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  • #91
    You do realise you're arguing against a former officer in the most dangerous of professions in the Canadian armed forces whose job it was to learn and apply lessons past and present to the task at hand? It's yours, not his, responsibility to understand the context in which it is delivered and the forum as a whole will decide the intellectual merit of what you have to offer or determine whether your argument is valid.

    Specifically the argument of Wests duty to respond has been invoked unsuccessfully through various arguments that started with the Budapest Moratorium. These arguments when met with fait accompli have been sidestepped. It is not the responsibility of users to cite these arguments and the sidestepping through various threads these arguments have encountered. It isn't worth the time. Re-invigorating the debate in ignorance of these past discussions might satisfy your want for western policy to more forcefully engage, however it will not change the view of those who have already devoted time and insight to previous discussions. On face value it might constitute a 'win/loose' situation on a very local page which you so evidently seem to base the content of your debate entry on, but it does not address these real questions posed. As such it offers no new information to change any calculus.

    At the end of the day both of you will have to have a think about what it actually means to be arguing against officers and defence professionals of various armed forces.
    Ego Numquam

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Bacon View Post
      **Idiot**, but hey, you’re trying so hard, have yourself a cookie for your efforts.
      You just keep doing it to yourself.

      Originally posted by Bacon View Post
      Canada was invaded in your lifetime? Surely, you’re right off your rocker. You’re incredibly foolish to assert that the Americans qualify as invaders (in the here and now) of Canada or that Canada’s domestic situation is anywhere near comparable to Ukraine’s. Irrespective of anything that has ever been said in this discussion, to say ‘I KNOW WHAT IT’S LIKE TO BE INVADED, I’VE BEEN INVADED JUST LIKE YOU” is plain ignorant.
      And can't even be bothered to pick up a history book.

      If you want a comparison, I've seen combat and I know neither of you did.

      Originally posted by Bacon View Post
      Interesting. So what exactly did you mean back in the very beginning of the discussion, when you said:

      “IT’S A FREAKIN’ CIVIL WAR!”
      Did the French involvement in the American Revolution stopped it from being a Civil War? Gee, don't even know your own history.

      Originally posted by Bacon View Post
      You’re very fortunate that the relevant thread is not available to browse through as this will permit you to forever deny what was or was not said, but I do recall your spewing “civil war” bullshit earlier, and I am quite sure that Russia and Ukraine are to this day regarded internationally as independent entities. Are you absolutely certain that it is not you who is twisting words in order to save face? With an argument trajectory like that it's almost like Snapper has taught you things that you've conveniently inserted into your argument where you find it appropriate.
      I've seen Civil War. I was in the middle of one. Can you say the same?

      The presence of a RussianArmy HQ does NOT negate the FACTS (WHICH CLEARLY YOU HAVE NONE) THAT IT IS THE UKRAINIANS doing most of the fighting and DYING on BOTH SIDES. By Kiev's own estimates, some 8 thousand Russians are fighting in the Ukraines. The rebels numbered 20,000. Can't even do basic math. Gee, you're really showing you're that stupid.

      Originally posted by Bacon View Post
      As well, for future reference, does not a rebuttal make.
      Clearly defines your stupidity when you don't know what it means.

      Originally posted by Bacon View Post
      If that is the very best you can do (and evidently it is) you clearly have lost.
      Only in your dreams. By the way, you better change your sheets. They're wet.
      Chimo

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      • #93
        Oh, btw, you do know you have been labelled a chew toy by this forum, don't you?

        Even too stupid to realize that this forum doesn't think much of your garbage.
        Chimo

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        • #94
          Originally posted by OOE2_test View Post
          Why are you answering for Bacon?
          Nothing to do with Bacon or eggs for that matter; I speak only for myself but you said:

          Originally posted by OOE2_test View Post
          I AIN'T GOING TO BOTHER WITH THE REST OF YOUR BULLSHIT!
          I merely replied to that.

          Originally posted by OOE2_test View Post
          My country got invaded 3 times and we repulsed the invader 3 times. And each time, we fought tooth and nail to repulse the Americans, at times losing entire regiments and generals of worth (Brock). You want to try again?
          You mean British Canada in 1812 I presume since you refer to Brock, a time when Britain had 100 ships of the line compared to the US zero... Nothing to do with Tecumseh and the native population either?

          Originally posted by OOE2_test View Post
          So, what is the Ukraine's fucking excuse?
          That wasn't my point; "I gave you historical examples, left righ, and centre, about peoples who fought against the Russians and won against the Russians with far less resources then the Ukrainians". You gave one example; Chechnya where Russia won. I gave YOU three examples where they lost so you were presumably 'exagerating' with regard to "left right and centre" as well as 'winning'.

          Originally posted by OOE2_test View Post
          I AM DAMNED SERIOUS! NO CF PERSONNEL WILL EVER SEE COMBAT IN THE UKRAINES. MY PM'S OWN FUCKING WORDS!!!!!!

          NICE TRY TRYING TO TWIST CANADA GOING INTO COMBAT FOR THE UKRAINES!!! FREAKING LIAR!!!!!
          Again since you have been clearly disproved to distort the point. To remind you of words "I don't doubt you've met senior officers at parties ... and while you got their personal views, you never got the official position." Well I showed you your own Government's "official position" but now I said to be trying to "TWIST CANADA GOING INTO COMBAT FOR THE UKRAINES"? Not at all. I was merely replying to your earlier comment by showing you the "official position" but from this you now attempt to distort my responce into something I never even implied let alone said.

          Originally posted by OOE2_test View Post
          HORSE PUCKEY! NO OPEN PROTEST. ACTUALLY PARADES OF CELEBRATION. Not by desire but a simpel google. For every one of your "Crimea did not join Russia" videos, I can find 20 "Crimean celebration" parades. Numbers are against you whether you admit or not.

          Who the hell cares? A deputy. One man. Vs a parade!

          I don't give a flying freak about Putin!!!!! Crimea threw parades and parties, not an insurgency!!!!!! Get a freaking clue!!!!
          So Putin giving orders for military occupation of Feb 20, the fact that the Deputies were forced to call the 'referendum' at the point of the gun, the fact that it was illegal under the Ukrainian Constitution or that armed men were in the voting stations and no independent observers allowed in makes it legal because you saw some people appearing to have party? Of course you are welcome to your own opinion, I am happy your Government has more sense.

          Originally posted by OOE2_test View Post
          FACT! I'M THE ONE WHO TOLD YOU THE RUSSIAN OPERATIONAL INVOLVEMENT! I'M THE ONE WHO TOLD YOU IT WAS A RUSSIAN ARMY HQ WHO ORDERED THE PINCER MOVEMENT AT DONBASS!

          SO GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE! YOU KNEW SHIT ALL!
          Colonel there has been a Russian HQ in Donbass since last May or do you think it is only once you have declared something to be true that others may 'know' what was bleedin' obvious for a year? Who was the SBU intercepting messages from? You think they'd send Buks into 'rebel' control? How would the "miners and taxi drivers" of Donbass (to quote Putin) operate the systems they have? I have been in the occupied area myself before.

          Now forgive me but to quote your own words "ain't going to bother with the rest of your bullsh*t"; but I mean it. I wish you well.

          Originally posted by Mihais View Post
          As for the Russian army being a threat to anyone,that's a joke.It's just another instrument of the Russian diplomatic attempts to bring influence in the East.And it's just influence,not control,let alone occupation.
          So not a threat to Romania if Ukraine is gone and possibly forced into service against you if the Moldovan regions are occupied? You are aware of recent demonstrations in Moldova regarding reunion with Romania? But as a whole międzymorze/Intermarium has to be considered as a viable option don't you think?

          Is it a 'Russian civil war'? Only if you accept the Muscovite doctrine that Ukraine was always part of Muscovy which is historically incorrect. However certainly there are Russians citizens now fighting for Ukraine - 30+ in Azov Battalion alone. The majority of the volunteer units are Russian speakers I would say. I probably speak better Russian than Ukrainian.

          Originally posted by Chunder View Post
          Specifically the argument of Wests duty to respond has been invoked unsuccessfully through various arguments that started with the Budapest Moratorium.
          I would merely say that the West has responded - and in the normal mistaken manner. Chamberlain is dead long live Hollande and Merkel! "Peace in our time" again vis a vis Minsk 2 is nothing but Sudetenland again.

          Originally posted by Chunder View Post
          At the end of the day both of you will have to have a think about what it actually means to be arguing against officers and defence professionals of various armed forces.
          And you will have to think about those who are on the ground, understand the historical and current situation and visit the front frequently. Essentially I would say that the Colonel is mistaking his past experience for the current war. No two battles, let alone wars, are the same. Each have different terrains and politics etc and while I am sure others, including yourself perhaps, have studied these matters in your own sphere in your time, those on the ground understand the current situation, and all it's intricacies and "what if" scenarios, better than those sitting a continent and half away. It is not intended disrespectfuly.

          To try to move the conversation on...my most serious concern is that they will not come further as that would allow Ukraine the chance to perhaps defeat them and this would be a critical blow to the Putin regime, but try to use the occupied area of Donbass as an 'open wound' and force 'federalism' upon Ukraine where 'federalism' means occupied Donbass dictates to the rest of Ukraine on trade treaties and defence treaties etc... So having got a firm grip of Sudetenland/Donbass the real question is whether tanks, politics, gas blackmail, bribery etc they will try most to subvert Ukraine - and the west in general.

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          • #95
            No Sara,I don't believe the few btn's that goes for the Russian army these days is a threat to Moldova or Romania,if there is diplomatic support of the west and the morale is strong.The improvisation that was Moldovan army in 92 kept the Russian army at bay.
            As for repercusions if Ukraine falls it goes like this.The moment Odessa falls we're at war,regardless if the political leadership or the NATO allies aknowledge this or not.Even if they decide to abandon Moldova,we're still at war,because the fall of Odessa means the Russians have already taken the decision to escalate.

            Little Russians fighting Great Russians makes it a russian civil war and it's the third of its kind in 100 years.

            As of Ukraine,I think I made myself clear in the past.I have the greatest admiration for those that stopped Strelkov with almost nothing.For that matter I also like Strelkov.Those few tens of thousands that now serve on the frontline.I think they'll be good leaders for their country if they win.But don't tell me the rest of the 30+ millions still under Kiev give a damn,because they don't.The Bosnian Serb army,recruited of ~1.5 millions could have smashed both Ukrainian and the Russians in Donbas at the same time.You don't have a million men under arms.Economy etc.. is BS.You don't fight for your life when a damned accountant tells you.
            One may think that those few worthy men deserve support,even if for selfish reasons.From my pov they do.Limited support you're getting and you'll keep receiving.But if you ask expect the bureaucrats of the West to make Starship Troopers a reality then you're deluding yourself.The Ukrainian warriors are as much of a threat to the West as they are to the East.
            Those who know don't speak
            He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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            • #96
              At the end of the day you'll have to realise that Chamberlain was a product of the great depression, and that on the basics of it with the RN controlling the SLOCS, there really wasn't that much in it for the British. Winding forward, you can easily transpose those circumstances to Hollande and Merkel.

              The Chechans fought so bloody the Russians took off the gloves and the Europeans complained, Russias response was to basically ignore them. This will happen again if the Europeans cant manufacture an adhoc ceasefire, because they won't commit. If they won't commit, there is NO point the USA or anyone else committing.

              It's been this way since day dot. It's been pointed out since day dot. Real unanswered questions here Snapper.
              Ego Numquam

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              • #97
                http://rt.com/news/268723-ukraine-right-sector-war/

                “We demand that the Poroshenko regime reject the Minsk agreements, and renew the offensive military operations aimed at liberating occupied territories [in eastern Ukraine],” the statement published on the party’s website reads.
                It also urged Poroshenko “to reshuffle personnel in the Defense Ministry and the Army, to fairly punish state criminals of the [former President Viktor] Yanukovich regime, to make real steps in the fight with corruption and to change the oligarchical orientation of the government to a national [one].”

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                • #98
                  http://rt.com/news/268723-ukraine-right-sector-war/

                  “We demand that the Poroshenko regime reject the Minsk agreements, and renew the offensive military operations aimed at liberating occupied territories [in eastern Ukraine],” the statement published on the party’s website reads.
                  It also urged Poroshenko “to reshuffle personnel in the Defense Ministry and the Army, to fairly punish state criminals of the [former President Viktor] Yanukovich regime, to make real steps in the fight with corruption and to change the oligarchical orientation of the government to a national [one].”

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by snapper View Post
                    Essentially I would say that the Colonel is mistaking his past experience for the current war. No two battles, let alone wars, are the same. Each have different terrains and politics etc and while I am sure others, including yourself perhaps, have studied these matters in your own sphere in your time, those on the ground understand the current situation, and all it's intricacies and "what if" scenarios, better than those sitting a continent and half away. It is not intended disrespectfuly.
                    So you know more than a combat engineer LCol with with 20+ years of combat experience. Well, you and Bacon are the experts of WAB!!!

                    Mud is mud! Ukrainian mud is no different than Canadian mud!!!

                    BTW, Bacon, please respond. Everybody is laughing at you!
                    Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 16 Jul 15,, 02:44.
                    Chimo

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                    • Sara,

                      I am going to ask you this! STOP WITH YOUR RESEARCH FOR MINSKAYA!

                      We know all we need to know. She died for her country she loved. We don't need to know anything more, She was a beautiful person with insight and knowledge I had wished to explore. She had insight to imaginary time that I wished she could have explained to me.

                      Looking back, I was the one who critcized the Ukraines. I was the one on WAB who put Kiev to shame ... and she put my words to shame ... and made me proud that I have known her.

                      She died proud. That is all we need to know.

                      Thank you for your efforts.
                      Chimo

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                      • Yay, WAB is back

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                        • One year ago today MH17 was shot out of the sky.

                          I don't seem to be able to pictures or videos at present but have a look at these:

                          Lifenews claiming first that the 'separatists' shot down a Ukrainian AN-26, then accusing Ukraine of shooting down MH17; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjUpRD6yMYg
                          Igor Girkin's ('Strelkov') VK claim to have shot down an Ukrainian plane (later removed); https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CKE4rn2UwAA_6up.jpg:large
                          The last air traffic controller log between Dniepro (Ukraine), Rostov (Russia) and MH17; https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CKEqFX3UEAAQgWP.jpg

                          RIP

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                          • Just in case anyone was in doubt about allied military thinking in regard to arming Ukraine General Joseph Dunford, the new US Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff,
                            said at the Senate Armed Services Committee last month "Russia presents the greatest threat to our national security... If you look at their behavior, it's nothing short of alarming." Asked if the US should provide lethal arms to Ukraine, Dunford said that from a military standpoint, it would be a "reasonable" response. Frankly, without that kind of support, they are not going to be able to defend themselves against Russian aggression," Dunford said.

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                            • Again, support is the not the issue. It's a freaking matter of will. There should right now be 5 defensive lines at Mariupol. There is 2 and maybe a 3rd that is half way done. Within the same timeframe, Stalin managed to have 3 defensive belts at Kursk, each belt with their own fall back positions ten times more complex than Mariupol today. Hell, Kiev won Shyrokyne and now proceed to give it up instead of manning it forward, pushing out. Smacks of Khe Sanh, left, right, and centre. Shyrokyne should have been kept. It's the front door to Mariupol.

                              Kiev's #1 problem is damned laziness. ATGMs ain't going to save Kiev. The shovel backed by elbows and assholes are.
                              Chimo

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                              • Shyrokyno is still held by Ukrainian forces and is being fortifed and dug in as southern perimeter outside the existing defencive lines.

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