scene in Gaza have yet to talk about this or even admit the possibility that some of the casualties they are highlighting may have been killed quite directly by Hamas or other terror groups.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigross86 View Post
    Let's take this slowly:


    "An IDF source said that army representatives made contact with UNRWA and the Red Cross over the past few days to inform them that troops were shot at from near the school, and that the IDF would return fire toward the source of the shooting, which was located near the school."
    Do you need the definitions for near and from? Israel has laser guided bombs and misisles.... hitting schools and hospitals with such precision weapons is not an accident.

    There are also more than one report of the possibility that the UNRWA school was hit by a Hamas rocket. Since Protective Edge has begun, over 100 Hamas rockets have landed back in Gaza. Famously, during Pillar of Defense, a Hamas rocket fell on Gaza during a ceasefire and killed a baby, which was then promptly blamed on Israel, despite all the facts to the contrary.
    Of course Israel will try and blame as much on possible on Hamas. But Israel is the one doing the bombing in Gaza and has dropped more bombs and fired more shells and than Hamas has fired rockets. So law of averages and common sense says its most likely Israeli arms doing it.

    Let me see if I actually understood what you just said: School is out for summer, so we can just use UN facilities as weapons storage depots?! Do you seriously read what you type before you hit send?
    That is not what I said.

    As for they being valid military targets, Ban Ki-Moon would beg to disagree with you. Just read the above reply. Or hell, I'll post it here for you as well, so you can't pretend you didn't see it either:

    "The following statement was issued today by the Spokesman for UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon:

    The Secretary-General is alarmed to hear that rockets were placed in an UNRWA (United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East) school in Gaza and that subsequently these have gone missing. He expresses his outrage, and regret, at the placing of weapons in a UN-administered school. By doing so, those responsible are turning schools into potential military targets, and endangering the lives of innocent children, UN employees working in such facilities, and anyone using the UN schools as shelter.
    Israel didn't bomb the empty schools, she bombed schools ad hospitals filled with refugees.

    The Secretary-General notes that this is inconsistent with UN Security Council resolution 1860 (2009), which calls for the prevention of arms smuggling. He demands that militant groups, who are responsible, must stop such actions and should be held accountable for endangering the lives of civilians in this manner.

    The Secretary-General has asked for a full review of such incidents and how the UN responds in such instances. The United Nations is taking concerted action to increase its vigilance in preventing such episodes from happening again. To this end, the Secretary-General has directed the UN Department of Safety and Security (DSS) and the UN Mine Action Service (UNMAS) to immediately develop and implement an effective security plan for the safe and secure handling of any weapons discovered in United Nations premises. Further, he has directed UNMAS to immediately deploy personnel with expertise to deal with this situation.
    What exactly does this have to do wit Israel attacking hospitals?

    The Secretary-General calls on all of those who have any influence over militant groups to send an unmistakable message that this is unacceptable.
    Since you care so much about the UNGA I know feel free to bring in such motions as they pass concerning Israel.


    I'm sorry, you seem to be confused here, on several issues. The first is more a question of linguistics: Are they targets, or are the artillery and bomb attacks indiscriminate. I mean, I know Gaza is small, but it would be really hard to indiscriminately bomb and somehow, manage to hit the targets we're aiming for.

    The other issue you seem to be confused on is who exactly is being indiscriminate. Hamas are the ones lobbing rockets at cities and population centers, a self-admitted war crime by the Palestinian envoy to the UNHRC. Israel are the one who have attacked approximately 4,000 military targets, with approximately 1,000 Palestinian dead. Now, obviously, every single civilian death is a tragedy, but honestly, don't you think that if we were indiscriminately bombing, there would be a lot more than just 1 dead per every 4 attacks?

    Add the fact that out of those 1,000 dead, many of those are duplicates (as I've shown above), and according to the Palestinians' own guidelines, every single person killed in Gaza is an innocent civilian, even though the IDF has stated with confidence that they've killed over 500 Hamas combatants.
    I doubt Israeli strikes have killed more than 50 Hamas combatants. The attacks are neither proportionate nor discriminatory as required by law.

    Oh, so now you're an expert on international law and the LOAC, and you can determine, beyond a shadow of a doubt, from your living room, what the military gain from attacking a certain target will be, and whether it's proportionate or not?! Gimme a break. Let me remind you that the IDF is the side in this conflict that DOES call off attacks which might lead to civilian casualties. Like I said, I've got the videos to prove it. This post is long enough without them, but give the word, I'll give you plenty of examples.
    I chose to give Israel the benefit of the doubt. But since you seem to be so pro-UN. The Un has stated Gaza is occupied and the law of the occupier not the LOAC applies. lets start using that standard. You know because it prohibits things like making war on the captive population and the use of collective punishment.



    Or, you know, from RIGHT INSIDE the school:
    voice over... Show me color images with things that can be identified as a school.

    Or from RIGHT OUTSIDE the school:

    Like I said, to Israel "right outside" is a very malleable distance. They try and show the school and only show trees some 50m away...

    This conflict, and therefore this discussion, is about Gaza, despite Hamas' attempts over the weekend to make this about Judea and Samaria as well. Let's keep it that way, shall we?
    Uhm no, 3 Israeli teens were kidnapped and murdere din the WB. Israel blamed Hamas and invaded the WB re-arresting many of those released in the Gilad Shalit exchange. Israel also attacked a Hamas compound in Gaza forcing Hamas to respond with rocket attacks. To date, Israel has arrested hundreds of people who had nothing to do with the kidnapping/murder and has failed to provide any evidence the killer(s) belonged to Hamas. Further, Bibi is claiming the right to forever prevent a Palestinian state in the West Bank in order to prevent another Gaza.... Israel, not Hamas made this conflict about both areas.

    They're well on their way, considering they are in a unity government with Abbas, and the PA have already sent in applications for membership in more than one international treaty or body.
    On their way and signatories are two different things.

    A) Siege on Gaza is legal, as Palmer Report concluded, and necessary, as tunnels have shown.
    The Palmer report said naval blockade was legal but it also said, "In pronouncing itself on the legality of the naval blockade, the Palmer Report does not recognize the naval blockade as an integral part of Israel's closure policy toward Gaza which has a disproportionate impact on the human rights of civilians," they said in a joint statement.

    An earlier fact-finding mission named by the same U.N. forum to investigate the flotilla incident also found in a report last September that the blockade violated international law. The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) says the blockade violates the Geneva Conventions.

    B) Like I said, Judea and Samaria have no part in this discussion.
    Since Israel made it about both Gaza and the West Bank yes it does.


    I'll get to the first part of that sentence later.



    Don't you absolutely HATE being so absolutely, completely and totally WRONG?
    Nice detective work, in 10 years of war for the US you've found the equivalent of 1 weeks worth of IDF attacks on civil institutions including some US that were misses with dumb weapons.


    And yes, Israel has bombed hospitals. After receiving and documenting repeated attacks from the hospital, and calling numerous times to ensure the hospital was empty. And those secondary explosions? They confirm reports by the hospital's chief that Hamas had turned it into a major HQ and arms depot.
    No investigation has ever found arms or commanders in a bombed hospital. Given how loudly the UNRWA and ICR would scream if Hamas even tried you are really grasping at straws. BY the way funny how the translation says house=hospital...



    And now, we get to this. Cause this one is a beauty:

    Has your hatred of Israel so blinded yourself that you are willing to excuse TENS OF THOUSANDS of Hamas war crimes, just because they are a terror group and can't be expected to act any better?
    Tens of thousands of war crimes vs 1.8 million er day for Israel... Its not hate, I've stated repeatedly that Israel has the right to exist in safety, but so does Palestine. You always resort to this claim and we both know why. You try and link opposition to Israeli policy in the occupied territories to hatred of Israel which allows you to dehumanize and legitimize anyone who doesn't toe your jack booted line as an antisemite.

    Did you follow that same logic following 9/11, claiming that Al Qaeda were nothing more than a terror group, and therefore they can be forgiven for acting like one?
    typical strawman, where did I say I forgive? Expecting a treaty signatory to obey said treaty is a stand alone issue. I opposed the US use of water boarding because I feel it violates a treaty we are party to.

    Honestly, that argument is so stupid, you either would have to be a complete moron to make that argument, (which we know you're not), or you would have to hate Israel so much you would be completely blind to the fact that you are talking such clear and obvious nonsense, spouting off the first thing that comes to your brain, if only to try and make Israel look worse.

    I gotta say, that's a new low even for you.....
    I didn't make that argument, you did. Since you only allow two options for coming to the conclusion you did, and since we know you don't hate Israel- stupid is as stupid does. I wish I could say it was a new low for you. The argument I made was- those who sign treaties need to obey them- period full stop. This statement is consistent with past statements I've made about similar situations not relating to Israel.

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    Prominent British journalist Jon Snow gives his thoughts after returning from Gaza.


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    Let's all maintain our civility please and avoid personal insults. Thank you.
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  14. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minskaya View Post
    Doktor, you know very well the procedure for a question, concern, or complaint regarding moderation. Either PM the Administrator or any Moderator and it will be discussed by the staff and a response will be provided to you. Please do not do this again.
    Wow..Since when has this site become so serious as to tell someone, like a school ma'am, 'not to do this again'

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    The Secretary-General has asked for a full review of such incidents and how the UN responds in such instances. The United Nations is taking concerted action to increase its vigilance in preventing such episodes from happening again.
    It must suck to be in such an important position of power and yet be so castrated.

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