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  • Originally posted by S2 View Post
    Versus,

    "How did you come to that conclusion?"

    Your comment quoted in bold is a rather gross stereotype. Luxembourg and Canada object. So too many others. Most notably the very cold corpses of Stalin and Mao.

    They both had forgotten more about brutality than any run-of-the-mill western despot could imagine in his/her wildest dreams. That's just me, though.
    Than you didn't understand my answer. You said that it is a big deal, what Russia did, invading a sovereign nation, taking a part of its territory and aiding secession movement and all that contributed to the outbreak of bloody war. What do you think, would happen if Russia didn't acted?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Versus View Post
      Because there is no "East" and the bias is artificial. Russia is an "attempt of the West" and reading those historical books, I see now that it always has been like that.
      'Russia' as we call the lands and nations currently occupied by what was formerly the Mucovite Principality is an invention of the Tsars and the Soviet Union; the Tsars at least had the honesty to call themselves "Tsar of all the Rus's" but from this basic blurring of the truth seeking to promote Muscovy as a 'Rus state' for a purpose, though the origin of the Rus state belonged solely to what is now Ukraine and Belarus (Volodymr the Great, who was first baptised, probably never head of Moscow and certainly never went there). To claim you are 'Tsar of all the Rus' is of course a territorial rights claim - "I own (or should own) the original Rus states of Kyiv and Novigrad" (where the Rurikid dynasty started). It was not until the time of Ivan lll that the Muscovite Princes started to refer to themselves as 'Grand Prince of all the Rus' and by that time the Romanov's had replaced a cadet branch of the Rurikid's in Moscow which negates any ancestral claim on the other Rurikid lands outside Muscovy. During the Soviet times the notion distortion of truth was amplified and what the Tsars had previously acknowledged as different Rus states became 'Russia', a supposedly homogenous single ethnic and cultural entity. The Tartars etc were thus an inconvenience standing in the way of 'truth' (to echo JAD's Platonic musings from another thread); truth was 'political' and history could be 'shaped' (or distorted). Thus 'Ukraine is Russia and Crimea a Muscovite equivalent of the remains of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem' (according to Uncle Volya). Nor of course is Putin himself from Muscovy or any Rus land but from St. Petersburg, formerly Swedish land that was annexed following the 'Winter War' in which it is alleged the Swedes (Charles Xll) invaded 'Russia' and were defeated at Poltava... where is Poltava? No doubt had the Soviets been successful in their military 'export of revolution' at the Vistula in 1920 what we know as 'Poland' today and perhaps further West considering Tukhachevsky's ambition to "water my horses at the Rhine" would today consider 'integral parts of Russia'. Total myth and distortion of course but that is the Muscovite way; a state who's real origin is more Mongol (for whom the first Muscovite Princes collected taxes) Golden Horde than 'Rus'.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Versus View Post
        Than you didn't understand my answer. You said that it is a big deal, what Russia did, invading a sovereign nation, taking a part of its territory and aiding secession movement and all that contributed to the outbreak of bloody war. What do you think, would happen if Russia didn't acted?
        An insane hope but perhaps friendship, trade and peace?

        Comment


        • "...What do you think, would happen if Russia didn't acted?"

          If Russia hadn't invaded the Crimea and none of this had happened?

          I think there'd be a lot more money in Moscow and a lot more Russian tourists on Crimean beaches.

          I think NATO would still be struggling with it's relevancy and, therefore, likely girding their loins to do serious battle with those pesky immigrants.

          No sure thing, mind you.

          But that was then and this is now.
          "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
          "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

          Comment


          • Originally posted by S2 View Post
            Your comment quoted in bold is a rather gross stereotype. Luxembourg and Canada object. So too many others. Most notably the very cold corpses of Stalin and Mao.

            They both had forgotten more about brutality than any run-of-the-mill western despot could imagine in his/her wildest dreams. That's just me, though.
            To the Slavs, the Teutonic Knights, Napoleon, and Hitler, were all from the West.
            Chimo

            Comment


            • Originally posted by S2 View Post
              "...What do you think, would happen if Russia didn't acted?"

              If Russia hadn't invaded the Crimea and none of this had happened?

              I think there'd be a lot more money in Moscow and a lot more Russian tourists on Crimean beaches.

              I think NATO would still be struggling with it's relevancy and, therefore, likely girding their loins to do serious battle with those pesky immigrants.

              No sure thing, mind you.

              But that was then and this is now.
              S2, I need you to be completely honest about next question. What is the first thought or emotion, that pops in your mind when you think of Russia?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                To the Slavs, the Teutonic Knights, Napoleon, and Hitler, were all from the West.
                As a Slav, I disagree with that. Ozzies and Kiwies are West, too :)
                No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                Comment


                • The point was that the "West" had monsters on par with Stalin and Mao.
                  Chimo

                  Comment


                  • In which century?
                    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                      In which century?
                      Hitler was Mao's and Stalin's time. The Teutonic Knights were viewed as the same as the Mongols.
                      Chimo

                      Comment


                      • Versus,

                        "What is the first thought or emotion, that pops in your mind when you think of Russia?"

                        The land of missed opportunities.
                        "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                        "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by S2 View Post
                          Versus,

                          "What is the first thought or emotion, that pops in your mind when you think of Russia?"

                          The land of missed opportunities.
                          So, the feeling is negative, in general I mean.
                          Why do you think that they are so unsuccessful in producing thriving society?

                          Comment


                          • "So, the feeling is negative, in general I mean..."

                            The "...feeling..." is not that easily pigeon-holed.

                            "...Why do you think that they are so unsuccessful in producing thriving society?"

                            Because, in short, Russians have never properly organized and motivated their considerable human capital.
                            "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                            "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by S2 View Post
                              "So, the feeling is negative, in general I mean..."

                              The "...feeling..." is not that easily pigeon-holed.

                              "...Why do you think that they are so unsuccessful in producing thriving society?"

                              Because, in short, Russians have never properly organized and motivated their considerable human capital.
                              And why is that?

                              Comment


                              • Your point with all of this?
                                "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                                "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

                                Comment

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