16 inch guns as defensive weapons

[Tamara]

I once talked (at times extensively) with a Viet Nam Brigade Commander. At one time, he described to me a base being overrunned where he told the base commander to fire his howitzers at such a close range to bring the shells down behind the invading force.

So.....was there ever such a doctrine, officially or otherwise, for 16 inch guns?

[dundonrl]

I once talked (at times extensively) with a Viet Nam Brigade Commander. At one time, he described to me a base being overrunned where he told the base commander to fire his howitzers at such a close range to bring the shells down behind the invading force.

So.....was there ever such a doctrine, officially or otherwise, for 16 inch guns?

sounds like a "danger close" mission..

[Officer of Engineers]

16 inch guns on a danger close fire mission? I don't even want to imagine such a thing.

[Blademaster]

16 inch guns on a danger close fire mission? I don't even want to imagine such a thing.

Because I have never seen artillery up close, I am very curious as to how strong the blast a "105 shell can be. 120mm shell? 155mm shell? grenade? mortar? 270mm shell? 310mm shell, 16 inch shell?

How would you feel such a blast and intensity?

[Gun Grape]

Because I have never seen artillery up close, I am very curious as to how strong the blast a "105 shell can be. 120mm shell? 155mm shell? grenade? mortar? 270mm shell? 310mm shell, 16 inch shell?

How would you feel such a blast and intensity?

Up close, Danger close, up close? They can burst your ear drums and make your eyes bleed

[Blademaster]

Up close, Danger close, up close? They can burst your ear drums and make your eyes bleed

What is the blast radius for each type of shell and at what distance will each shell knock you off your feet?

[Gun Grape]

16in would never be used. The idea is to hunker down and saturate your position with shrapnel. The blast damage from the 16in would kill all of your own troops.

The missions that Tam is talking about are referred to as "HE on Me" (Vietnam era) and ICM in the wire (Modern era).

The radio code to call it in was "Broken Arrow". (Surrounded and in danger of being overrun) The senior person alive in the position has to get on the hooks to call it in.

One of 2 uses of that code. The other use denotes a special weapon incident

The idea is not to drop the rounds behind the enemy formation but on top of them. Which if your being overrun also means on top of you.

For battery/Fire base defense back in the day we had the 105mm APERS-T. 8,000 flechettes in each round. It was designed during the Korean war to stop the "Human wave" attacks.

Now with the 155mm and modern fuzes we can do a high angle/low charge "ICM in the wire"

Or a mix of low angle/direct fire HE/Ti and WP/Ti designed to airburst directly in front of the wire. Is that BBQ I smell?

[S2]

Kill radius (50%+ casualties within the radius) is 105mm- 35m, 155mm- 50m. Can't remember the rest and never cared about mortars.

Never heard of ICM in the wire. Uber ballsy given the less-than-uniform dispersion. Not so ballsy once you realize it's only used when, effectively, you've already been neutralized and are about to be overwhelmed. Fcuk it. Fire away.

NOW…Killer Junior? Sweet. HE/MTSQ direct fire usually set at muzzle action. Nastiness…unless you've a 105mm battery nearby with APERS-T (105mm only)? Ultimate nastiness.

[Gun Grape]

I got to practice Killer Jr, Killer Jr with WP and ICM in the wire once.

We were in Israel, far away from range control safety Nazis. Had a Battery commander that always wanted to see it. A BLT Commander that wanted to see all the capabilities we brought to the table. And miles and miles of nothing but desert.

It was Awesome!!!!!!

[citanon]

I got to practice Killer Jr, Killer Jr with WP and ICM in the wire once.

We were in Israel, far away from range control safety Nazis. Had a Battery commander that always wanted to see it. A BLT Commander that wanted to see all the capabilities we brought to the table. And miles and miles of nothing but desert.

It was Awesome!!!!!!

If only there were cell phone cameras back then.

[Monash]

To get an idea of the importance of artillery in a close-up, defensive fire role I suggest reading up on the 'Battle of Long Tan' where you had infantry units in the field attacked by superior numbers, surrounded and in danger of being overrun.

[RustyBattleship]

I don't EVER want to be in that type of fire control. One of my best friends (USMC - Korea) was in an OP that had to call in 105's on their own position. He admitted they took too much time packing up critical gear they did not want to leave behind. They ran as fast as they could downhill and he remembers the rounds hitting and getting closer -- and closer -- and closer.

The next thing he remembered is waking up in a hospital in Japan.

The worst thing of it is his mother was first sent an MIA (Missing In Action). When no transfer record was found that he was sent to Japan for better medical treatment, she was sent a KIA (Killed In Action).

Imagine her (unimaginable) shock when, after he woke up, he was able to call her on the telephone.

By the way, he was also one of our most dedicated and accurate design technicians in the reactivation the Battleships in the 1980's. He was sort of a "dead end" kid from back east, joined the Marine Corps based upon "supervisory" advice, after the war hired on at LBNSY as a welder apprentice, retired as a Naval Architect Technician GS-12 with a Teacher's degree in drafting.

We are still best buddies, share the same heart and spine operations and inspected the Iowa together while she was still up in Benicia. In other words, when it comes to a design problem within his expertise, he gets an immediate phone call from me because I trust him explicity. Thanks to his perfection (and a follow up "what do we do now?" inspection between my wife and I) the after heads of the Iowa on the Main Deck will be open for public use by the end of this month.

Though he lives in Oceanside now, come this Long Beach Veterans Day Parade (of which I'm a committee member) I will pick out a flag on Atlantic Avenue in his name and salute Sgt John Edward Bauer, USMC.

[Officer of Engineers]

How would you feel such a blast and intensity?

Why the hell would I EVER want to feel such a thing?

[Triple C]

Response to S2

Question:

How is a casualty defined in testing? Does it mean detonating a weapon in a cluster of man-sized test targets and counting the number of targets that had received any damage? How is damage measured?

[Blademaster]

Why the hell would I EVER want to feel such a thing?

To fully understand the power of these shells and their capability for killing. To me right now, it is very abstract and statistical. I just have never seen an explosion up close to fully understand or appreciate the magnitude of the power.