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  • Originally posted by snapper View Post
    We are doing so; please see KOMBAT and KONUS as well the Stugna-P.
    Originally posted by snapper View Post
    How long does it take to learn how to use a javelin? A week or a year?
    In the Ukraine's case? Try 50. The JAVELIN is armoured recee protection. Killing Russian tanks do you absolutely zero good if their follow on regiment is proceeded by recee-by-fire.

    Originally posted by snapper View Post
    Ukraine has never asked for system that takes months or years to use and indeed a supply of Challenger 2's or Leopard 2's or even Leclerc MBTs would cost more than what can produced here for next to nothing and take to long for the troops to learn to how to use effectively.
    In case you have not followed, THERE ARE NO SPARE JAVELINS!!!!! All of NATO bought only what we needed. To give you ours mean that we will be depleteling our own stocks. Why should we when you know shit all on how to use them properly? Hell, not even the Poles are giving you theirs.

    Originally posted by snapper View Post
    Nobody has asked you to fight Ukraine's battles
    You did or did you forget you wanted an American BCT on the Dniepper?

    Originally posted by snapper View Post
    on it's behalf but you have no trouble supplying these weapons to Iraqis - deep in bed with Iran and are amazed when the kit turns up in Yemmen, from which you have pulled out of...
    The Iraqis, rightly or wrongly were our stooges. The Ukrainians, not for one freaking second, pretended to be ours.

    Originally posted by snapper View Post
    But then possibly you think this Muscovite aggression is about just Ukraine? They grabbed 1.5km of the gas pipeline going through Georgia by unilaterally moving the South Ossetian border recently or does that mean nothing to you?
    Actually, it doesn't. A Chinese or an Iranian pipeline, however ... not that we intervene but we will be betting on the winners.

    Originally posted by snapper View Post
    With respect I have been studying these problems in detail for some time - well since the Russo - Georgian War in several different roles and geographical areas.
    Georgia fought tooth and nail. The Ukraines didn't.

    Originally posted by snapper View Post
    Ukraine can win it's own battles - but if you were to "give us the tools (and) we'll finish the job" to borrow from Churchill.
    Horse crap. It has been and always will be a matter of will. We have cited enough examples where an inferior armed foe defeated a superior one simply because of matter of will.

    Originally posted by snapper View Post
    Not strictly correct. The hill overlooking Shyrokyne is not regarded as Shyrokyne and the Mykolayiv Marine Battalion patrol the town and have observation posts east of Shyrokyne.
    I am 100% correct. You gave up the high ground.

    Originally posted by snapper View Post
    In which direction should we advance? 30 miles due east would put them on the other side of the border in 'Russia'. The real threat in Sektor M is considered (rightly in my view) to be around Volnovakha, north of Mariupol on the H20 road to Donetsk. If any 'land bridge' operation is to be attempted Mariupol would be bypassed to the north and then cut off at the rear. This is why I could never agree to your "march 10,000 men into Mariupol" type ideas. 10,000 isolated troops in Mariupol would suffer resupply problems after some time and at least some of them would be better held in reserve to cut the lines of any advance and break back through to Mariupol, which is already well fortified.
    Are you fucking shitting me? 20 miles, you cut a Russian LOC. 30 miles and you've just threatened another. All within range of artillery on that fucking hill!!!!! Two fucking Russian LOCs that can be elimiated and you what? Sign it away?

    Originally posted by snapper View Post
    Certainly Azov, Donbass as well the Chechen Battalions (Dudayev Battalion, and Sheik Mansur Battalion - which are not all Chechens or even Moslems) are all well experienced now but have been at the front for a long time. They need alot of refitting and patching up. In general all Ukrainian forces are 100% more experienced now than in May last year - not hard since most had never experienced combat then. Even Lt-Gen Ben Hodges (US Forces Commander Europe) said "We've learned a lot from the Ukrainians". Do you not practice rotations normally?
    Never at the expense of military superiority.

    Originally posted by snapper View Post
    I am 110% sure that Mariupol is secure barring a Muscovite breach of Minsk 2.
    Against 2 full Russian Field Armies? Not a chance in hell. You're at least two lines short. However, if you did drove all the the way to the Russian border under the artillery watch of Shy...

    Oh, btw, Sara, there is no fucking excuse for Shyrokyne. It was an open battle before, during, and after Minsk 2. It was NEVER PART OF MINSK 2. Kiev signed away a strategic victory.
    Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 06 Aug 15,, 01:59.
    Chimo

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
      In the Ukraine's case? Try 50. The JAVELIN is armoured recee protection. Killing Russian tanks do you absolutely zero good if their follow on regiment is proceeded by recee-by-fire.
      I am at a loss as to what "50" is supposed to be quantified by. However when former "miners and taxi drivers" (to use Putin's words) of Donbass can learn how to operate a Buk within days I am pretty the Ukrainian troops who Lt-Gen Ben Hodges says have been also teaching US forces (as well as learning from them of course) should manage it without within a week tops... As for the follow up recce teams - our forces are used to them now; we have snipers and of course our own spotters for that.

      Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
      In case you have not followed, THERE ARE NO SPARE JAVELINS!!!!! All of NATO bought only what we needed. To give you ours mean that we will be depleteling our own stocks. Why should we when you know shit all on how to use them properly? Hell, not even the Poles are giving you theirs.
      I cannot comment on what support the Poles do or not give here. New President in Poland very soon (today I think) who says "he will seek to strengthen cooperation between countries "from the Baltic Sea to the Adriatic and the Black Sea" to build a group that will promote their interests in the European Union". In Polish this is known as the Międzymorze, in the latinised form the 'Intermarium' or 'space between the seas'.

      As regarding the "no spare javelins" I am of course in position to say whether this correct or not. Nor I would think is a retired Canadian Colonel in a better position than I to know. Yet senior US figures have publicly suggested the idea and why suggest it if is not possible? Hopefully the Ukrainian "Skif" project will provide a solution and be superior to the javelin (as some claim). The Stugna-P is basically a KORNET variant more than a javelin analog I am advised by those who are more familiar with these systems than I.

      Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
      You did or did you forget you wanted an American BCT on the Dniepper?
      I am sure you understand the difference between a deterrent and "fighting others battles for them".

      Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
      The Iraqis, rightly or wrongly were our stooges. The Ukrainians, not for one freaking second, pretended to be ours.
      The Iraqi's had no choice and were victims of both Saddam and Bush Jnr. Ended well...? Ukraine did not and does not wish to be a victim and for this reason gave up 1,240 nuclear warheads in return for a guarantee which now you tell them doesn't mean peanuts. Great signal to send to Iran - or any other state that may be worried by large conventional forces. What do you suppose Duda has in mind for the Intermarium he plans?

      Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
      Actually, it doesn't. A Chinese or an Iranian pipeline, however ... not that we intervene but we will be betting on the winners.

      Georgia fought tooth and nail. The Ukraines didn't.
      Georgia fought tooth and nail for a week... Ukraine has been fighting for 18 months and only been deprived of victory by overt Muscovite intervention and it's 'allies' desire for appeasement due mercantile interests, bribery and sheer damn stupidy. How many Georgians died 'fighting tooth and nail'? Couple of hundred maybe? I do not wish to detract from those brave Georgian soldiers who fell into the Muscovite trap but don't you dare tell me that Ukraine has not sacrificed more blood and tears in 18 months than Georgia did in a week. It is frankly an insult to their families. What other country has fended off major Russian advances for 18 months since 1943/4?

      Nor I note have the Georgian contested the changes to the South Ossetian border militarily, which given their 'allies' eagerness, and to be fair their President, to appease a Muscovite Mafiosi, is probably wise. But if you do not understand the gas pipeline implications then frankly you are not understanding anything. Why do you think the Syrian war started? Why are the Muscovites supplying Assad with weapons? What of Azerbaijan and the Caspian gas? Some of us do care and understand and have followed it for a long time (some longer than I too). I used to live in a lovely cottage in the Caususes before this mess and played 'Cassandra' to an empty audience hall for a long time. Now Ukrainians die for it daily and you doubt their will and the importance of the gas supply routes for both Moscow and the West? I have every respect for your service Sir - shame you cannot respect the same in the Ukrainian armed forces. If you are genuinely interested in the growing Muscovite gas problem I would advise reading this;http://www.bloombergview.com/article...-on-hard-times But no doubt you have known about these matters all the time and only feign lack of interest?

      Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
      Horse crap. It has been and always will be a matter of will. We have cited enough examples where an inferior armed foe defeated a superior one simply because of matter of will

      I am 100% correct. You gave up the high ground.

      Are you fucking shitting me? 20 miles, you cut a Russian LOC. 30 miles and you've just threatened another? All within range of artillery on that fucking hill!!!!!

      Oh, btw, Sara, there is no fucking excuse for Shyrokyne. It was an open battle before, during, and after Minsk 2. It was NEVER PART OF MINSK 2. Kiev signed away a strategic victory.
      The will is not lacking in Ukraine but we are constrained by Minsk 2 and our 'allies'. When looking for where the will is lacking seek first in Berlin, Paris, London and Washington who forced us into the insanity of Minsk 2 'agreement'/'ceasefire' - not that Putin has kept any of the other agreements or Treaties to which he is legally or morally obliged. It was the 40th anniversary of much vaunted the Helsinki Final Accords the other day but it is openly violated by the annexation of Crimea and South Ossetia and nobody from Berlin to Washington bats an eye. The UN founding Charter is violated but yet Muscovy can veto an MH17 International Tribunal. Geneva conventions on pow's are violated - 'Motorola' (aka Arseny Pavlov), a former car wash attendent and 'Russian' citizen - admits publicly to shooting POWs and nobody bat's an eye. No no Ukraine must be whiter than white at our 'allies' insistence who then while holding us back then you have the double discourtesy of accusing our troops of lack of will and accuse Ukraine of wanting others to fight it's battles on it's behalf while withholding any decent supply of weapons that you hand out freely to any Arab etc... though Ukraine has withstood Muscovite aggression longer than any since WW2. This is some warped thinking indeed!

      Nor is the high ground overlooking Shyrokyno nor the beach, nor Shyrokyno town itself in any way or 'given up'. The high ground positions remain manned and the town patrolled and firing posts manned and observation are points established east and north of the town. That means controlling the ground rather giving it up in my book. They have gone and we are there. In ancient Greek terms it means we win. Whether they come back to Shyrokyno or not remains to be seen but the local Sektor Commander has proven able to defend it with meager forces and is increasingly better supplied.

      "20 miles, you cut a Russian LOC"... Supposing it were in my power to order the Sektor Commander to advance 20 miles from Shyrokyno in which direction could or should he advance without breaking Minsk 2 which our 'allies' force us to abide by...? And there Sir is the nub of the contradiction that you refuse to address and why any Ukrainian victory can ONLY be on the counter offencive... but doubtless you worked this out months ago... Luckily others did as well!

      Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
      Against 2 full Russian Field Armies? Not a chance in hell. You're at least two lines short. However, if you did drove all the the way to the Russian border under the artillery watch of Shy...
      Suppose that a strong advance were made east along the coast from Mariupol/Shyrokyno... They get to the border. Do you suppose they might not throw the occasional stone or worse at our troops from their side of the border? They have shown no reticence in doing so in the past. So would you then propose that Ukrainian forces undertake operations within enemy territory to destroy their artillery and build up there? It is a brave idea and noble one too but based only in the south would not liberate any Ukrainian land currently under occupation and lose alot of political so called 'allies'. By the way if they then came for a 'land bridge' the border on the coast is useless and they will happily skip around en route to Volnovakha and the Dnieper. Then you have a useless advance and need to withdraw it asap... or would have them hold the eastern coastal border when the battle for Dniepropetrovsk was raging? The troops now under Muscovite artillery fire on the border may have been useful there.... I have thought about these matters almost since last May and discussed them many times with colleagues and friends and I have a fair idea of all the pro's and con's of a-z ideas. I am open to new ones but unless and until you tell me in which direction an advance from the Mariupol area should be made I am not hearing any idea. Perhaps you would care to answer my question and solve the political riddle that is bound up with it? If you cannot solve the political riddle imposed on Ukraine by your appeasement minded politicians then no advance is permissible anyway. Or should Ukraine break Minsk 2?

      Also of note recently has been Dmitry Peskov's (Putin's spokesman) second wedding where he was photographed wearing a $620,000 watch. The former Mrs Peskova lives in Paris and his daughter attended a private school in 'decadent' France. See; http://www.bloombergview.com/article...620-000-watch- A typical would 'be hilarious if it weren't endemically true' article. None of this 'dirty money' is investigated in France or elsewhere of course while Ukraine fights it's corrupting influence and be purer than thou - literally. Ukraine fights and suffers casualties daily you have gall to criticise when your own countries welcome Muscovite mafiosi money. I shall say no more on this as the whole hypocrisy makes my blood boil I do not wish to offend any respected member of the forum.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by snapper View Post
        We are doing so; please see KOMBAT and KONUS as well the Stugna-P.

        Then why do you want Javelins?

        How long does it take to learn how to use a javelin? A week or a year? Ukraine has never asked for system that takes months or years to use and indeed a supply of Challenger 2's or Leopard 2's or even Leclerc MBTs would cost more than what can produced here for next to nothing and take to long for the troops to learn to how to use effectively.
        It depends. How long would it take to teach you how to set-up and fire the missile? maybe an hour. But to teach how to Effectively employ the weapon months.
        And that would just cover the basics.
        It has different engagement criteria, different flight profile, ect. This isn't a case of trading in a M-16 for a M-4
        Last edited by Gun Grape; 07 Aug 15,, 18:57.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by snapper View Post
          I am at a loss as to what "50" is supposed to be quantified by. However when former "miners and taxi drivers" (to use Putin's words) of Donbass can learn how to operate a Buk within days I am pretty the Ukrainian troops who Lt-Gen Ben Hodges says have been also teaching US forces (as well as learning from them of course) should manage it without within a week tops... As for the follow up recce teams - our forces are used to them now; we have snipers and of course our own spotters for that.
          Recce by Fire. That means that the Russians don't care if you there or not, they're just going to rain artillery down. You let go one JAVELIN and they let the artillery go. That is what the GS and I are trying to tell you so you don't committ suicide.

          Originally posted by snapper View Post
          As regarding the "no spare javelins" I am of course in position to say whether this correct or not. Nor I would think is a retired Canadian Colonel in a better position than I to know. Yet senior US figures have publicly suggested the idea and why suggest it if is not possible? Hopefully the Ukrainian "Skif" project will provide a solution and be superior to the javelin (as some claim). The Stugna-P is basically a KORNET variant more than a javelin analog I am advised by those who are more familiar with these systems than I.
          One thing about living in a free society, we know what our soldiers are buying. It's called the budget.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FGM-148_Javelin#Users

          Originally posted by snapper View Post
          I am sure you understand the difference between a deterrent and "fighting others battles for them".
          And you're putting the world at risk for your ignorance. When we're loaded for bear, we expect bear. The same goes for the Russians.

          Originally posted by snapper View Post
          The Iraqi's had no choice and were victims of both Saddam and Bush Jnr. Ended well...?
          Very well. We destroyed Iraq.

          Originally posted by snapper View Post
          Ukraine did not and does not wish to be a victim and for this reason gave up 1,240 nuclear warheads in return for a guarantee which now you tell them doesn't mean peanuts.
          Blame it on the Russians and you could not have used those nukes. They were rusting out and you didn't have the launch codes. You would had to refurbish them and more than likely, sold them on the black market if we didn't pay to get them back into Russian hands.

          Originally posted by snapper View Post
          Great signal to send to Iran - or any other state that may be worried by large conventional forces. What do you suppose Duda has in mind for the Intermarium he plans?
          Depends on the President, doesn't it.

          Originally posted by snapper View Post
          Georgia fought tooth and nail for a week...
          Georgia fought the whole 58th Army. You fought a Russian brigade.

          Originally posted by snapper View Post
          Ukraine has been fighting for 18 months and only been deprived of victory by overt Muscovite intervention and it's 'allies' desire for appeasement due mercantile interests, bribery and sheer damn stupidy. How many Georgians died 'fighting tooth and nail'? Couple of hundred maybe? I do not wish to detract from those brave Georgian soldiers who fell into the Muscovite trap but don't you dare tell me that Ukraine has not sacrificed more blood and tears in 18 months than Georgia did in a week. It is frankly an insult to their families.
          Tell that to Kiev.

          Originally posted by snapper View Post
          What other country has fended off major Russian advances for 18 months since 1943/4?
          You're shitting me? Afgahnistan and Chechnya and both over 10 years.

          Originally posted by snapper View Post
          Nor I note have the Georgian contested the changes to the South Ossetian border militarily, which given their 'allies' eagerness, and to be fair their President, to appease a Muscovite Mafiosi, is probably wise.
          And yet, he's a Govenor in your country now.

          Originally posted by snapper View Post
          But if you do not understand the gas pipeline implications then frankly you are not understanding anything.
          Money as it always is. Frankly, the pipeline arguement is a red herring. If you can build a road around a place, you can build a pipeline elsewhere. Just this was the easiest and cheapest route. Does not mean it is the only route.

          Originally posted by snapper View Post
          Why do you think the Syrian war started? Why are the Muscovites supplying Assad with weapons? What of Azerbaijan and the Caspian gas? Some of us do care and understand and have followed it for a long time (some longer than I too). I used to live in a lovely cottage in the Caususes before this mess and played 'Cassandra' to an empty audience hall for a long time. Now Ukrainians die for it daily and you doubt their will and the importance of the gas supply routes for both Moscow and the West?
          Nothing is going through Syria, not for the foreseeable future. This is just a strawman arguement.

          Originally posted by snapper View Post
          I have every respect for your service Sir - shame you cannot respect the same in the Ukrainian armed forces.
          A shame that you ignore your own soldier's views. I'm not the one jumping up and down about abandoning the high ground. I'm echoing the Asov and Donbass viewpoints. Signing away the high ground is pure stupidity, especially after you won it.

          Originally posted by snapper View Post
          If you are genuinely interested in the growing Muscovite gas problem I would advise reading this;http://www.bloombergview.com/article...-on-hard-times But no doubt you have known about these matters all the time and only feign lack of interest?
          Red herring. Adds nothing to the strategic situation around Mariupol.

          Originally posted by snapper View Post
          The will is not lacking in Ukraine but we are constrained by Minsk 2 and our 'allies'.
          You re-enforced Mariupol with 10,000 men and then proceeded to add just one additional single defence line when there should have been at least 3. I would rather have seen 5. Don't give me that this was Minsk 2, if you could have added one more, you could have added a 3rd.

          Shyroknee was happenning before, during, and after Minsk 2. It was not covered by Minsk 2 and you won it. Then you proceed to sign it away. Asov and Donbass soldiers are crying bloody hell. Are you saying that they don't know what Kiev signed away?

          Originally posted by snapper View Post
          When looking for where the will is lacking seek first in Berlin, Paris, London and Washington who forced us into the insanity of Minsk 2 'agreement'/'ceasefire' - not that Putin has kept any of the other agreements or Treaties to which he is legally or morally obliged. It was the 40th anniversary of much vaunted the Helsinki Final Accords the other day but it is openly violated by the annexation of Crimea and South Ossetia and nobody from Berlin to Washington bats an eye. The UN founding Charter is violated but yet Muscovy can veto an MH17 International Tribunal. Geneva conventions on pow's are violated - 'Motorola' (aka Arseny Pavlov), a former car wash attendent and 'Russian' citizen - admits publicly to shooting POWs and nobody bat's an eye. No no Ukraine must be whiter than white at our 'allies' insistence who then while holding us back then you have the double discourtesy of accusing our troops of lack of will and accuse Ukraine of wanting others to fight it's battles on it's behalf while withholding any decent supply of weapons that you hand out freely to any Arab etc... though Ukraine has withstood Muscovite aggression longer than any since WW2. This is some warped thinking indeed!
          Strawman and ignoring the issue.

          Originally posted by snapper View Post
          Nor is the high ground overlooking Shyrokyno nor the beach, nor Shyrokyno town itself in any way or 'given up'. The high ground positions remain manned and the town patrolled and firing posts manned and observation are points established east and north of the town. That means controlling the ground rather giving it up in my book. They have gone and we are there. In ancient Greek terms it means we win. Whether they come back to Shyrokyno or not remains to be seen but the local Sektor Commander has proven able to defend it with meager forces and is increasingly better supplied.
          You gave up the 20 miles your artillery covered or are you trying to tell me that your machine gun nests cover the same ground as your artillery batteries?

          Originally posted by snapper View Post
          "20 miles, you cut a Russian LOC"... Supposing it were in my power to order the Sektor Commander to advance 20 miles from Shyrokyno in which direction could or should he advance without breaking Minsk 2 which our 'allies' force us to abide by...? And there Sir is the nub of the contradiction that you refuse to address and why any Ukrainian victory can ONLY be on the counter offencive... but doubtless you worked this out months ago... Luckily others did as well!
          Don't buy it. Not for one freaking second. Minsk 2 is nothing more than a breather. You used it to rush men and to fortify Mariupol. It was by no means a peace treaty. Otherwise, you would start working out civil action and rebuilding plans.

          Originally posted by snapper View Post
          Suppose that a strong advance were made east along the coast from Mariupol/Shyrokyno... They get to the border. Do you suppose they might not throw the occasional stone or worse at our troops from their side of the border? They have shown no reticence in doing so in the past. So would you then propose that Ukrainian forces undertake operations within enemy territory to destroy their artillery and build up there? It is a brave idea and noble one too but based only in the south would not liberate any Ukrainian land currently under occupation and lose alot of political so called 'allies'. By the way if they then came for a 'land bridge' the border on the coast is useless and they will happily skip around en route to Volnovakha and the Dnieper. Then you have a useless advance and need to withdraw it asap... or would have them hold the eastern coastal border when the battle for Dniepropetrovsk was raging? The troops now under Muscovite artillery fire on the border may have been useful there.... I have thought about these matters almost since last May and discussed them many times with colleagues and friends and I have a fair idea of all the pro's and con's of a-z ideas. I am open to new ones but unless and until you tell me in which direction an advance from the Mariupol area should be made I am not hearing any idea. Perhaps you would care to answer my question and solve the political riddle that is bound up with it? If you cannot solve the political riddle imposed on Ukraine by your appeasement minded politicians then no advance is permissible anyway. Or should Ukraine break Minsk 2?
          First of all, stop with Minsk 2. It is a breather and you know it.

          2nd of all, what a load of baloney are you trying to spill. You advance, you fortify, and you repeat, rince, until you won the freaking war. And if that means luring, traping, and destroying the Russian 58th Army, that means luring, traping, and destroying the Russian 58th Army. That is EXACTLY what your army should be thinking. You have the artillery. You have the men. You just need to out smart and out plan them ... and you have not.

          The Ukrainian Army has done EXACTLY what I said they should do. They re-enforced Mariupol with 10,000 men. Which you claimed to be a violation of Minsk 2. Azov and Donbass officers are screaming bloody hell about signing away the high ground, a POV that I can readily understand. So, it would seem that your soldiers think more on my terms than on yours.

          Originally posted by snapper View Post
          Also of note recently has been Dmitry Peskov's (Putin's spokesman) second wedding where he was photographed wearing a $620,000 watch. The former Mrs Peskova lives in Paris and his daughter attended a private school in 'decadent' France. See; http://www.bloombergview.com/article...620-000-watch- A typical would 'be hilarious if it weren't endemically true' article. None of this 'dirty money' is investigated in France or elsewhere of course while Ukraine fights it's corrupting influence and be purer than thou - literally. Ukraine fights and suffers casualties daily you have gall to criticise when your own countries welcome Muscovite mafiosi money. I shall say no more on this as the whole hypocrisy makes my blood boil I do not wish to offend any respected member of the forum.
          Spare me your crocadile spit, your own government plays enough keystone cops with corruption. Government ministers arrested on national TV only to be released by court order the next day. And this has nothing to do with the military situation.
          Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 07 Aug 15,, 23:29.
          Chimo

          Comment


          • Originally posted by snapper View Post
            I am sure you understand the difference between a deterrent and "fighting others battles for them".
            Without the threat of being committed to battle there is no deterrence.

            As for giving equipment, (CBR/CMR) to Iraq. Not sure what your point is. They were trained by us. They use US/NATO Fire Support equipment and doctrine. And most important ,They use the same circle. Your country doesn't.

            Using the equipment, Russian, that you already have has many advantages. Using US equipment has far more disadvantages for you.

            Did some of the gear eventually wind up in Syria? Yes If that's a reason that you think we should stop supplying them and jump on your bandwagon, let me remind you that the Radar systems, that were not broke, that we sent you were in Russian hands within weeks.


            As for the Churchill quote, Your country isn't England. Your people don't like us, even now. And a whole lot of other reason that that quote doesn't apply.
            Last edited by Gun Grape; 07 Aug 15,, 19:12.

            Comment


            • Nobody seems to be losing sleep over "captured" radar systems. That said, nobody here is prepared to acknowledge that our own junior and senior leaders who've interacted with Ukrainian forces indicate we're learning as much as we're training. Equally, the Ukrainians evidently are adding to our radar TTPs with techniques we've apparently not considered.

              Little surprise as we've NEVER had those systems operating in a high indirect fire threat environment nor one that's so electronically degraded. The Ukrainians face those duo hurdles daily and have apparently achieved operating solutions that our own forces haven't considered.

              The Ukrainians aren't asking for much. CJCS and CINC NATO have no problem nor do they feel they've expended valuable political capital advocating for such. That works for me. I only wonder what, in their heart of hearts, they'd REALLY rather do?

              I suspect much more given a free hand.
              Last edited by S2; 08 Aug 15,, 02:58.
              "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
              "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

              Comment


              • Gunny,

                "...As for giving equipment, (CBR/CMR) to Iraq. Not sure what your point is…"

                I imagine she's more than a bit embittered by our nonplussed attitude when huge sums of equipment are freely surrendered to ISIS by our U.S. trained Iraqi "allies". Seems a rather stark difference if the Ukrainians can't account for every bean and bullet we've sent.

                That's fcuked up.
                "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

                Comment


                • Colonel twice now I have tried to explain to you the political and military dilemma and twice you have chosen to completely ignore a pretty simple question. If Ukraine is to keep to Minsk 2, as our 'allies' demand, in which direction from Mariupol/Shyrokyno should or could an advance be made?

                  By completely ignoring the constraints imposed on Ukraine and urging 'firmer action' you are entirely neglecting the facts. That's fine when you are sitting in Canada of course but hardly realistic for Ukraine's political or military leaders. While certainly I agree Minsk 2 is fundamentally flawed - and was broken by them on day 1 - it does not diminish the obligations imposed on Ukraine by it's 'allies' to stick by it.

                  Saakashvili is ex President of Georgia and there are not 10,000 troops in Mariupol but these are minor inaccuracies in your account compared to your unwillingness to face the real dilemma.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                    Without the threat of being committed to battle there is no deterrence.

                    As for giving equipment, (CBR/CMR) to Iraq. Not sure what your point is. They were trained by us. They use US/NATO Fire Support equipment and doctrine. And most important ,They use the same circle. Your country doesn't.

                    Using the equipment, Russian, that you already have has many advantages. Using US equipment has far more disadvantages for you.

                    Did some of the gear eventually wind up in Syria? Yes If that's a reason that you think we should stop supplying them and jump on your bandwagon, let me remind you that the Radar systems, that were not broke, that we sent you were in Russian hands within weeks.


                    As for the Churchill quote, Your country isn't England. Your people don't like us, even now. And a whole lot of other reason that that quote doesn't apply.

                    So when you are training (and learning from) Ukrainian troops you do not see fit to supply them - despite the wishes of Congress - but supply any Arab (who by and large are more anti US than Ukrainians) when your own Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff says that the Muscovite threat is the greatest threat to US yet supply to those who are actually fighting the Muscovite threat daily is withheld... What kind of weird logic is that?

                    I know and understand the 'diplomatic dilemma' that the West wishes to pose to the Putin mafiosi but if this is to work your politico's have to consider now what they will do when the Putin regime doesn't return control of the border to Ukraine later - because there is not a hope in hell of them doing so. What would it take for the US and the West in general to send assistance to those who are fighting what the US Chairman of Joint Chiefs assesses as the main threat?

                    Comment


                    • Seriously for all the mafia talk from the girl with the nazi brother - the Ukraine is more corrupt.

                      Police Facelift Not Enough to Polish Ukraine’s Corruption Record
                      Daryna Krasnolutska
                      July 29, 2015 — 5:00 PM EDT
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                      In Kiev, locals take snaps of the city’s revamped police force, complete with U.S.-style blue uniforms and smiles. Across town, camouflage-clad officers in masks lay out piles of $100 bills and diamonds seized from officials.

                      Events in Ukraine’s capital have some residents wondering whether the clampdown on corruption they’ve been itching for since the Soviet demise is finally under way. Failures by a string of governments to stem bribery and embezzlement contributed to two revolutions in a decade as the nation slid down graft rankings.

                      Improving transparency is key to maintaining aid from the U.S. and Europe to Ukraine’s economy, which is buckling amid a rising debt burden and a war with pro-Russian insurgents. But look beyond the pomp and showcase raids in Kiev and the authorities still have their work cut out -- from overhauling the judiciary to cleaning up the customs service. A shootout this month over tobacco smuggling underscored the task.

                      “People aren’t punished for corruption because the law-enforcement agencies and courts tasked with detaining them are completely corrupt,” said Oleksii Khmara, Berlin-based Transparency International’s representative in Ukraine. “The European Union and the U.S. gave the government an ultimatum: do what’s needed or say goodbye to the money.”

                      The raid in Kiev is a case in point. While it netted $400,000 in cash, 39 bags of diamonds and a Kalashnikov rifle from two prosecutors accused of bribe-taking, a court later freed the men on bail. David Sakvarelidze, the deputy chief prosecutor lured from Georgia after a successful anti-graft drive there, said the judge was inappropriately lenient.
                      ‘Enormous Problems’

                      Prosecutors and the judiciary face the brunt of criticism.

                      Two prosecutor generals have left amid graft allegations since protests ousted leader Viktor Yanukovych in February 2014 and found a den of corruption at his residence. Ex-officials have gone unpunished for crimes including killing demonstrators.

                      The courts fare similarly. Yanukovych allies have been bailed and allowed to slip into Russia. A search in June of offices belonging to the head of the Kiev appeals court unearthed guns, $8,000 cash and vouchers for 14.5 tons of fuel.

                      Even Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk, who took office 1 1/2 years ago, says there have been feet delays in tackling “enormous problems” in the judiciary and prosecutors office.

                      “We have to change the entire court system,” Yatsenyuk said this month in London. “We need someone not just to be arrested but behind bars, sitting in jail. That’s the best proof that things have changed.”
                      Smuggling Tunnel

                      Yatsenyuk plans to hire a British company to manage the customs service in four of Ukraine’s 24 regions. He’s also ordered a review of the local service in Mukacheve, a town near European Union member Hungary, after a gun battle over contraband cigarette flows.

                      The deadly clash between police and nationalist paramilitaries enraged Ukrainians, prompting President Petro Poroshenko to install a regional governor who’d fought graft in Ukraine’s war-torn east. He’ll have his work cut out: a 600-meter smuggling tunnel to Slovakia was discovered there in 2012, complete with railway tracks.

                      While Transparency International’s 2014 corruption perceptions gauge barely registered a difference in Ukraine, there’s been some progress.

                      Parliament approved legislation sought by the International Monetary Fund under a $17.5 billion bailout, including greater autonomy for an anti-corruption body. Recommendations by the Council of Europe also passed.

                      Some initiatives will take time, such as police revamp that includes wholesale personnel replacement, like in Kiev. U.S. officers visit to train new recruits.

                      “It’s clear you can’t make those changes overnight,” William Brownfield, U.S. assistant secretary of state for international narcotics and law-enforcement affairs, said July 17 during a conference call.
                      Ukraine debt crisis: Kiev faces fight with creditors as it reels from Putin's blows
                      War-torn Ukraine is battling to find a way out of a debt crisis made worse by its ongoing conflict with Russia
                      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/e...ins-blows.html

                      By Peter Spence, Economics Correspondent

                      1:15PM BST 08 Aug 2015

                      Comments787 Comments

                      With most eyes still on Greece, it is easy to forget about Europe’s other debt crisis. But Ukraine could soon take centre stage.

                      Battered by Russia’s military might, Vladimir Putin’s aggression has knocked out much of the economy’s productive capacity and stripped it of the valuable Crimean region.

                      The chaos has transformed a once-small debt load into one its government fears it will be unable to bear.

                      Tensions over Ukraine have also deterred foreign investors, notably prompting energy giants Shell and Chevron to cancel plans for shale gas projects. While it has the resources to be an energy supplier in the region, the country has instead become increasingly dependent on imported energy.

                      And the ensuing currency crisis – Ukraine’s currency, the hryvnia, has fallen by more than 60pc against the dollar since the start of last year – has rapidly rendered the country’s debt pile unsustainable. As much of Ukraine’s debt is dollar-denominated, paying it back is increasingly hard. It now appears unpayable, and at the turn of the year the IMF judged that restructuring was necessary.

                      Ukraine continues to face a battle on two fronts, both with a Russian aggressor and the country’s creditors, one of which is Russia. Its $70bn (Ł45bn) debt pile – and whether it will remain so large – is now the subject of intense debate. The country argues, that, like Greece, its obligations will prove impossible to pay.

                      Arseniy Yatsenyuk, Ukraine’s prime minister, has asked creditors to understand that it is at war, and has lost a fifth of its economy. GDP is estimated to have fallen 23pc since 2012, and the International Monetary Fund (IMF) expects it to contract further in 2015.

                      How bad things will get is a subject of extreme uncertainty. The fund has summed up the risks to the outlook as “exceptionally high”. It has recommended that bondholders accept losses now, so that Ukraine’s debt position does not get out of hand by 2020.

                      Such long-term debt sustainability forecasts are often met with scepticism. This is even more so the case when it comes to Ukraine. In the last few months, the IMF has had to adjust its forecasts, now expecting GDP to drop 9pc this year, rather than the 5.5pc pencilled in in March.

                      Nikolay Gueorguiev, the IMF’s mission chief in the country, has said that conflict in eastern Ukraine took a “heavier-than-expected toll on the economy in the first quarter”.

                      Ukraine-watchers fear that a further downturn could result in a refugee crisis, as would-be migrants look to resettle from a country where many have already suffered greatly. Many have already fled the vulnerable east, seeking better life chances and safety.

                      One small business owner who operated two shoe stores in Donetsk felt forced to flee the eastern city, and last summer headed west with his wife. He says that he still hears stories of merchants disappearing from Donetsk’s markets, who “are probably kidnapped by bandits in hope of ransom”.

                      Having opened a new shoe store in Vinnitsa, close to the capital, he says people still don’t have confidence. “Many young men are drafted to go fight in the east,” he explains, and as a result Ukrainians "try to avoid spending money as much as they can”.

                      The hryvnia’s depreciation compounds the problem, leading inflation to sky rocket. The IMF anticipates that it will reach 46pc by the end of the year, while wages have not kept up. The store owner says there will be “no shoe-buying sprees, for sure”.

                      The IMF has already approved a $17.5bn (Ł11.2bn) loan to the war-torn country, which the fund hopes will be part of a $40bn package once assistance from others is included, part of which it insists will come in the form of $15.3bn from debt restructuring.

                      That restructuring now seems certain, but the terms of any debt deal are far from clear. Natalie Jaresko, Ukraine’s finance minister, has said that investors will have to accept a write-down of 40pc. Creditors would prefer a smaller reduction, with one group reported to have called for a haircut of just 5pc.

                      Ukraine's finance minister Natalie Jaresko

                      This group – the so-called Ad-hoc Committee of Bondholders to the Ukraine – believes that the country’s debts are not so unsustainable. Rather, the government faces a short-term liquidity problem, it argues.

                      Collectively, it represents four creditors – US and London based funds – holding around $9bn of sovereign and state-owned enterprise-issued debt, more than half the tradable debt stock, or just over an eighth of Ukraine’s total obligations.

                      Led by Franklin Templeton, the committee argues that its own proposal for restructuring Ukraine debt would meet “all the IMF criteria and delivers $16bn of interest and debt maturity relief – not far short of the $17bn in new loans pledged by the IMF”.

                      The size of a haircut on Ukrainian bonds has become a sticking point, and not just for the direct financial loss creditors might take. A severe haircut could deter investors from putting their money in Ukraine again, and might see the government and private sector locked out of the capital markets, delaying the country’s recovery.

                      Ukraine’s public debt faces a long and winding path towards sustainability
                      Oxford Economics

                      Unlike the Greek case, the IMF cannot be accused of providing loans to a debt-stricken country only for that cash to go to private creditors. The fund assumed in its latest review that Ukraine would be able to raise $7bn from private investors by 2020, while it expects the country to repay $8bn to the IMF in the same period.

                      Evghenia Sleptsova, of Oxford Economics, said that “restructuring negotiations will almost inevitably lead to an inadequately low haircut because it will turn out to be impractical to factor in negative risks”.

                      These are numerous, but could include an escalation of the conflict with Russia, a weaker recovery, a fresh wave of banking sector losses or an inability to implement the economic reforms demanded of Ukraine.

                      Mr Gueorguiev said Ukraine’s authorities had achieved progress in “an exceptionally difficult environment”. And while a fresh ceasefire was negotiated between Ukraine and Russia in February, the agreement is incomplete, and there are worries that it will not hold.

                      Ms Sleptsova said “creditors have a strong incentive towards brinkmanship as the expected value of future bond returns may be higher if negotiations go over the wire and there is a default prior to restructuring, than if they agree to large haircuts”.

                      The IMF will probably propose a “moderate (if any) reduction in principal”, she said, which would fall short of the relief Ukraine needs, in her view. September 23 is touted as a probably deadline for a deal - when a $500m debt payment comes due - but any deal must be granted 21 days for all sides to agree, making mid-August the likely crunch point for negotiators.

                      Kiev has said that it aims to complete talks with creditors “by late September”, implying that it may miss that payment. IMF managing director Christine Lagarde has been clear that the fund is prepared to stand behind Ukraine, lending to the country even if it were to fall into arrears.

                      IMF managing director Christine Lagarde Photo: AFP

                      Vadim Khramov, of Bank of America Merrill Lynch, said: “Use of the media rather than direct contact between the Ukrainian ministry of finance and sovereign bondholders shows how unproductive the current pace of negotiations is; threats of a moratorium and hard default have been on the table.”

                      Such proponents argue that Ukraine does not need more loans and debt, but more in the way of grants, in order to recover. They have called for a revamp of the post-war initiative, the Marshall Plan, for Ukraine.

                      In the aftermath of the Second World War, the then US secretary, George Marshall, said it was logical for US “to do whatever it is able to do to assist in the return of normal economic health to the world”.

                      Investors such as the billionaire George Soros have argued that the same logic should now be applied to a badly damaged Ukraine. He has said it is up to Europe to respond, “not necessarily to impose sanctions on Russia, but to help Ukraine financially”.

                      The worst-case alternative, if Ukraine cannot be saved, may be far uglier than its Greek equivalent.

                      While failure by Athens to agree terms could lead to further economic pain and ejection from the EU, a failure to protect Ukraine would result in misery for a population more than four times the size, and could be the trigger to condemn the region to political instability and violence.
                      To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by snapper View Post
                        So when you are training (and learning from) Ukrainian troops you do not see fit to supply them - despite the wishes of Congress - but supply any Arab (who by and large are more anti US than Ukrainians) when your own Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff says that the Muscovite threat is the greatest threat to US yet supply to those who are actually fighting the Muscovite threat daily is withheld... What kind of weird logic is that?


                        Notice what he said. Its their nuclear weapons that make them the biggest threat. And that he will work with their military to prevent a "Miscalculation" that could lead to greater conflict between our two countries.

                        ISIS is the number 4 threat only because they don't have nukes. And they are the only ones actively disrupting the world stage right now.

                        Russia is supporting one side in your civil war. Its a local thing not our concern.

                        We do not need to go back to the cold war days of jumping on the bandwagon just to oppose Russia.

                        I know and understand the 'diplomatic dilemma' that the West wishes to pose to the Putin mafiosi but if this is to work your politico's have to consider now what they will do when the Putin regime doesn't return control of the border to Ukraine later - because there is not a hope in hell of them doing so. What would it take for the US and the West in general to send assistance to those who are fighting what the US Chairman of Joint Chiefs assesses as the main threat?
                        Its not a problem for the west. Just ask your EU and NATO neighbors.

                        Members of the US Congress may want to arm you, but those are the usual gang of chickenhawks that want to use a hammer on everything. Its also a political point, to make the Democratic party and President Obama look soft. It is getting to be election time.

                        The CJCS wants in because we need to "Update our plans to deal with "Hybrid warfare". Meaning, You gotta give us lots of money so we can adapt. Its all about the Benjamin's.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by troung View Post
                          Seriously for all the mafia talk from the girl with the nazi brother - the Ukraine is more corrupt.
                          You need to stop with the bashing of a fellow member.
                          “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by troung View Post
                            Seriously for all the mafia talk from the girl with the nazi brother - the Ukraine is more corrupt.
                            Strange that you are better aquainted with my Brother than I whom have known him all my life. Serving with a volunteer unit has benefits to serving with the regular army such that there is (or was) no fixed enlistment time and when you other business interests and do not have a Ukrainian passport (required for service in the regular army) it makes sense to join a volunteer unit. Azov are supposed to be good but if he had joined a Chechen Batallion I guess that would make him an ISIL supporter right?

                            Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                            Russia is supporting one side in your civil war. Its a local thing not our concern.
                            If you still believe this a 'civil war' was the Russo - Georgian War also a 'civil war'? Maybe the Transdniestria war was a Moldovan civil war too and there will follow an 'Estonian civil war' perhaps? When Girkin/Strelkov himself claims credit for starting the war "If our unit had not crossed the border, everything would've come to an end, like in Kharkiv [Ukrainian city], like in Odessa," (http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/igor-strelk...kraine-1475982), when Muscovite artillerly fire across the border and Muscovite troops are directly involved - at Ilovaisk and Debaltseve - this is not Russian troops or equipment by the thousand 'taking a wrong turn' but a Muscovite instigated, supplied and payed for invasion. Still keep taking the 'I don't want to know' pills if it makes you feel calmer. If it were of absolutely no concern to you in the view of your military Officers why re-inforce Poland, Romania and the Baltics or train Ukrainian troops?

                            Comment


                            • What is this Cossackia country?
                              Attached Files
                              No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                              To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by snapper View Post
                                If it were of absolutely no concern to you in the view of your military Officers why re-inforce Poland, Romania and the Baltics or train Ukrainian troops?
                                We reinforce Poland , Romania and the Baltic because they are NATO allies and we don't want your mess spilling over to their countries.

                                Training troops. Lets you kill each other more efficently so we don't have to get involved. Maybe you can fix your own mess

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