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Thread: EEU = Soviet Lite

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by OOE2_test View Post
    Let them. They will die faster than a Ukrainian woman having a period. For freak sakes, don't try to cloud stupid idiotic dumb numbers to me. You can throw entire T-72 Divisions at NATO and we won't blink an eye. Not today. Not tomorrow. So, don't give me that crap we ain't ready. We can kill their entire army without nukes.
    The means is not the will.

    Quote Originally Posted by OOE2_test View Post
    Then, you have met mutineers subject to war crimes under both their national laws and the Geneva Conventions. No NATO country is at war in the Ukraines and therefore, are not legal combatants. Don't try to use that I know so and so line. I know you didn't.
    With respect, as S2 says, Sir I was referring to Polish training officers, who like the British and US are engaged with the military training programs, some have volunteered for combat also on their own part. There are others from other countries also, some official some may be breaking laws international or within their own home countries.

    Quote Originally Posted by OOE2_test View Post
    The British strategy was to get the Americans into the war! What the hell you think Lend-Lease was?
    As you know I was referring to Italy/Greece - Balkans (as the Brits would have wanted) - before Normandy rather than the all in Normandy 1942/3 wishes of some US Staff at the time, resources and materiel being less of a problem for the US than Britain, but you know this already. When you have limited resources comparative to the enemy you must use them to the greatest effect; hit the weak spots and entrap the enemy. Sure it still means many die and no war is 'clean' but when it is not possible to defeat him head to head you have to fight smart to conserve your main strength for an opportunity to inflict a major defeat.

    But if you want the real culprits who let this war happen you have to look elsewhere... The Lenningrad/St. Petersburg history was known, the murders documented, but still to this day leaders of the so called 'free world' pander to a criminal (see this article for example; http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/a...me-rule-russia). It was known back in 2008 yet still Ukrainians must fight and die daily so others in Europe don't get threatened by 'toy' T72s. This war was entirely preventable and many warned of it but still you blame Ukrainian people for wanting reform yet now they are at war? When the West starts examining the reasons for it's 'negligence' I will be happy, until then either put up or shut up and let Ukraine fight it's own war for it's own land, because after all this is NOT your or anyone elses business right? I am confident Ukraine will win but I wish to disillusion you regarding the deeper meanings of this war; it is everyone's businness; za nasza i wasza wolnosc/for our freedom and yours.

    Andrey: If it takes 30yrs I will stand with you then but I pray and hope to play my very small part in making it come sooner. Ilya Yashin may have come of age, there's always hope as long as people like yourself remain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    The means is not the will.
    Horse Puckey! You were the ones who threw more tanks in Dunbass than in the UK and Germany! 200 planes within 30 minutes of the Russian border. The entire Polish army ready to fight. That's more than enough capability.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    With respect, as S2 says, Sir I was referring to Polish training officers, who like the British and US are engaged with the military training programs, some have volunteered for combat also on their own part.
    Then they are mutineers! Subject to military justice and NATO military justice is uniformed across the entire alliance. It allows a British Officer to charge an American Officer with USMJ jsutice. So, don't give me that bullshit they're volunteering. They want to volunteer. They have to resign their uniforms first!

    That is what it means to be in NATO! We are not the Ukraines who allow any mercenary to do as he pleases.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    As you know I was referring to Italy/Greece - Balkans (as the Brits would have wanted) - before Normandy rather than the all in Normandy 1942/3 wishes of some US Staff at the time, resources and materiel being less of a problem for the US than Britain, but you know this already.
    Oh get off it! The Balkans were not important enough. Same as the Ukraines as today. Even the US with her might and resources cared less about the Balkans and frankly, neither did Hitler.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    When you have limited resources comparative to the enemy you must use them to the greatest effect; hit the weak spots and entrap the enemy.
    Explain Eygpt.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Sure it still means many die and no war is 'clean' but when it is not possible to defeat him head to head you have to fight smart to conserve your main strength for an opportunity to inflict a major defeat.
    There is one and only one way to inflict a major defeat. Blast the other guy to smithereens. Make him bleed until he can't bleed no more.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    But if you want the real culprits who let this war happen you have to look elsewhere... The Lenningrad/St. Petersburg history was known, the murders documented, but still to this day leaders of the so called 'free world' pander to a criminal (see this article for example; http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/a...me-rule-russia).
    He's a rich criminal selling gas and oil vs your criminals selling nothing. Guess what?

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    It was known back in 2008 yet still Ukrainians must fight and die daily so others in Europe don't get threatened by 'toy' T72s.
    Europe stopped being threatened by T-72s since Saddam left Kuwait. Drop this line now. It ain't impressing no one. You're throwing a bunch of baby seals to a shark. In case you don't get it. T-72s are the baby seals. NATO is the shark.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    This war was entirely preventable and many warned of it but still you blame Ukrainian people for wanting reform yet now they are at war?
    Horse puckey. Your own people got you into this mess. Not us. Not the Russians. This is your own mess of your own creation. The Russians came in when their boy was losing but make no mistake, their boy was one of yours. He was elected by your people. DON'T YOU DARE BLAME US FOR YOUR OWN FREAKING VOTE!

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    When the West starts examining the reasons for it's 'negligence' I will be happy, until then either put up or shut up and let Ukraine fight it's own war for it's own land, because after all this is NOT your or anyone elses business right? I am confident Ukraine will win but I wish to disillusion you regarding the deeper meanings of this war; it is everyone's businness; za nasza i wasza wolnosc/for our freedom and yours.
    No, it is not. You're still shifting the blame and the responsibility to us. Since when did a people needed a foreign bank to tell them what they can or cannot do to protect their own homes.

    Win your freaking war and see how fast the banks come back. You're just throwing excuses after excuses to why you are not committed to total war. Chechnya did far more than you with far less.

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    Horse Puckey! You were the ones who threw more tanks in Dunbass than in the UK and Germany! 200 planes within 30 minutes of the Russian border. The entire Polish army ready to fight. That's more than enough capability.
    I’d like to reiterate: How is it you understand the capabilities of Ukraine better than an individual immediately connected to the conflict in Ukraine?



    Then they are mutineers! Subject to military justice and NATO military justice is uniformed across the entire alliance. It allows a British Officer to charge an American Officer with USMJ jsutice. So, don't give me that bullshit they're volunteering. They want to volunteer. They have to resign their uniforms first!

    That is what it means to be in NATO! We are not the Ukraines who allow any mercenary to do as he pleases.
    I took the liberty of doing the research you so graciously requested, it appears as though the North Atlantic Treaty has no hard and fast rules for military intervention. According to the “official text”, Article 1 states:
    “ …[the Parties are] to refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force in any manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations.”
    While the Article does say “refrain”, it does not immediately threaten to punish the use of force, the Treaty only asks to avoid it where possible. But! Just to be sure, what does the United Nations say?
    In the Charter of United Nations, Chapter VII, Article 52, states:
    “Nothing precludes the existence of regional arrangements or agencies for dealing with such matters relating to the maintenance of international peace and security, provided [they] are consistent with the Purposes and Principles of the United Nations”

    Article 2 in Purposes and Principles states:
    • “All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.”
    With regard to “Action with Respect to Threats to the Peace, Breaches of the Peace, and Acts of Aggression” (Article VII):

    Article 51 (ahem ahem: This, my good sir, is where it gets good. Are you taking notes?)

    “Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self defense if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations”

    And would you look at that? Ukraine is a member of the United Nations! Clearly, the Charter and the North Atlantic Treaty stipulate the kind of allowances that would permit snapper to have met with Polish training officers in a perfectly legal setting! Who’da thunk it, she actually knows what she’s talking about.

    Care to try again, my good Sir? This research you suggested has not worked out in your favour, particularly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon View Post
    I’d like to reiterate: How is it you understand the capabilities of Ukraine better than an individual immediately connected to the conflict in Ukraine?
    I'm a soldier. She is not. The horse puckey about the T-72 should tell you that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon View Post
    I took the liberty of doing the research you so graciously requested, it appears as though the North Atlantic Treaty has no hard and fast rules for military intervention.
    You can't even freaking read, you stupid idiot!!!!

    I stated the Geneva Conventions, the Law of Armed Combat, and in both Snapper and my case, The Queen's Rules and Orders!!!! I also gave you the term legal and illegal combattant! Are you so freaking stupid that you don't understand simple English?

    Guess what? You freaking are that stupid!

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    What's more. The GC, the Haque are the laws of the land in all NATO countries. Further more, we have the Queens Rules and Orders in the UK (whom Snapper claims to work for) and Canada and the USMJ in the US and all other countries have similar Codes of Military Justice. All of them states that you are not allow to initiate violence without a legal order.

    Guess what the bloody fuck Snapper is suggesting! Mutiny!

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    I hate no edit fucntions.

    I also gave you the term Mutineers and you were too freaking stupid to look that up! Dumbass!

  7. #67
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    Bacon (and to an extent, Sara),

    Keep in mind that when The Colonel speaks he does so from a place that is very well anchored in deep knowledge and understanding of the issues spanning decades.

    He, like myself, S-2 and others, served in Germany during and through the end fo the Cold War into the Balkans.

    When he speaks derisively of the T-72...its a metaphor for all Soviet...oops....Russian armor. Good units, and by the 1980s, ALL NATO units were good units, held no fear of the T-72s/T-64s of GSFG. Its was more of a discussion of how deep our counterattacks were going to make it into Poland and Czechoslovakia.

    And 30 years of conflict worldwide has shown our trust in our gear was not misplaced.

    And many of us are still engaged professionally in the business.

    Oh, and as for NATO personnel subject to other members military legal systems.

    They are called status of forces agreements (SOFAs). My US brigade was part fo a German armored division. I served as an LNO to a German unit. I was subject to both US Army regulations as well as Bundeswehr regulations per the US/German SOFA.

    Finally, as a moderator, because of the balkyness of the WAB as we struggle to get back on our feet, I have not been able to check if you have ever gone to the new members thread and introduceed yourself. It is something we prefer new members do here.

    You would also learn that old and distinguished members, like OOE (aka The Colonel) are allowed a LOT more freeway than newcomers.

    WSith that said, please watch you tone of argument.
    “We had been hopelessly labouring to plough waste lands; to make nationality grow in a place full of the certainty of God… Among the tribes our creed could be only like the desert grass – a beautiful swift seeming of spring; which, after a day’s heat, fell dusty.”
    ― T.E. Lawrence, Seven Pillars of Wisdom: A Triumph

  8. #68
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    Oh the horror.

    Col, what Ukraine is doing now is preciselly what the Brits did. They can't neither win nor lose on their own. You keep referring to the Chechens, but at the end of the day they lost. Many, if not most on the European continent don't have the stomachs for that.

    Sara, I am sad to say, but the Col had pointed it many times it's up to UA to win it and there will be no helping hand. Keeping that illusion only prolongs what he suggested from the start, pick up a fight you can win and commit yourself to it. Noone will help you in that, but maybe God. Yes, it's hard, but what's the alternative?
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Col, what Ukraine is doing now is preciselly what the Brits did. They can't neither win nor lose on their own.
    The Brits would have won the war had Hitler been stupid enough to do SEA LION. Unfortunately, he wasn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    You keep referring to the Chechens, but at the end of the day they lost.
    Because they got greedy and stupid, doing Dagestan, Belsan, and Moscow Theatre. They won their independence and then proceed to lose it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Many, if not most on the European continent don't have the stomachs for that.
    I strongly disagree. People can turn around in a heartbeat to be monsters. Look at the backlash against the Muslims now. It can easily be Russians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Col, what Ukraine is doing now is preciselly what the Brits did. They can't neither win nor lose on their own.
    Thinking more, I dispute that. The Battles of Britain, Atlantic, and Eygpt were mostly British Empire. Their victories ensured that the British Empire would survived untouched. It's over the rest of Europe that would be in dispute.

    And those victories got nothing to do with fighting smart. Montgomery was no maneuver general. He was a grind them up General. So there goes Sara's claims of British fighting smart. They were fighting just as dirty as every body else.

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    I will just leave this here, will reply later when on computer.
    http://www.stripes.com/blogs/stripes...fight-1.283782
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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    If I may interject, my take away from this is that Ukrainians have to fight for Ukraine. No one else can. Others could join the fight, but in the end, Ukrainians need to have a legitimate claim to victory in order to keep the victory.

    Think about it, does it make sense for the Russians to respect the nation of Ukraine if the border was fought for and protected by a bunch of western Europeans? If I were the Russians, I would not. Ukraine would just be a little brat with a big bully brother holding his hands so his candy doesn't get taken away.

    If Ukrainians fought Russians tooth and nail, suffer heavy casualties, yet inflict heavy casualties on the Russians as well, then the claim of resistance and victory would be legitimate. Ukrainians would have earned it.

    Western Europeans come and go, but Ukrainians will always be in Ukraine. Ukrainians must fight their own battles.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    Bacon (and to an extent, Sara),Keep in mind that when The Colonel speaks he does so from a place that is very well anchored in deep knowledge and understanding of the issues spanning decades.
    Sir, I am well aware of the Colonel's experience and the efforts of many other forum members in the long 'frozen conflict' that was the 'Cold War' that resulted in an almost bloodless victory in Europe. Coming from a family forced to flee Eastern Poland thanks the Molotov Ribbentrop Pact, a Poland and whole Central Europe that remained under dictatorships directed from Moscow for 45yrs I can assure you my gratitude for your long vigilance. When the Polish Government in exile, which had continued going and had kept all the official insignia and seals of state in London, returned to Warsaw in 1991 Lech Walesa "For the first time in 50 yrs the Polish President has come home". Could you imagine what that would mean to you if the same happened to your nation? Poland never gave up but they could not have done it without those who manned the western wall. My gratitude, and that of all the Central European nations you played some small part in liberating is sincere and will never be forgotten in our histories.

    My points are mostly about the present though. There are real contradictions and to my mind, seeing things first hand, clear misunderstandings here. gunnut says, as others,

    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    Ukrainians have to fight for Ukraine
    Well who do you think has been? Sure there are some volunteers from Chechnya, Croatia, Poland, Serbia (on both sides), Romania, Belarus (on both sides), even Swedes, some Canadian Ukrainians, one Swede I know of and no doubt assorted others. Hell the who 'EuroMaidan' protest was stated by a Facebook post by a guy called Mustafa Nayem and he's an Afghan Ukrainian. I do not know if all of them quit the services of their native nations before they came here to volunteer; if not then the Colonel is certainly right that they face a court martial. As far as I understand only the Belarusians and Serbs fighting for Ukraine fear to return home but Ukrainian citizenship is open to all volunteers who are willing to risk their lives for Ukraine. Should copious inquiries be undertaken and often skilled professional soldiers if AWOL from say Croatia be sent home to face Court Martial? Perhaps so though it would clearly be it would contrary to Ukraine's immeadiate needs to do so but not doing so is the original sin "Subject to military justice and NATO military justice is uniformed across the entire alliance" that the Colonel seems so strongly to object to... The French Foreign Legion have been taking AWOL soldiers, criminals et al for years and they are not regarded as breaching any international military code of conduct. None of them are here for the money as the pay is negligible and only payable if they become Ukrainian citizens - this is no mecenary paradise - but because they want to be for reasons of their own.

    To return to the point that "This is Ukraine's war" etc... So many on this forum argue this but if this is the case what is Minsk 2 which is perhaps more binding on Ukraine than on Russia? Why did Merkel and Hollande get involved and impose this injustice such that Ukrainian forces cannot advance to liberate their own occupied sovereign land? No Ukraine has to wait for the build up and allow it to continue in peace so they can push again at their will. But you say this is Ukraine's war exclusively? This is a clear contradiction. Even John Kerry, in Moscow three days ago (why???) warned Ukraine against retaking Donetsk airport as it would threaten Minsk 2. In Obama speak; "No you can't and I am playing golf".

    This also get's to my point about the lack of political will in the West. Tell me which International Treaty the Putin regime has NOT broken? Budapest Memorundum clearly, Helsinki Accords obviously even the founding charter of the UN as well as the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty (1987) and what do they do? Ask him to sign another piece of paper in Minsk... Just forget about all the rest? Frankly the West is out appeasing Chamberlain. The EU is a mirage of unity, the Obama administration incompetant in foreign policy (the whole Syria mess needs a long inquest but supplying weapons to Iranian backed Shia militia's in Iraq and being surprised when they turn up in Yemen is clearly self defeating), Cameron is a wimp and the Germans already comprimised. So in many ways it would damn well help if it were exclusively a Ukrainian war without feeble minded Western appeasers interfering. And sure the T72BM3 is no match for a Leopard 2 or a Challenger 2 etc but of course Ukraine does not have them. I have seen with my own eyes a burnt out T-72 which had taken at least 6 previous hits none of which got through. The T91s as you are in some ways easier. The new T14 'Armata' has not been seen, yet, in Ukraine. Virtually every other part of their renewed arsenal though has at some point been in Ukraine or the Iskanders in Kaliningrad or perhaps you do not recall them threatening to target Denmark? The Putin regimes defence spending continues to increase despite coming recession and RUB devaluation.

    The Colonel says this lack of will can change fast and to some extent I would say it already has changed due to Ukraine, not just in NATO Rapid Reaction plans but in EU single energy market and LNG terminals etc etc It needs to change in alot more ways. I know for a fact that positive vetting at EU level is nigh on non existent and with respect to the Colonels and other members military experience this is not a military issue as such but one which I do know a small bit. This is not just about Ukraine and if you do not understand that frankly you are refusing to see. It is about dividing Europe and breaking the transatlantic alliance. Divide and conquer. Let us hope that this change of unified will remained unified and stop damn well appeasing the aggressor.

    But "go on and fight them" you will again say, while saying "sorry no javelins" (they're all in Iraq/Iran/Yemen) and the Colonel suggests a 'battle of annihilation'. I mean no disrespect when I say from my point of view sitting here in Ukraine a 'battle of annihilitation' seems insane from here on the ground because with inferior overall numbers and inferior weapons any 'battle of annihilation' will only weaken the inferior side (Ukraine) further. This is the policy of Verdunne all over again without any guarantee of whether it will break the Putin regime's means to fight. As I said before Ukraine has to learn to fight smart and set a traps. And with respect to the Cold Warriors and Peace Keepers, Gentlemen you never fought the Russians. "I have been toe to toe with monsters that you cannot imagime" or something similar I recall the Colonel once saying - a great phrase among his many quotable sayings, but Ukraine is engaged with a greater monster and still some are fooled by it's propaganda.

    Then there's some who would advise Ukraine 'max out' it's defence budget - to say 20% of GDP - but seriously do you think the IMF and other donors would permit this? Or that the reduction in the deficit be kept on course without another revolution? But it's Ukraine's war? Again it is not entirely that simple.

    Finally this is an argument that Putin would love!

    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    Think about it, does it make sense for the Russians to respect the nation of Ukraine if the border was fought for and protected by a bunch of western Europeans? If I were the Russians, I would not. Ukraine would just be a little brat with a big bully brother holding his hands so his candy doesn't get taken away.

    If Ukrainians fought Russians tooth and nail, suffer heavy casualties, yet inflict heavy casualties on the Russians as well, then the claim of resistance and victory would be legitimate. Ukrainians would have earned it.

    Western Europeans come and go, but Ukrainians will always be in Ukraine. Ukrainians must fight their own battles
    Same could be said for any NATO member; Estonia, Poland etc... Would Russia 'respect' Poland if it fought for itself? It did and won in 1920 but in 1939 the Russians did a deal with Hitler. Some respect. United we stand, divided we fall, which is precisely why their whole method is directed toward division from "all Ukrainian are Nazi's" to funding the French Front National and hosting fascists in St Petersburg. But no... let it float on by... exclusively Ukrainian problem it is, in which Western appeasers dictate Ukraine's ability to regain it own sovereign territory.

    P.S Colonel Sir, If you wish to raise the British vs the US strategies during WW2 in the history forums I shall be happy to discuss the topic at greater length time permitting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Sir, I am well aware of the Colonel's experience and the efforts of many other forum members in the long 'frozen conflict' that was the 'Cold War' that resulted in an almost bloodless victory in Europe.
    Stop kissing ass. It's disgusting.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Coming from a family forced to flee Eastern Poland thanks the Molotov Ribbentrop Pact, a Poland and whole Central Europe that remained under dictatorships directed from Moscow for 45yrs I can assure you my gratitude for your long vigilance. When the Polish Government in exile, which had continued going and had kept all the official insignia and seals of state in London, returned to Warsaw in 1991 Lech Walesa "For the first time in 50 yrs the Polish President has come home". Could you imagine what that would mean to you if the same happened to your nation? Poland never gave up but they could not have done it without those who manned the western wall. My gratitude, and that of all the Central European nations you played some small part in liberating is sincere and will never be forgotten in our histories.
    What has any of this to do with the military situation in the Ukraines? Nothing.
    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Well who do you think has been? Sure there are some volunteers from Chechnya, Croatia, Poland, Serbia (on both sides), Romania, Belarus (on both sides), even Swedes, some Canadian Ukrainians, one Swede I know of and no doubt assorted others. Hell the who 'EuroMaidan' protest was stated by a Facebook post by a guy called Mustafa Nayem and he's an Afghan Ukrainian. I do not know if all of them quit the services of their native nations before they came here to volunteer; if not then the Colonel is certainly right that they face a court martial. As far as I understand only the Belarusians and Serbs fighting for Ukraine fear to return home but Ukrainian citizenship is open to all volunteers who are willing to risk their lives for Ukraine. Should copious inquiries be undertaken and often skilled professional soldiers if AWOL from say Croatia be sent home to face Court Martial? Perhaps so though it would clearly be it would contrary to Ukraine's immeadiate needs to do so but not doing so is the original sin "Subject to military justice and NATO military justice is uniformed across the entire alliance" that the Colonel seems so strongly to object to... The French Foreign Legion have been taking AWOL soldiers, criminals et al for years and they are not regarded as breaching any international military code of conduct. None of them are here for the money as the pay is negligible and only payable if they become Ukrainian citizens - this is no mecenary paradise - but because they want to be for reasons of their own.
    Horse puckey! There are NO NATO uniforms fighting in the Ukraines. PERIOD! You can twisted this to anyway you want but the simple fact is that you are freaking wrong! Period! You tried to twist everything to say that NATO is already in combat against the Russians when I call you out left, right, and centre. Now, you are back tracking!

    Stop being obtuse. It is beneath you.

    Poland, Romainia, the Baltics are NOT coming to your rescue! Period! Don't try to twist this around to individuals. We call them mercenaries. Mercenaries, by definition, are NOT national armies. Get IT BACON, YOU FREAKING IDIOT!!! POLAND DID NOT SEND POLISH SOLDIERS TO FIGHT THE RUSSIANS!!! CAN YOU GET THIS THROUGH YOUR STUPID HEAD!!!! POLAND DOES NOT WANT TO ENGAGE IN COMBAT AGAINST THE RUSSIANS!!!!! SARA IS TWISTING THE FREAKING TRUTH AND YOU ARE STUPID ENOUGH TO FALL FOR IT!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    To return to the point that "This is Ukraine's war" etc... So many on this forum argue this but if this is the case what is Minsk 2 which is perhaps more binding on Ukraine than on Russia? Why did Merkel and Hollande get involved and impose this injustice such that Ukrainian forces cannot advance to liberate their own occupied sovereign land?
    GET THE FREAK OFF OF THIS. NATO OFFICERS, Officers I trust with my life, stated that the Ukrainians started as many fights as the Russians!!!! Minsk 2 was a breather. I said it from the start. Don't you dare pretend it is a peace treaty or even a truce!

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    No Ukraine has to wait for the build up and allow it to continue in peace so they can push again at their will. But you say this is Ukraine's war exclusively? This is a clear contradiction. Even John Kerry, in Moscow three days ago (why???) warned Ukraine against retaking Donetsk airport as it would threaten Minsk 2. In Obama speak; "No you can't and I am playing golf".
    Not our problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    This also get's to my point about the lack of political will in the West. Tell me which International Treaty the Putin regime has NOT broken?
    START (all of them), CWC, BWC, MRTC. NPT, NSG, CTBT, and these are just Arms Control, you want me to find others>


    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Budapest Memorundum clearly,
    Nothing in teh Memorundum about bribing your own people to choose differently. Get it through your head. Crimea CHOSED! There is NOT ONE observation out there to suggest that the majority of the Crimeans did not want to join with Russia. Yeah, Russia did it dirty and underhanded but the Crimean numbers work against you, not for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Helsinki Accords obviously even the founding charter of the UN as well as the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty (1987) and what do they do?
    BULL FUCKING SHIT! SHOW ME THE RUSSIANS HAVE RE-ARMED IRBMS WITH NUKES!!!!!! HELL, SHOW ME RUSSIAN IRBMS!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Ask him to sign another piece of paper in Minsk... Just forget about all the rest? Frankly the West is out appeasing Chamberlain.
    STOP THIS SHIT RIGHT NOW! THE UKRAINES SIGNED THIS ALSO! AND WE ALL KNOW THIS WAS A FREAKING BREATHER FOR KIEV ALSO!


    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    The EU is a mirage of unity, the Obama administration incompetant in foreign policy (the whole Syria mess needs a long inquest but supplying weapons to Iranian backed Shia militia's in Iraq and being surprised when they turn up in Yemen is clearly self defeating), Cameron is a wimp and the Germans already comprimised. So in many ways it would damn well help if it were exclusively a Ukrainian war without feeble minded Western appeasers interfering. And sure the T72BM3 is no match for a Leopard 2 or a Challenger 2 etc but of course Ukraine does not have them. I have seen with my own eyes a burnt out T-72 which had taken at least 6 previous hits none of which got through. The T91s as you are in some ways easier. The new T14 'Armata' has not been seen, yet, in Ukraine. Virtually every other part of their renewed arsenal though has at some point been in Ukraine or the Iskanders in Kaliningrad or perhaps you do not recall them threatening to target Denmark? The Putin regimes defence spending continues to increase despite coming recession and RUB devaluation.
    SARA, SHUT THE HELL UP! YOU ARE NO MILITARY EXPERT. STOP PRETENDING TO BE ONE! T-72s? I was going to kill them with land mines!!!!!! By the time of the Kuwait War, no Soviet Tank Regiment was going to breach my minefields!

    Good God! You are hurting your own freaking arguement. You know crap and you're trying to tell us that we don't know our jobs!

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    The Colonel says this lack of will can change fast and to some extent I would say it already has changed due to Ukraine, not just in NATO Rapid Reaction plans but in EU single energy market and LNG terminals etc etc It needs to change in alot more ways. I know for a fact that positive vetting at EU level is nigh on non existent and with respect to the Colonels and other members military experience this is not a military issue as such but one which I do know a small bit. This is not just about Ukraine and if you do not understand that frankly you are refusing to see. It is about dividing Europe and breaking the transatlantic alliance. Divide and conquer. Let us hope that this change of unified will remained unified and stop damn well appeasing the aggressor.
    No, Sara. The issue is the Ukrainian people is not willing to fight for the Ukraines! Period

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    But "go on and fight them" you will again say, while saying "sorry no javelins" (they're all in Iraq/Iran/Yemen) and the Colonel suggests a 'battle of annihilation'. I mean no disrespect when I say from my point of view sitting here in Ukraine a 'battle of annihilitation' seems insane from here on the ground because with inferior overall numbers and inferior weapons any 'battle of annihilation' will only weaken the inferior side (Ukraine) further. This is the policy of Verdunne all over again without any guarantee of whether it will break the Putin regime's means to fight. As I said before Ukraine has to learn to fight smart and set a traps. And with respect to the Cold Warriors and Peace Keepers, Gentlemen you never fought the Russians.
    EXCUSE THE FUCKING ME????????????????? WE WERE READY TO TOSS OVER 120,000 NUCLEAR WARHEADS! GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR FUCKING ASS AND DON'T YOU DARE LECTURE US ABOUT FIGHTING WWIII!!!

    I AIN'T GOING TO BOTHER WITH THE REST OF YOUR BULLSHIT!

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by OOE2_test View Post
    Stop kissing ass. It's disgusting.
    How would you feel if Canada were occupied for centuries by a foreign invader?

    Quote Originally Posted by OOE2_test View Post
    What has any of this to do with the military situation in the Ukraines? Nothing.Horse puckey! There are NO NATO uniforms fighting in the Ukraines. PERIOD! You can twisted this to anyway you want but the simple fact is that you are freaking wrong! Period! You tried to twist everything to say that NATO is already in combat against the Russians when I call you out left, right, and centre. Now, you are back tracking!

    Poland, Romainia, the Baltics are NOT coming to your rescue! Period! Don't try to twist this around to individuals. We call them mercenaries. Mercenaries, by definition, are NOT national armies. Get IT BACON, YOU FREAKING IDIOT!!! POLAND DID NOT SEND POLISH SOLDIERS TO FIGHT THE RUSSIANS!!! CAN YOU GET THIS THROUGH YOUR STUPID HEAD!!!! POLAND DOES NOT WANT TO ENGAGE IN COMBAT AGAINST THE RUSSIANS!!!!! SARA IS TWISTING THE FREAKING TRUTH AND YOU ARE STUPID ENOUGH TO FALL FOR IT!!!!
    Please do not try to twist my words. I said there are volunteers from various countries.

    Quote Originally Posted by OOE2_test View Post
    GET THE FREAK OFF OF THIS. NATO OFFICERS, Officers I trust with my life, stated that the Ukrainians started as many fights as the Russians!!!! Minsk 2 was a breather. I said it from the start. Don't you dare pretend it is a peace treaty or even a truce!
    Certainly there was no truce but that is not my point. You say "it you're damn war, get on with it" and yet it is clearly not or Ukraine would have hit them again before Debaltseve. But no - Ukraine has to play good boy while the bad boy breaches Minsk 2 right after it was signed and has never stopped since.

    Quote Originally Posted by OOE2_test View Post
    Not our problem.
    Great because none of you know fuck all about it anyway so bugger off and let us let us win the damn thing maybe?

    Quote Originally Posted by OOE2_test View Post
    START (all of them), CWC, BWC, MRTC. NPT, NSG, CTBT, and these are just Arms Control, you want me to find others>
    Helsinki no big deal to you then?

    Quote Originally Posted by OOE2_test View Post
    Nothing in teh Memorundum about bribing your own people to choose differently. Get it through your head. Crimea CHOSED! There is NOT ONE observation out there to suggest that the majority of the Crimeans did not want to join with Russia. Yeah, Russia did it dirty and underhanded but the Crimean numbers work against you, not for you.
    So Colonel Girkin/'Strelkov' was lying when he said he had force the Crimean deputies to vote and the fact that OSCE or any other internationally recognised observers were allowed in to observe the vote with armed men outside the voting booths - we have the pictures - that only 37% of the populace voted and former criminal who in the previous election got less than 3% won it all makes it fair. If this is what you believe Sir - and not even Serbia recognises the Crimean annexation, I simply am astounded.

    Quote Originally Posted by OOE2_test View Post
    BULL FUCKING SHIT! SHOW ME THE RUSSIANS HAVE RE-ARMED IRBMS WITH NUKES!!!!!! HELL, SHOW ME RUSSIAN IRBMS!!!!!
    Allow me to remind you of the US allegations last year; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-28538387

    Quote Originally Posted by OOE2_test View Post
    STOP THIS SHIT RIGHT NOW! THE UKRAINES SIGNED THIS ALSO! AND WE ALL KNOW THIS WAS A FREAKING BREATHER FOR KIEV ALSO!
    Why would El Chocko sign it? Because Ukraine needs Western support so in the one hand Ukraine is held back and in the other you say go get 'em because it not our problem...

    Quote Originally Posted by OOE2_test View Post
    SARA, SHUT THE HELL UP! YOU ARE NO MILITARY EXPERT. STOP PRETENDING TO BE ONE! T-72s? I was going to kill them with land mines!!!!!! By the time of the Kuwait War, no Soviet Tank Regiment was going to breach my minefields!
    Ask some of your own people that have actually visited the war area here. I am not lying; I have seen what I have seen. I am not trying to educate you in your profession Sir but tell you that a Ukrainian T64 has real trouble penetrating the armour of Russian T72BM3. You need the double explosion round as it has been explained to me, first to splinter the armour and second to penetrate.

    Quote Originally Posted by OOE2_test View Post
    No, Sara. The issue is the Ukrainian people is not willing to fight for the Ukraines! Period
    As I said in some ways it would be better if it were but Ukraine is told "No you can't x, y, z" while Putin laughs at you.

    Quote Originally Posted by OOE2_test View Post
    EXCUSE THE FUCKING ME????????????????? WE WERE READY TO TOSS OVER 120,000 NUCLEAR WARHEADS! GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR FUCKING ASS AND DON'T YOU DARE LECTURE US ABOUT FIGHTING WWIII!!!

    I AIN'T GOING TO BOTHER WITH THE REST OF YOUR BULLSHIT!
    Then with your permission, I assume it's needed, I shall henceforth disregard any comment you direct toward me as frankly I find you rude in the extreme and in this instance lacking of knowledge. My best wishes.

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