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  • Originally posted by snapper View Post
    Shyrokyno is still held by Ukrainian forces and is being fortifed and dug in as southern perimeter outside the existing defencive lines.
    You've given up the high ground that can shell the city. Granted that it was a truce agreement that obligated BOTH sides to withdraw from Shyrokno ... but that agreement should not have been made. You've won Shyrokyno. You've beaten back the attack. You've held the high ground. You should have pushed forward.

    Instead, you gave it up.

    So, you tell me, Sara. Which is more important? Shyrokno high ground or American JAVELINs?
    Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 02 Aug 15,, 16:46. Reason: Spelling
    Chimo

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    • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
      You've given up the high ground that can shell the city. Granted that it was a truce agreement that obligated BOTH sides to withdraw from Shyrokno ... but that agreement should not have been made. You've won Shyrokyno. You've beaten back the attack. You've held the high ground. You should have pushed forward.

      Instead, you gave it up.

      So, you tell me, Sara. Which is more important? Shyrokno high ground or American JAVELINs?
      The hill that Azov and Donbass and the Chechens previously occupied is to the west of Shyrokyno and is the basis of the south eastern outer defence perimeter. We have advanced aprox 3km east from the hill to occupy the town.

      Regarding javelins of high ground I would say both are important but given the choice of only one I would take the position myself as it can be used to direct artillery - which is what drove the 'orcs' out.

      Comment


      • Looks like your intel is obsolete.

        KyivPost: Pullout from Shyrokyne angers soldiers, stokes fear in Mariupol
        Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 02 Aug 15,, 18:04.
        Chimo

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        • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
          Umm.. pardon? That article was posted July 28th. The date today is August 2nd, nearly August 3rd in Ukraine. If anyone's intel is obsolete, it's yours, sir.


          Try this one:


          http://en.censor.net.ua/news/346073/..._general_staff

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Bacon View Post
            Umm.. pardon? That article was posted July 28th. The date today is August 2nd, nearly August 3rd in Ukraine. If anyone's intel is obsolete, it's yours, sir.


            Try this one:


            http://en.censor.net.ua/news/346073/..._general_staff
            Hey, idiot, can you fucking read? The lines have been established OUTSIDE OF SHYROKYNE BATTLE AREA!!!!!!! Or is simple English beyond your comprehension.

            Oh, yeah, IT IS!!!!

            Or are you suggesting that Kiev deliberately broke her word and her signature?
            Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 02 Aug 15,, 19:01.
            Chimo

            Comment


            • Occupied by Mykolayiv Marine Battalion.

              Comment


              • With no heavy weaponry allowed.
                Chimo

                Comment


                • This freaking make no Ukrainian military sense. Both sides are obligated to withdraw heavy artillery 15 kms from Shyrokyne. BIG FREAKING PROBLEM. History has shown that the rebels can move much faster than the Ukrainians. They ran circles around the Ukrainians.

                  And the guns won't be sitting in reserves, they will be deployed somewhere else to shore up the lines while the rebels would continue to keep theirs in offensive units, meaning they can drag their guns anywhere anytime they want.

                  For the Ukrainians to re-gun Shyrokyne, they would have to open a hole somewhere else and drag those guns up.

                  Shyrokyne was won. You should have pushed out from there. Not 3 or 4 kms but 20-30 miles and push the rebels back from threating Mariupol.
                  Chimo

                  Comment


                  • I still haven't figured out why they would want western equipment anyway. Or at least nothing above small arms.

                    Instead of hoping for Javelins they should be refurbishing their own ATMs. Why ask for a weapon that you don't know how to employ?

                    Same with the mobile counter battery/counter mortar radar. Its US equipment. It is designed to spit out a location for US/NATO artillery to pounce on. You guys don't even use the same circle as us.

                    It will be slower, once you learn not to abandon them on the battlefield, than using the equipment you already have.

                    You ask only because you want US/NATO troops fighting your battles for you. Because you know that our equipment also brings our troops.

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                    • What, pray tell, is the definition of "heavy weaponry"? I mean according to you these must be what, children's toy's?

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                      • Hehehehehahahahhahahahahahahahaha!!!! Let me guess. You call those tanks.

                        I actually called those LIGHT (as opposed to Heavy) Armoured vehicles. Boy, are you a dumbass.
                        Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 03 Aug 15,, 08:34.
                        Chimo

                        Comment


                        • 1:30 worth of footage and you believe that is enough to determine the extent of their arsenal? Your original complaint (i.e: where you first found fault) was that troops were being withdrawn. I would argue that while these may not be the “heavy weaponry” you were looking for; this parade is obvious evidence that the exercise has not been abandoned. Furthermore, I would contend that the seemingly resounding support it has appears to be an indication that Ukrainian forces have (at least in the eyes of the public) achieved success thus far in their directive. Thankfully, I have never experienced war firsthand, but I can imagine that if my hometown were at risk of invasion or if my personal safety were in jeopardy that I would not celebrate some half-assed protectors, I would jeer at their lack of commitment to my cause. If we were to return to the article you posted, and we were to assume that yes indeed, Mariupol does fear the consequences of the events at Shyrokyne, and that the common opinion is that Kiev’s response has been unsatisfactory, the video appears to contradict all of these things. Certainly, you may laugh at my lack of military knowledge/expertise (congratulations to you, sir) but this does not take away from the fact that the images you and I have both seen are abnormally upbeat, given the fact that Shyrokyne’s demilitarization is supposed to have spelled Mariupol’s doomsday. There are stronger forces afoot, it seems, and again I am left confused as to how you can possibly be so assured that Kiev is so sorely in the wrong when Ukrainians themselves (and here on this forum, a woman based out of Ukraine) are confident of victory.

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                          • Originally posted by Bacon View Post
                            1:30 worth of footage and you believe that is enough to determine the extent of their arsenal?
                            I believe it is more than enough to prove you know shit all.

                            Originally posted by Bacon View Post
                            Your original complaint (i.e: where you first found fault) was that troops were being withdrawn. I would argue that while these may not be the “heavy weaponry” you were looking for; this parade is obvious evidence that the exercise has not been abandoned.
                            Kiev signed on the dotted line to give up the high ground. Go argue that with her.

                            Originally posted by Bacon View Post
                            Furthermore, I would contend that the seemingly resounding support it has appears to be an indication that Ukrainian forces have (at least in the eyes of the public) achieved success thus far in their directive.
                            Did you even read what I fucking wrote? They won Shyrokyne.

                            Originally posted by Bacon View Post
                            Thankfully, I have never experienced war firsthand,
                            So what qualifications do you have to judge me?

                            Originally posted by Bacon View Post
                            but I can imagine that if my hometown were at risk of invasion or if my personal safety were in jeopardy that I would not celebrate some half-assed protectors, I would jeer at their lack of commitment to my cause. If we were to return to the article you posted, and we were to assume that yes indeed, Mariupol does fear the consequences of the events at Shyrokyne, and that the common opinion is that Kiev’s response has been unsatisfactory, the video appears to contradict all of these things.
                            Contradicts nothing. The videa was NOT taken at Shyrokyne.

                            Originally posted by Bacon View Post
                            Certainly, you may laugh at my lack of military knowledge/expertise (congratulations to you, sir) but this does not take away from the fact that the images you and I have both seen are abnormally upbeat,
                            I have seen no such "upbeat" images. I've seen a lot of 1000 yard stares images but positive? Asov and Donbass vets are lamented they are giving up a strong position.

                            Originally posted by Bacon View Post
                            given the fact that Shyrokyne’s demilitarization is supposed to have spelled Mariupol’s doomsday. There are stronger forces afoot, it seems, and again I am left confused as to how you can possibly be so assured that Kiev is so sorely in the wrong when Ukrainians themselves (and here on this forum, a woman based out of Ukraine) are confident of victory.
                            Really? You can't read? The Ukrainian Asov Regiment and the Donbass Battalions (actual Ukrainian combat veteran fighters) are screaming bloody hell at abandoning Shyrokyne and you took the word of a woman who didn't even know that Kiev signed away Shyrokyne.

                            And I am not the one who continually quote Western Generals who say that the Ukrainians can't win without Western weapons. So, you either can't read, fail in grammar, or just plain ignorant.
                            Chimo

                            Comment


                            • http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/05/wo...n-ukraine.html

                              hahaha, now that the front has stabilized, reports of rebel infighting. frankly the Cossacks were stupid to put in with the rebels; did they -really- think they'd have more autonomy in Putin's puppet fiefdom than with Ukraine?
                              There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                                I still haven't figured out why they would want western equipment anyway. Or at least nothing above small arms.
                                Instead of hoping for Javelins they should be refurbishing their own ATMs.
                                We are doing so; please see KOMBAT and KONUS as well the Stugna-P.

                                Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                                Why ask for a weapon that you don't know how to employ?
                                How long does it take to learn how to use a javelin? A week or a year? Ukraine has never asked for system that takes months or years to use and indeed a supply of Challenger 2's or Leopard 2's or even Leclerc MBTs would cost more than what can produced here for next to nothing and take to long for the troops to learn to how to use effectively.

                                Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                                Same with the mobile counter battery/counter mortar radar. Its US equipment. It is designed to spit out a location for US/NATO artillery to pounce on. You guys don't even use the same circle as us.
                                It will be slower, once you learn not to abandon them on the battlefield, than using the equipment you already have.
                                You ask only because you want US/NATO troops fighting your battles for you. Because you know that our equipment also brings our troops.
                                Nobody has asked you to fight Ukraine's battles on it's behalf but you have no trouble supplying these weapons to Iraqis - deep in bed with Iran and are amazed when the kit turns up in Yemmen, from which you have pulled out of... But then possibly you think this Muscovite aggression is about just Ukraine? They grabbed 1.5km of the gas pipeline going through Georgia by unilaterally moving the South Ossetian border recently or does that mean nothing to you? With respect I have been studying these problems in detail for some time - well since the Russo - Georgian War in several different roles and geographical areas. Ukraine can win it's own battles - but if you were to "give us the tools (and) we'll finish the job" to borrow from Churchill.


                                Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                                This freaking make no Ukrainian military sense. Both sides are obligated to withdraw heavy artillery 15 kms from Shyrokyne. BIG FREAKING PROBLEM. History has shown that the rebels can move much faster than the Ukrainians. They ran circles around the Ukrainians.
                                Not strictly correct. The hill overlooking Shyrokyne is not regarded as Shyrokyne and the Mykolayiv Marine Battalion patrol the town and have observation posts east of Shyrokyne.

                                Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                                Shyrokyne was won. You should have pushed out from there. Not 3 or 4 kms but 20-30 miles and push the rebels back from threating Mariupol.
                                In which direction should we advance? 30 miles due east would put them on the other side of the border in 'Russia'. The real threat in Sektor M is considered (rightly in my view) to be around Volnovakha, north of Mariupol on the H20 road to Donetsk. If any 'land bridge' operation is to be attempted Mariupol would be bypassed to the north and then cut off at the rear. This is why I could never agree to your "march 10,000 men into Mariupol" type ideas. 10,000 isolated troops in Mariupol would suffer resupply problems after some time and at least some of them would be better held in reserve to cut the lines of any advance and break back through to Mariupol, which is already well fortified.

                                Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                                Asov and Donbass vets are lamented they are giving up a strong position. The Ukrainian Asov Regiment and the Donbass Battalions (actual Ukrainian combat veteran fighters) are screaming bloody hell at abandoning Shyrokyne and you took the word of a woman who didn't even know that Kiev signed away Shyrokyne.
                                Certainly Azov, Donbass as well the Chechen Battalions (Dudayev Battalion, and Sheik Mansur Battalion - which are not all Chechens or even Moslems) are all well experienced now but have been at the front for a long time. They need alot of refitting and patching up. In general all Ukrainian forces are 100% more experienced now than in May last year - not hard since most had never experienced combat then. Even Lt-Gen Ben Hodges (US Forces Commander Europe) said "We've learned a lot from the Ukrainians". Do you not practice rotations normally? I am 110% sure that Mariupol is secure barring a Muscovite breach of Minsk 2.

                                The other reason we cannot advance 20-30 miles of course is political... Due to the insanity of Minsk 2 and the pressure put on Ukrainian politico's by Ukraine's 'allies' the UAF is not permitted to liberate it's own sovereign territory - even, as in the case of Shyrokyno - when the aggressor is forced to withdraw. Ukraine must be seen to be whiter than white and fulfill all it's Minsk 2 obligations no matter what the Muscovites do - and of course they broke Minsk 2 within days of it being signed. It is said that those whom the Gods wish to destroy they first send mad and to many in Ukraine this seems is regarded as insanity. Basically Ukrainian forces cannot be seen to break Minsk 2 but should the Muscovites break this laughable 'ceasefire' (which has not occurred for an instant) then all deals are off so the only permissible plan that can work is for a strong counter attack once they have broken Minsk 2. They must come first and then we can bash them. Insane perhaps but that's the conditions forced on Ukraine by it's 'allies'.

                                astralis, the article you note is about essentially about Moscow getting more control over it's proxies (they pay them all after all). It is also factually mistaken on a historical point; "Under the czars, the Don Cossacks ruled as Russian vassals over the Wild Field, an area encompassing parts of southern Russia and eastern Ukraine."

                                No they didn't, east of the Dnieper were the Zaporozhian Cossacks - led by Khmelnytsky in his rebellion against the Polish - Lithuanian Commonwealth. Entirely different from the Don Cossacks - though they shared a similar culture etc. Don Cossacks were for most part (apart from various uprisings) loyal to Moscow. The Zaporozhian Cossacks were more fiercely independent and allied to the Criminean Khanate (the Tartars). The Zaporozhian Sich (which literally mean 'cut' but which also means 'polity' in a loose sense) only lost complete autonomy following the First Partition of Poland - Lithuania which. Point is that the Zaporozhian (or 'Ukrainian') Cossacks more fought with the Don Cossacks and to this day the presence of Don Cossacks east of the Dnieper in Ukraine is regarded as an act of betrayal by the todays Ukrainian cossacks. No love lost between the two groups and lots of bad blood.

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