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Gripen, The best Stealth, Sixth Generation fighter!!!!1111 ~ Bill Sweetman

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  • Gripen, The best Stealth, Sixth Generation fighter!!!!1111 ~ Bill Sweetman

    The Planet


    The Planet’s Best Stealth Fighter Isn’t Made in America

    The U.S. military likes to think it makes the world’s most sophisticated combat aircraft. Think again.

    In 2005, Lockheed Martin labeled the F-35, the stealthy new jet they were building for the Pentagon, as a “fifth-generation” fighter. Ironically, it was a term that they had borrowed from Russia to describe a different stealthy fighter, the F-22. But the term caught on. Some of Lockheed’s rivals tumbled into this rhetorical trap and tried to argue that “fourth-generation” was just as capable—whether it is true or not, making such a case is an uphill struggle.




    But if “fifth-generation” means more than “the ultimate driving machine,” a sixth generation will emerge. Saab—yes, that Saab—can argue that it has built the first such aircraft. The Swedish plane has got a mouthful of a name: the JAS 39E Gripen. But it could well be the future of air combat.

    The concept behind the “fifth generation” of fighters is almost 30 years old. It dates to the final turning point in the Cold War, when the Reagan administration accelerated the arms race, believing (correctly) that the Soviet economic engine would throw a rod first. The F-22 was designed for a challenging but simple war: if you were in a NATO fighter and the nose was pointed east, pretty much everyone headed your way was trying to kill you.

    Defense technology led aerospace in those days, and aerospace drove many other technologies. Today’s gaming, simulation and movies are descended from 1980s military simulators.

    The world has changed a bit. Operation Allied Force in 1999 presaged the air campaigns of the 2000s, where targets were soft but hard to find, and harder yet to pick out of the civilian environment. We can say little for certain about the nature of future conflict, except that it is likely to be led by, and revolve around, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR). For the individual pilot, sailor or soldier, that means having better sense of the conflict zone is key.

    Demographics and economics are squeezing the size of the world’s militaries—nations with more than 100 combat aircraft are few and getting fewer. There are no blank checks for overruns.

    Much of the technology of 1995, let alone 1985, has a Flintstones look from today’s perspective. (My 1985 computer boasted 310 kB of storage and communicated at a screaming 300 bits per second.) Software is no longer what makes machines work; an iPhone is hardware that is valued because of the apps that it supports. This technology is characterized by development and deployment cycles measured in months. In aerospace, the lead in materials and manufacturing has gone to the commercial side.

    The conundrum facing fighter planners is that, however smart your engineering, these aircraft are expensive to design and build, and have a cradle-to-grave product life that is far beyond either the political or technological horizon.

    The reason that the JAS 39E may earn “sixth generation” tag is that it has been designed with these issues in mind. Software comes first: the new hardware runs the latest Mission System 21 software, the latest roughly-biennial release in the series that started with the earlier, A and B models of the aircraft.

    Long life requires adaptability, both across missions and through-life. The Gripen was designed as a small aircraft with a relatively large payload. And by porting most of the software to the new version, the idea is that all of the C and D models’ weapons and capabilities, and then some, are ready to go on the E.

    The Swedes have invested in state-of-the-art sensors, including what may be the first in-service electronic warfare system using gallium nitride technology. It’s significant that a lot of space is devoted to the system used to pick out friendly from hostile aircraft; a good IFF (“identification friend-or-foe”) system is most important in a confused situation where civilian, friendly, neutral, questionable and hostile actors are sharing the same airspace.

    Sweden’s ability to develop its own state-of-the-art fighters has long depended on blending home-grown and imported technology. Harvesting technology rather than inventing it becomes more important as commercial technology takes a leading role and becomes more global. The JAS 39E engine is from the U.S., the radar from Britain and the infra-red search and track system is from Italy. Much of the airframe may be built in Brazil.

    However, what should qualify the JAS 39E for a “sixth generation” tag is what suits it most for a post-Cold War environment. It is not the world’s fastest, most agile or stealthiest fighter. That is not a bug, it is a feature. The requirements were deliberately constrained because the JAS 39E is intended to cost less to develop, build and operate than the JAS 39C, despite doing almost everything better. As one engineer says: “The Swedish air force could not afford to do this the traditional way”—and neither can many others.

    It’s an ambitious goal, and it is the first time that Sweden has undertaken such a project in the international spotlight. But if it is successful it will teach lessons that nobody can afford not to learn.
    :whome::whome::whome:

    I used to have Some respect for Bill... Well, that is gone now.
    Last edited by cr9527; 09 Jun 14,, 05:33.

  • #2
    Originally posted by cr9527 View Post
    The Planet



    :whome::whome::whome:

    I used to have Some respect for Bill... Well, that is gone now.
    the man is a fool. he's also come up with his own definition of 6th Gen as its different from internal docs I've seen re next gen platforms...

    Sweetman once had a crack at me for using the term warfighter and accused me of making up the word - its been around since 1985 in various internal docs (originally referenced for COIN was the earlist I've seen) - and across various militaries. If you're going to present as an expert then you better make sure that you're up to speed with termoinlogy - not nearly 30 years out of date....
    Linkeden:
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    • #3
      Originally posted by gf0012-aust View Post
      the man is a fool. he's also come up with his own definition of 6th Gen as its different from internal docs I've seen re next gen platforms...

      Sweetman once had a crack at me for using the term warfighter and accused me of making up the word - its been around since 1985 in various internal docs (originally referenced for COIN was the earlist I've seen) - and across various militaries. If you're going to present as an expert then you better make sure that you're up to speed with termoinlogy - not nearly 30 years out of date....
      Oh wow, I thought only haters of the new Medal of Honor game bashed the name "warfighter".

      It is a term that has been used by defense contractors for ages :P

      But still, I never would've foreseen him write a piece of garbage like this, self contradicting itself all over the place.

      Comment


      • #4
        Seriously what is that guy thinking? His recent articles have been so far off-base, I've been wondering if he wasn't money on the side.

        Comment


        • #5
          So according to Sweetman’s metrics for a 6th generation aircraft, the Embraer Super Tucano also fits the bill right? It is a very modular aircraft using lots of “off the shelf” hardware and software, it is very adaptable, it is rugged and can operate from unimproved airfields. It is also built with components originating from around the world, and it only costs about $10 million per aircraft.

          Oh and by the way, it uses a turboprop, tops out at 367 mph, and has a service ceiling of 35,000 ft. It isn’t the fastest, most agile, or stealthiest plane, but that qualifies as a feature now right? Behold the 6th gen aircraft of the future!
          Attached Files

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          • #6
            I believe Mike Sparks has taken wing!
            “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
            Mark Twain

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            • #7
              Don't give him any ideas!
              All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
              -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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              • #8
                And then the 7th generation:

                Attached Files

                Comment


                • #9
                  While I disagree with the concept of labeling the JAS-39 E/F as a "6th generation fighter"- nitpicking over terminology and comparing the author with Mike Sparks is missing the point of the article. This is an op-ed intended to convince the audience that the JAS-39 E/F may demonstrate features of future aircraft acquisition- budget conscious platforms that are still very capable will become far more prevalent. They are not pitched as the "best at *insert random capability here*. The desire to have the "stealthiest", "fastest" or "deadliest" aircraft around will be overridden by acquiring a platform that is capable of fulfilling current and potential future mission sets given budgetary restrictions.

                  This thread has honestly turned into a series of ad hominems against the author rather than addressing "why is this a stupid idea". I don't know the author's prior history or his reputation but that shouldn't matter. The discussion should be oriented around the merits of the article, not the author.

                  That all being said, while the article makes valid points about platform acquisition in general, I don't believe there will be a universal shift towards providing "sufficient capabilities" at low costs. Yes, you obviously want a project that will be cost efficient (the F-117 is a fantastic example in my mind. Skunk Works managed to produce a remarkable and revolutionary platform for far less than expected) but buying "mid-level" platforms only fills a portion of the market. It makes sense that Sweden, Brazil and Switzerland would opt for the JAS-39E/F. As it is pitched, it's a very capable platform that is supposedly low cost. These countries don't need F-22s, F-35s or some true 6th generation fighter as we understand them. But there are other parts of the market that do demand the best and greatest because their potential adversary is also trying to acquire the best and greatest. Now the "budget" platform won't cut it anymore.

                  And thus we reach the critical flaw in this op-ed. The JAS-39E/F isn't the future. It isn't defining the "next generation" of aircraft. It's a continuation of a trend that has always existed in economics. A supplier will find a part of the market that they can fit into. Saab (is continuing to) fill this niche. There is no revolution here.

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                  • #10
                    As cr9527 said, I used to have respect for Sweetman, he was usually on the cutting edge of aviation technology, especially back in the '80's & '90's; but now it looks like he's taken a huge step backwards.
                    "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by gf0012-aust View Post
                      he's also come up with his own definition of 6th Gen
                      Well, at least the piece serves as a good parody highlighting how irrational buzzwords in particular in regard to "nth generation" in a transnational procurement context are.

                      Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                      I believe Mike Sparks has taken wing!
                      I hereby nominate Stavatti's F-26 Stalma for the first sixth-generation fighter.

                      Even if it doesn't come with the 8-inch sidefiring howitzer Sparky would want in an aircraft.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ace16807 View Post
                        This thread has honestly turned into a series of ad hominems against the author rather than addressing "why is this a stupid idea". I don't know the author's prior history or his reputation but that shouldn't matter. The discussion should be oriented around the merits of the article, not the author.
                        I agree with you that there is and will continue to be a market for economical aircraft that are good solid fighters but not necessarily cutting edge. That being said, I disagree with the author's assertions that these economical aircraft represent the 6th "generation". A fighter's "generation" is a capabilities based classification. The associated price-tag, places of manufacture, and use of commercial components are all useful metrics, yet none of those denote any significant shift in capabilities.


                        3rd generation aircraft were designed to use guided weapons such as air to air missiles, and had avionics for ground attack.
                        4th generation aircraft are notable for increased maneuverability via relaxed stability, as well as the use of digital computers, and AESA radar.
                        5th generation aircraft are designed with great concern for RCS with use of internal weapons bays, composite materials, and other signature reduction techniques. Sensor fusion across multiple platforms may well become a defining characteristic of 5th gen fighters as well.
                        6th gen ???

                        The idea that you can tout a new fighter to be 6th generation when it doesn't bring any new capabilities to the table is the author abusing the terminology. Being economical with military hardware is hardly a revolutionary concept, and it has nothing at all to do with potential new capabilities. This is why I think people are being derisive of the author.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
                          I agree with you that there is and will continue to be a market for economical aircraft that are good solid fighters but not necessarily cutting edge. That being said, I disagree with the author's assertions that these economical aircraft represent the 6th "generation". A fighter's "generation" is a capabilities based classification. The associated price-tag, places of manufacture, and use of commercial components are all useful metrics, yet none of those denote any significant shift in capabilities.


                          3rd generation aircraft were designed to use guided weapons such as air to air missiles, and had avionics for ground attack.
                          4th generation aircraft are notable for increased maneuverability via relaxed stability, as well as the use of digital computers, and AESA radar.
                          5th generation aircraft are designed with great concern for RCS with use of internal weapons bays, composite materials, and other signature reduction techniques. Sensor fusion across multiple platforms may well become a defining characteristic of 5th gen fighters as well.
                          6th gen ???

                          The idea that you can tout a new fighter to be 6th generation when it doesn't bring any new capabilities to the table is the author abusing the terminology. Being economical with military hardware is hardly a revolutionary concept, and it has nothing at all to do with potential new capabilities. This is why I think people are being derisive of the author.
                          the issue about generational definition is also about how industry and media come up with their own definitions - even with 5th gen it has long been touted by early deriders of JSF that it was a lockmart marketing term - unfort that took on sime currency with the broader public and stuck - the reality is that 5th gen was not a lockmart definition and was appearing as a descriptor of (then) future gen aircraft in a number of militaries internal documentts on future force and platform development

                          CREF my pithy response to his new interpretation of 6th gen. 6th gen definitions started appearing in some internal military documents about 18 months ago - and as you have indicated the definitions revolve around capability shifts not around issues such as construction concepts

                          Every one of the docs I've read have referred to capability metrics such as greater networking into the broader "Air" construct, being an active node in the broader sensor footprint, the capacity to take advantage of generational advances in digital sensing packages which turn the platform into an active contributor to the common operating picture and things such as being able to use active sensor tech into directed energy weapons. It includes the capacity for the single artifact to be able to act as a "theatre" guided weapons manager even if it wasn't the original shooter

                          The above has appeared in various internal military discussion papers for at least 18months - and I'd suggest that countries such as US, UK, France, Russia and Sweden are common in their subscription to elements of the above fitting into their future platform development concepts for the next gen artifact. Modularity of build is not new - and we already do it for comms packages and some weapons combinations - at a maritime level the US has had a crack at the concept in the LCS

                          People can call a banana a fire hydrant if it makes them feel happy, but the reality of what various militaries already consider to be critical parts of the definition are already in place.

                          as a further example, it always amuses me when I see Sukhoi or Mig or Shenyang enthusiasts deride the concept of "stealth" when in actual fact it was a russian construct brought into reality because the americans were able to apply computing power to resolve what had previously been a soviet "blackboard" idea (finessed by a scotsman) - and one which they (the sovs) had never been able to convert into a functioning platform because they never had the computing power in country at the time. Ditto for the RMA (revolution in military affairs) - again originally a Russian theory paper which they never adopted due to the collapse of the CCCP but which the US recognised as being transformational if they were going to have to get over the failures of military thought circa the Vietnam War. The impact of that change in RMA triggered the stunning success of GW1/GW2 and US advances were critically responsible for shaping Chinas rapid shift from a heavily manned army to a transformational professional force etc.... Yet - in the broader press and industry media the focus (as usual) was around individual capabilities and the sexiness of specific platforms

                          The "moral of the story" re prev poaragraph? - It's not industry or the media which define how militaries undergo change - and its certainly not the press who accurately articulate platform advances.
                          Last edited by gf0012-aust; 10 Jun 14,, 00:04.
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by gf0012-aust View Post
                            CREF my pithy response to his new interpretation of 6th gen.
                            I have to ask...what does CREF stand for?
                            “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                              I have to ask...what does CREF stand for?
                              Cross REFerence
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