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Thread: EEU = Soviet Lite

  1. #46

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    Andrey,

    "But actions in Chechnya were mere guerilla warfare on Chechen side and anti-partisan war on the Russian."

    Not our narrative or, I'd suggest, as minimalist as possible by description. You had complete motor rifle divisions committed to battle across the breadth of Chechnya. Chechen forces engaged in open combat with great frequency. Urban battles fought within Grozny and elsewhere bore much closer resemblance to W.W.II than Belfast-Londonderry-

    "Chechens weren't afraid of tanks and BMPs. They assigned groups of RPG gunners to fire volleys at the lead and trail vehicles. Once they were destroyed, the others were picked off one-by-one. The Russian forces lost 20 of 26 tanks, 102 of 120 BMPs, and 6 of 6 ZSU-23s in the first three day's fighting. Chechens chose firing positions high enough or low enough to stay out of the fields of fire of tank and BMP weapons. Russian conscript Infantry simply refused to dismount and often died in their BMP without ever firing a shot. Russian elite Infantry did much better, but didn't coordinate well with armored vehicles initially. An initial problem was that there were not enough dismounts. Many of the BMPs initially destroyed had few or no dismounts on board. The Chechens used mobile tactics and "let the situation do the organizing" while the Russians relied more on brute strength."

    Russian Lessons Learned From The Battles For Grozny-FMSO April, 2000

    "...The situation is reversed for Ukraine, there are partisans of DNR and there is Ukrainian army fighting them."

    Don't forget the Ukrainian nat'l guard (volunteers), Chechens (and other) volunteers/mercenaries on both sides, and a (not so) modest contingent of Russian combat units making their presence felt from time to time. Moreover, as vicious as this war has so far proven, there's a goodly space to cover yet before the horrors of Chechnya are broached.

    Entirely possible, however.
    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Some fight in Ukraine now.
    You are deliberately avoiding the point that the Russian Army was beaten before and beaten badly.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Sir you are missing my point;
    No, I'm not. You're still trying to pass the buck for someone else to do the job for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    when a regime tears up and/or lies or distorts it's actions regarding it's own citizens and international law the nation that it is picking on at present is the not the only nation threatened.
    And we're prepared for it. Doesn't mean that we have to save the Ukraines.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Poland, Romania, the Baltic States all understand the implied menace - we've all been here before and recognise the signs from our histories.
    And none of them wants to fight the Russians for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Yet only the Ukrainian army is engaged in the field and has been for nearly a year.
    It's still in the field and did not required Western intervention to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    As you know, despite what I considered at the time a bad plan, back last August Ukraine within an ace of ending the war in Donbass. Now due to Minsk 2 Ukrainian forces are obliged not to advance in order to liberate the occupied areas of their own sovereign territory. I do not want to see Ukrainians and Russians killing each other, as I recall you saying some time ago, but I do want to win and am confident of Ukraine's ability to do so.
    I know of no way of winning a war nicely. The sooner you and your people realize this, the faster you get out of this mess.

  3. #48
    Senior Contributor Andrey Egorov's Avatar
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    Steve, the scale of conflict was huge, a full-blown war, where one side achieved by suicide bombing what the other achieved by artillery barrage. Russian losses was due to both poor commandment and lack of training for troops. Still there was no distinctive front line and the same Chechens were pretending to be civilians one day and cutting heads the other.

    There is no significant amount of Ukrainians living in Donetsk region now loyal to Kiev enough to fight a partisan war, and also no place to hide Ukrainian army unit bigger than recon team without being noticed. That's the main difference between Russia/Chechnya and Ukraine/DNR situations, and it renders the whole idea of repeating Chechnya impossible. What truly possible is Gaza sector scenario, with new HAMAS rising on ruins of Donetsk and Lugansk.
    We're so bad, we're even bad at it

  4. #49
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    The Battles of Grozny decided the wars in each and every case. Those were conventional fights. Not insurgent hit and runs. Up to and including an attempted breakout by the Chechens through a minefield and got plastered by artillery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OOE2_test View Post
    And we're prepared for it. Doesn't mean that we have to save the Ukraines.
    Yea... Thanks for the limited sanctions and Minsk 2. With respect Sir the West ain't half "ready" or it would be looking at it's own failings already. Where's Schroeder? There are more tanks in occupied Donbass than all of Britain and Germany combined. Ready? Like an ostrich with it's head in the sand. Ukraine is "a far away country of which we know little" to borrow Chamberlain's phrase.

    Quote Originally Posted by OOE2_test View Post
    And none of them wants to fight the Russians for you.
    Perhaps you know more than I but in this case Sir I must doubt it. Last month the Polish President (Komorowski) spoke in the Ukrainian Rada; he ended his speech saying "Za naszą i waszą wolność!" (For your freedom and ours), a kind of Polish mantra during the partitions upto the Soviet occupation particularly among the exiles. In 1920 Piłsudski said "There can be no independent Poland without an independent Ukraine". With respect Sir it is my history more than yours, my family has fought and died for centuries against Turks, Tartars and Muscovite regimes, red and white, and it is I who am on the ground now.

    Quote Originally Posted by OOE2_test View Post
    I know of no way of winning a war nicely. The sooner you and your people realize this, the faster you get out of this mess.
    So I have seen and damn horrid it is which is why I would not wish more death and maiming on either Ukrainian patriots or misguided vessels of Putin's revanchist ambitions. But if I may summarise my difference of opinion with your view I would say that you are "thinking American" whereas I and many others now in Ukraine are "thinking British". Ukraine does not have the resources, or manpower of Russia, so must 'fight smart' and tactically rather than sending it's comparatively limited resources into "battle(s) of annihilation" to use your words. The British subtlety of strategy as opposed to the US 'throw everything at them' mentality is required because of the relative disparity in resources. Set traps and retreat if necessary to lure the enemy into a greater trap. Fight smart not out bleed them.

    I'd rather parade 1000 Russian prisoners to the TV cameras than sacrifice however many Ukrainian lives to parade 1000 Russian corpses. Then perhaps the Muscovites themselves will understand the nature of their ruling regime and no matter what victories or defeats come that en fin is the only way to end this. Ukraine is not fighting the Russian people - I have Russian cousins myself and no desire to see them dead - but against a deeply criminal and corrupt regime in Moscow that has resorted to aggression as a means of sustaining it's control of it's own people. A war is won not by 'outbleeding' the enemy, which is almost impossible in this case where Ukraine has less resources, but by breaking their will to fight on. Fight British not American.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Yea... Thanks for the limited sanctions and Minsk 2. With respect Sir the West ain't half "ready" or it would be looking at it's own failings already. Where's Schroeder? There are more tanks in occupied Donbass than all of Britain and Germany combined. Ready? Like an ostrich with it's head in the sand. Ukraine is "a far away country of which we know little" to borrow Chamberlain's phrase.
    Like I'm scared of a bunch of T-72s.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Perhaps you know more than I but in this case Sir I must doubt it. Last month the Polish President (Komorowski) spoke in the Ukrainian Rada; he ended his speech saying "Za naszą i waszą wolność!" (For your freedom and ours), a kind of Polish mantra during the partitions upto the Soviet occupation particularly among the exiles. In 1920 Piłsudski said "There can be no independent Poland without an independent Ukraine". With respect Sir it is my history more than yours, my family has fought and died for centuries against Turks, Tartars and Muscovite regimes, red and white, and it is I who am on the ground now.
    There is NOT one single Polish, Romainian, nor Baltic uniform in combat anywhere in the Ukraines. And no amount of your propaganda is going to change that one single bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    So I have seen and damn horrid it is which is why I would not wish more death and maiming on either Ukrainian patriots or misguided vessels of Putin's revanchist ambitions. But if I may summarise my difference of opinion with your view I would say that you are "thinking American" whereas I and many others now in Ukraine are "thinking British". Ukraine does not have the resources, or manpower of Russia, so must 'fight smart' and tactically rather than sending it's comparatively limited resources into "battle(s) of annihilation" to use your words. The British subtlety of strategy as opposed to the US 'throw everything at them' mentality is required because of the relative disparity in resources. Set traps and retreat if necessary to lure the enemy into a greater trap. Fight smart not out bleed them.

    I'd rather parade 1000 Russian prisoners to the TV cameras than sacrifice however many Ukrainian lives to parade 1000 Russian corpses. Then perhaps the Muscovites themselves will understand the nature of their ruling regime and no matter what victories or defeats come that en fin is the only way to end this. Ukraine is not fighting the Russian people - I have Russian cousins myself and no desire to see them dead - but against a deeply criminal and corrupt regime in Moscow that has resorted to aggression as a means of sustaining it's control of it's own people. A war is won not by 'outbleeding' the enemy, which is almost impossible in this case where Ukraine has less resources, but by breaking their will to fight on. Fight British not American.
    You know neither. I'm Canadian and we are far more in tune with the British than the Americans but in either case, there is no such thing as a clean war. And you are delusional if you think you can win this without heavy casualties.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by OOE2_test View Post
    Like I'm scared of a bunch of T-72s.
    Who said scared? God willing they will not visit you.

    Quote Originally Posted by OOE2_test View Post
    There is NOT one single Polish, Romainian, nor Baltic uniform in combat anywhere in the Ukraines. And no amount of your propaganda is going to change that one single bit.
    Factually incorrect Sir. I have met them.

    Quote Originally Posted by OOE2_test View Post
    You know neither. I'm Canadian and we are far more in tune with the British than the Americans but in either case, there is no such thing as a clean war. And you are delusional if you think you can win this without heavy casualties.
    Colonel I would agree that no war is 'clean' but it's about where you apply personnel and resources for greatest effect to break the enemy's will to continue. My past and Anglo American understanding is irrelevant but I use the British as opposed to the US strategy toward WW2 as an example of my point.

  8. #53
    Senior Contributor Andrey Egorov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    perhaps the Muscovites themselves will understand the nature of their ruling regime and no matter what victories or defeats come that en fin is the only way to end this
    You know, we have no trouble understanding that. The problem is many people (mostly police, army and related industry workers) here like it, and the other part is too small and disconnected bearing the sins of reformers of 90s as their own. For vast majority here 'liberal' equals 'thief', and 'human rights' mean nothing at all - "we lived without these western whims before, we can live without them ever after".
    Non-government organizations who take money from abroad are spies, and those who don't - dumb spies working for free.

    It is going to take another thirty years of degradation before democracy evolves again in Russia, and then it will be corrupted shortly after again, and so on...
    We're so bad, we're even bad at it

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Who said scared? God willing they will not visit you.
    Let them. They will die faster than a Ukrainian woman having a period. For freak sakes, don't try to cloud stupid idiotic dumb numbers to me. You can throw entire T-72 Divisions at NATO and we won't blink an eye. Not today. Not tomorrow. So, don't give me that crap we ain't ready. We can kill their entire army without nukes.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Factually incorrect Sir. I have met them.
    Then, you have met mutineers subject to war crimes under both their national laws and the Geneva Conventions. No NATO country is at war in the Ukraines and therefore, are not legal combatants. Don't try to use that I know so and so line. I know you didn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Colonel I would agree that no war is 'clean' but it's about where you apply personnel and resources for greatest effect to break the enemy's will to continue. My past and Anglo American understanding is irrelevant but I use the British as opposed to the US strategy toward WW2 as an example of my point.
    The British strategy was to get the Americans into the war! What the hell you think Lend-Lease was?

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by OOE2_test View Post
    Like I'm scared of a bunch of T-72s.

    There is NOT one single Polish, Romainian, nor Baltic uniform in combat anywhere in the Ukraines. And no amount of your propaganda is going to change that one single bit.

    You know neither. I'm Canadian and we are far more in tune with the British than the Americans but in either case, there is no such thing as a clean war. And you are delusional if you think you can win this without heavy casualties.


    I find it interesting that as a Canadian situated in Canada you feel you have a better understanding of the situation in Ukraine than a native Slav who has repeated several times over that she is actively engaged in the Ukrainian effort while stationed in the country of Ukraine. Explain to me where your superior knowledge base comes from? Do not take that as an insult to your Canadian-ness, I myself have roots in Calgary, however, I question your self-assuredness. Against a woman who in this particular area clearly has access to more complete and accurate information than you ever will, and therefore undoubtedly has a greater understanding of the conflict in Ukraine than you could ever hope to have, I am curious to hear how you can “know” so much more than she evidently does.
    I very, very eagerly await your reply Sir.

    Love and hugs,

    Bacon

  11. #56

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    Andrey,

    "You know, we have no trouble understanding that…"

    As poignant, profound and pessimistic post as I've ever read at WAB. Deserving of "like" many times over but for the tears.
    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by OOE2_test View Post
    Like I'm scared of a bunch of T-72s.

    There is NOT one single Polish, Romainian, nor Baltic uniform in combat anywhere in the Ukraines. And no amount of your propaganda is going to change that one single bit.

    You know neither. I'm Canadian and we are far more in tune with the British than the Americans but in either case, there is no such thing as a clean war. And you are delusional if you think you can win this without heavy casualties.


    I find it interesting that as a Canadian situated in Canada you feel you have a better understanding of the situation in Ukraine than a native Slav who has repeated several times over that she is actively engaged in the Ukrainian effort while stationed in the country of Ukraine. Explain to me where your superior knowledge base comes from? Do not take that as an insult to your Canadian-ness, I myself have roots in Calgary, however, I question your self-assuredness. Against a woman who in this particular area clearly has access to more complete and accurate information than you ever will, and therefore undoubtedly has a greater understanding of the conflict in Ukraine than you could ever hope to have, I am curious to hear how you can “know” so much more than she evidently does.
    I very, very eagerly await your reply Sir.

    Love and hugs,

    Bacon

  13. #58

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    "No NATO country is at war in the Ukraines and therefore, are not legal combatants. Don't try to use that I know so and so line. I know you didn't."

    Colonel,

    It's my guess Sara refers to training contingents in-country from the 173rd Airborne along with advisors/observors from adjacent interested nations like Poland and Rumania.

    In country? Yes- visibly so in one significant instance.

    Engaged with the enemy? No.
    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon View Post
    I find it interesting that as a Canadian situated in Canada you feel you have a better understanding of the situation in Ukraine than a native Slav who has repeated several times over that she is actively engaged in the Ukrainian effort while stationed in the country of Ukraine.
    She does not represent any NATO country nor the view of any NATO country and she has consistently misrepresented specific military and national viewpoints.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon View Post
    Explain to me where your superior knowledge base comes from?
    The Geneva Convetions. The Law of Armed Combat. The Queen's Rules and Orders to which all her suggestions is a complete violation of both national law and international law. No soldier is allowed to disobey a legal order and the legal order is that we are NOT at war in the Ukraines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon View Post
    Do not take that as an insult to your Canadian-ness, I myself have roots in Calgary, however, I question your self-assuredness. Against a woman who in this particular area clearly has access to more complete and accurate information than you ever will,
    Bullshit. I have proven her wrong on many occasions. Including now that the tanka toy T-72 is a threat to NATO but you think different because you don't do your freaking research.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon View Post
    and therefore undoubtedly has a greater understanding of the conflict in Ukraine than you could ever hope to have, I am curious to hear how you can “know” so much more than she evidently does.
    Because she misrepresents the facts! Period.


    Quote Originally Posted by S2 View Post
    "No NATO country is at war in the Ukraines and therefore, are not legal combatants. Don't try to use that I know so and so line. I know you didn't."

    Colonel,

    It's my guess Sara refers to training contingents in-country from the 173rd Airborne along with advisors/observors from adjacent interested nations like Poland and Rumania.

    In country? Yes- visibly so in one significant instance.

    Engaged with the enemy? No.
    I specifically stated that there are NATO uniforms engaged in combat with the enemy. She emphatically stated that this was factually incorrect. She is either lying or in denial. Either way, her statement is factually incorrect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OOE2_test View Post
    I specifically stated that there are [u\NO[/u] NATO uniforms engaged in combat with the enemy. She emphatically stated that this was factually incorrect. She is either lying or in denial. Either way, her statement is factually incorrect.
    Correction in bold underline

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