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Sgt Bowe Bergdahl released

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  • #76
    Originally posted by citanon View Post
    If it was ONE taliban guy traded for him, I think we would not hear the same criticism today. The fact that there were FIVE high level guys who are probably going back there to be big heroes and leadership figures. That's different. That's questionable.
    I also think the US should have obtained better terms from the Qataris. Although the released Talibs supposedly cannot leave Qatar for a year, they can (and already have) meet with comrades and use phones, computers etc. This far ranging freedom almost ensures recidivism.
    sigpic

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    • #77
      Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post
      Citanon:

      If I recall correctly the Taliban made some videos with Bergdahl dressed in uniform complete with helmet criticizing US involvement in A-stan. They must have provided the uniform because Bergdahl left his uniform and equipment behind.

      Obama's people screwed up the public side of this affair from the gitgo, and they keep on stubbing their toes. If the truth were known, Obama probably didn't inform Congress of the trade as the law required because Congress might have balked at the price of 5 Taliban heavies. Now he's throwing in excuses like Bergdahl was in bad health and he may have been tortured for trying to escape.
      I take it that you are reserving judgement for WH's claim that Bergdahl was in imminent danger of being executed until such time that WH offers evidence it is more than a spin?
      All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
      -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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      • #78
        Kevin Levin on his excellent Civil War Blog Civil War Memory posted this excellent essay I wish to share.

        There Are No Monuments To Deserters on Civil War Battlefields


        There Are No Monuments To Deserters on Civil War Battlefields
         June 8, 2014 
        Bowe Bergdahl, Civil War Monuments, desertion, Peter Carmichael


        Regardless of the assumptions and background knowledge that we bring, the presence of monuments on our Civil War battlefields may be one of the greatest obstacles to understanding the full range of soldier experiences. The monuments allow us to focus in on the most heroic stories and themes, which no doubt reinforces feelings of national pride and an understanding of what kind of behavior is expected. Such a focus, however, comes at the price of ignoring moments when soldiers fall short of what is expected of them in the heat of battle. Normally, we can safely ignore such moments, but it’s not so easy when one is thrust on us as is the case of Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl, who reportedly abandoned his station in Afghanistan and spent five years as a Taliban Prisoner of War.

        My friend, Peter Carmichael, is fond of promoting Civil War battlefields as places where Americans can ponder the past ten-plus years of a nation at war. This can be an incredibly fruitful approach to impressing upon visitors many of the connections between the Civil War era and the past two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. It was something that I tried to emphasize when touring battlefields with my students in Virginia. It’s hard not to see the influence of the past decade on scholarship having to do with the struggles of Civil War veterans and especially on the havoc that battlefields played on the human body. The most recent issue of The Civil War Monitor includes a one-legged veteran on the cover with the title, “Broken Soldiers” highlighted. It would be a mistake, however, to assume that this influence of historians extends at all to the broader society.

        The bitter and divided response over Bergdahl’s release is for me the clearest indication that Americans remain woefully disconnected from war. As much as I admire the goals of a Carmichael-style battlefield tour let’s at least start by admitting that since 2003 we have in no way carried ourselves collectively as a nation at war. Once war was declared in both Afghanistan and Iraq we were perfectly content as a nation with utilizing a volunteer force. We celebrated the patriotism of the many men and women who volunteered and we were perfectly content to sit by and not worry about the multiple tours of duty carried out by so many. I for one can talk all day about the life of the Civil War soldier and I am embarrassed to admit that I can say next to nothing about military life in camp, on the march and in battle in the two most recent theaters of war.

        I don’t remember reading any Facebook updates commenting on Bergdahl’s decision to join the military nor do I remember any commentary when he was captured or at any point in the last five years of his captivity. We could go on with our lives with no concern for Bergdahl at all and yet the moment he was released we all had something to say. Yesterday I made the mistake of getting involved in a Facebook thread in which the author claimed that Bergdahl was not a POW. I asked if there was any evidence. Had I missed something in my reading? What I got in return for my question was re-direction and suspicion, not to mention a personal attack from a Civil War historian who recently published a book in which he accuses others of rushing to judgment about a certain Confederate general. I doubt that either of these individuals ever gave Bergdahl a moment of thought before this past week. That was par for the course given the wild accusations made about Bergdahl that could be found across social media and even on mainstream news.

        Walking on Civil War battlefields I sometimes have to remind myself that not everyone (including the wounded) marched in close order forward toward the enemy. Many likely succumbed to their fears and dropped to the ground, sought cover or simply ran in the opposite direction. Even beyond the battlefield itself we know that many soldiers fell short of the martial ideal. Those us who are serious about history and the experiences of these men know to tread carefully when dealing with these moments. We know that there is a context in which to interpret specific moments in the life of the Civil War soldier, not with the goal of judging the individual in question, but with the hope that some kind of understanding is possible. We have an obligation to tread carefully as historians, but as Americans we owe it to these men who ultimately contributed to the preservation of the Union.

        We have a similar responsibility to Sergeant Bergdahl. Those of you for whatever reason choose to reduce Bergdahl’s military experience down to one moment do him and every other service member a huge disservice. If we cared little for what these men and women experienced while in combat and now as many struggle to readjust to civilian life, we can at least do whatever it takes to ensure that they don’t become the next poster child in our ongoing political partisan warfare.

        How do we do that? We can start by educating ourselves about the soldiers experience in its totality over the past decade. Maybe that would truly prepare us as a nation to thank our fellow citizens for all that they have done.
        Last edited by Albany Rifles; 09 Jun 14,, 15:53.
        “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
        Mark Twain

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Triple C View Post
          I take it that you are reserving judgement for WH's claim that Bergdahl was in imminent danger of being executed until such time that WH offers evidence it is more than a spin?
          One of the panel people on Face The Nation yesterday said the CIA did not believe Bergdahl was in bad health. The White House made the call based on photos of him looking pasty and thin. I take it the intel people were unimpressed with this reasoning. I have no links to substantiate any of this.
          To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

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          • #80
            JAD, so far, that's as reasonable an interpretation of what's going on as any. I'm not opposed to trading prisoners on principle, but I still wonder if the number of Taliban suspects could have been better negotiated. Five high value enemies for one private is a steep trade. Which brings to question, why the exchange?
            All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
            -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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            • #81
              I can understand you reticence JAD on the White House but considering the batting average of the CIA over the last several decades....
              “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
              Mark Twain

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Triple C View Post
                JAD, so far, that's as reasonable an interpretation of what's going on as any. I'm not opposed to trading prisoners on principle, but I still wonder if the number of Taliban suspects could have been better negotiated. Five high value enemies for one private is a steep trade. Which brings to question, why the exchange?
                To be flip, let's just say one errant US soldier is worth more than 5 Taliban heavies. The Taliban can ponder on that as they try to figure out what to do with those guys.
                To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                  I can understand you reticence JAD on the White House but considering the batting average of the CIA over the last several decades....
                  Good enough for baseball!
                  All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
                  -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Triple C View Post
                    JAD, so far, that's as reasonable an interpretation of what's going on as any. I'm not opposed to trading prisoners on principle, but I still wonder if the number of Taliban suspects could have been better negotiated. Five high value enemies for one private is a steep trade. Which brings to question, why the exchange?
                    "I will not trade a Marshal for a Lieutenant." - Stalin on the German proposal to exchange his son Yakov for German Field Marshal Friedrich Paulus.
                    Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                    Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

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                    • #85
                      Gentlemen,I believe you miss a point.This isn't about POW exchange in wartime.This is about leaving A-stan in the most face saving manner possible.It's something this administration has been all about since the start.The problem is they're awfully awkward and manage to fvck up even simple things.Whatever they touch,turns into a scandal.
                      Those who know don't speak
                      He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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                      • #86
                        Apparently, 80-90 executive branch officials in the Pentagon, White House, and the intelligence agencies knew of the deal, but no members of Congress were informed beforehand. Congressional lawmakers say they were only informed that news about Bowie Bergdahl was immanent.
                        sigpic

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                        • #87
                          I think there are too many misconceptions on the whole trade. From what I read and understand, the five aren't considered "terrorists" since they're part of the Afghan Taliban (which isn't considered a terrorist organization by the State Department). This isn't to say that the Taliban 5 aren't dangerous. Also the legality of the swap it all is pretty murky.

                          Although I don't support Obama as president, past presidents have made exceptions to the whole "we don't negotiate with prisoners" so, really, this isn't new. As for Sgt. Bowe, I'll reserve any judgements until new information comes along but it does seem like he's a deserter.

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                          • #88
                            This is true, and as Taliban they occupy a squishy legal area- are they illegal combatants since they violate several long standing requirements of valid combatants? Or are they government officials and legitimate POW's? But regardless of that, Bergdahl was held by the Haqqani, not the Taliban. What did the Haqqani, who usually look for money, get for having Taliban traded for their prisoner?

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                            • #89
                              I wouldn't know nor was I aware of the Haqqani until now, and according to Wiki, they were allied with the Taliban but according to the State department, they are labeled as a terrorist organization. Other than that, I don't know. I'm relying on Wiki and according to Wiki, the Taliban originally wanted a large settlement and 21 prisoners until it went down to just 5 so perhaps the Taliban took control of the whole situation.

                              As for the Taliban five, they were influential for the Taliban, dangerous, and some were might have been responsible for war crimes. I think this could cause future problems for the US and future administrations.

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                              • #90
                                What are the limits for a father fighting for his son's life?

                                Bowe Bergdahl Parents: The Sacrificial Lambs - TIME


                                U.S. Military
                                The Sacrificial Lambs

                                Joe Klein @JoeKleinTIME

                                June 12, 2014
                                What the Bergdahl affair tells us about the hidden costs of a decade of war

                                Imagine that you are Robert Bergdahl. It’s not hard if you’re a parent. For the past five years, you’ve been terrified and obsessed. Your son Bowe has been captured by the Taliban, and you will do anything–anything–to get him released. You are a former surfer, a former truck driver, a Republican. Bowe has always been a delight and a worry, smart, fragile, ephemeral. Before he joined the Army, he lived in a Buddhist monastery. Before he left for Afghanistan, he made a deep-dive study of the local culture, history and language.
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                                So you decide to do a Bowe-like thing. You try to show respect toward his captors. You learn their language and history. You grow your beard out in scraggly Salafist fashion. You learn that one of his captors has lost a son–shades of Homeland!–to an American missile strike. You may have been touched by Stockholm syndrome: you now know this war has been a horror on all sides. You give a speech at an Idaho Republican Party fundraiser and ask for compassion for Bowe’s captors. There have been at least three years of negotiations between the U.S. government and the Taliban, a prisoner swap for Bowe’s release that might lead to peace talks. But nothing has happened.
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                                And then he’s released. Suddenly, you’re standing before cameras in the Rose Garden with your wife Jani and the President. In gratitude, you say the words in Arabic that precede any public speech or film or performance: “In the name of Allah, the most merciful and compassionate.” Your hometown of Hailey, Idaho, is readying a parade to honor Bowe. But all hell breaks loose. First, it’s all about Bowe. He’s a deserter. He may be a traitor. He left his body armor on his cot and walked out of his combat outpost; he left a note saying he was done fighting. (Later, it turns out he left no note.) Some members of his platoon, understandably infuriated, are on television–an organized Republican public relations assault–saying all sorts of terrible things about him. (Later, the New York Times reports that the platoon was troubled, “raggedy” even before Bergdahl left it.) There are reports that your son became a semi-spokesman for the Taliban, that he was allowed to carry a gun. (Later, there are reports that he tried to escape twice and was placed in a cage, in darkness, shackled, for weeks at a time.)

                                Next, they come after you. Sean Hannity says you uttered a “war cry of Allah” in the Rose Garden. Hannity has two Islamic “experts” on his radio show who don’t refute the claim. One of them asserts that you “radicalized” your son just as the mother of the Boston Marathon bombers “did.” But Hannity knows a main chance when he sees it. Back to the war cry: “And you think the father interpreted it that way and purposely said that in the Rose Garden, and it was sending a message and the President–you could see the President smiling there as he says it.”

                                So, somehow, after five years of mind-bending parental torture, you have become a pawn in a right-wing meta-story: the President is a secret Muslim sympathizer. Oh, and you may be a Muslim terrorist sympathizer too. You’re getting death threats. Your town cancels the parade. Finally, in your defense, a former pastor of yours tells the Christian Post that you and Jani have been “really hurt,” that you are practicing Christians. “I’ve prayed with both of them regularly,” he says. “They both have been through a torture mill that I cannot begin to comprehend–five years of a living death. It has affected their health, both physically and mentally.”

                                And the worst is yet to come: now there are reports that Bowe doesn’t want to talk to you, that the Army psychiatrists don’t think he’s ready for a family reunion. You’ve alluded to troubles he would have coming back, so this might not be a total surprise. But you are now experiencing the media equivalent of that steel cage in which Bowe was confined.

                                It is possible, of course, that Robert Bergdahl became a Taliban sympathizer during the years his son was held in captivity; it’s possible Bowe was complicit as well–we’ve seen this story before. If so, he’ll be court-martialed. But we don’t know the facts yet. And we have leaped, with reflexive bloodlust, to crucify an American family that has already suffered too much–a scapegoat sacrifice to a decade of blood, during which we leaped into Iraq, which seems to be slipping back into civil war, and distended the war in Afghanistan, all based on things we surmised but didn’t really know.
                                To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

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