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Thread: Ukraine: After the May 25 Election

  1. #4261
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    BM,

    no kidding. the point I was trying to get at was that Ukraine really has two choices. join the west or keep eastern Ukraine. and the second choice involves outbleeding Russia, to boot.

    Well, it's not quite that simple for Ukraine. To cede the current separatist held areas to Russia doesn't guarantee them any security against further encroachments on Russian speaking areas still under UA control today. The entire point is to undo the Yanukovych coup. Putin won't be able to meddle in Kiev under the current structure, so he has to weaken Ukraine to the point where they've no option but to rely on Russia for support. If Ukraine gives up now, they may as well just bring Yanukovych back and re-install him as president. That would save a lot more time, trouble and blood. (And bad blood)

  2. #4262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Louis View Post
    A certain historical resonance there?
    I would not be surprised if Putin was offered as a sacrificial lamb in the interests of larger Russian interests. Interesting times ahead!

  3. #4263
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    antdawg,

    Well, it's not quite that simple for Ukraine. To cede the current separatist held areas to Russia doesn't guarantee them any security against further encroachments on Russian speaking areas still under UA control today.
    Ukraine doesn't need to give up. they simply need to be able to present an united front against Russia. that's hard to do if the land isn't defensible, either physically or human terrain wise. eastern Ukraine doesn't mean anything if it means accepting Russia's poison pill, because as you said, if that's the end goal you indeed might as well just invite Yanukovych back.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blademaster View Post
    You think Civ is a true representation of what transpires for realpolitik and geopolitics? Sure...
    Well, look at the map and tell me what Putin got so far? Resources. Yep. Civ it is.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  5. #4265
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blademaster View Post
    I would not be surprised if Putin was offered as a sacrificial lamb in the interests of larger Russian interests. Interesting times ahead!
    Just who made the deal?
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  6. #4266
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Just who made the deal?
    His successor Mihail Badguyev. He has plans to turn Russia into Tzarist federation, Badguyssia.
    Last edited by Versus; 12 Mar 15, at 20:15.

  7. #4267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blademaster View Post
    I would not be surprised if Putin was offered as a sacrificial lamb in the interests of larger Russian interests. Interesting times ahead!
    I was thinking of 1953.

  8. #4268
    Senior Contributor Andrey Egorov's Avatar
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    Think of 1801 first

  9. #4269
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    Day of the Oprichnik maybe. Time will tell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Louis View Post
    I was thinking of 1953.
    I was thinking of Nikita Khrushchev after the Cuban Missile Crisis and how he was sidelined.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blademaster View Post
    I was thinking of Nikita Khrushchev after the Cuban Missile Crisis and how he was sidelined.
    What's the old saying? "The Russian tragedy is that they produce too much history for domestic consumption."

  12. #4272
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    All unconfirmed at present.

    Military helicopters are flying over Moscow marked with red stars.
    Witnesses said that one landed in Kremlin, another near National Emergency Management Center, third - Lubyanka 20. (FSB compound).
    Moscow resident said on "Twitter" that helicopters were also seen elsewhere. Also near Moscow - Dmitrovo district.
    Also Polish news channel TVN24 says that there is huge fire burning in "Kitaigorod" shopping center.

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    Ok, Lous, stopped. What you posted is nothing mroe than rumors and at best fireworks, ie an accident. Don't jump to conclusion.
    Chimo

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  15. #4275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blademaster View Post
    I was thinking of Nikita Khrushchev after the Cuban Missile Crisis and how he was sidelined.
    He was sidelined by hardliners who raised the Cold War to their extreme heights. It was by no means a sacrifical lamb to the West.
    Chimo

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