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  • US protests French Minstral-class sale to Russia

    US voices 'concerns' at sale of French warships to Russia
    By Nicolas Revise
    Washington (AFP) - US officials voiced concern Thursday at the sale of French warships to Moscow as they mulled tougher sanctions on Russia for the political upheaval triggered by the Ukraine crisis.

    "We have regularly and consistently expressed our concerns about this sale even before we had the latest Russian actions and we will continue to do so," Assistant Secretary for Europe Victoria Nuland told US lawmakers ahead of a visit next week to Washington by French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius.

    The first of two Mistral warships is not due to be delivered to Russia until later this year, and France has so far resisted pressure to suspend the controversial $1.2 billion contract.

    The Mistral is an advanced helicopter assault ship and France's 2011 agreement to sell them to Russia already triggered protests from the United States and other NATO allies.

    The first, named the Vladivostok, is due to be delivered in October, while the second, "The Sebastopol" is to be delivered in 2015 and stationed with the Russian Black Sea Fleet in the Crimea -- annexed by Moscow in March.

    Lawmakers also pushed for France to halt the sale, saying it would be a clear sign of global anger at what they said was the "aggression" of Russian President Vladimir Putin toward Ukraine.

    - 'Not here to bash the French' -

    "If we increase NATO defense spending while joining in a coordinated embargo on all arms sales to Russia, including halting the sale of two French-built Mistral amphibious ships, it will send a clear message to Putin that he will not be allowed to trample on the rights of his neighbors," Congressman Eliot Engel, a Democrat, told the House Foreign Affairs committee.

    "I'm not here to bash the French, but I think this is a time when the French could stop that sale from happening and send a very strong message to the Russians," added Republican lawmaker Adam Kinzinger.

    But French officials reacted with astonishment, denying that US officials had expressed worries over the contract.

    "The United States, like the Europeans, have never voiced privately any concerns about this," a French government official told AFP, asking not to be identified.

    "And we are anyway used to such thundering declarations from her (Nuland). She's a neo-con. And the fact that it comes from her is actually reassuring."


    Fabius is still likely to come under pressure from US officials during his visit to the US capital next week, although he did say in late March that Paris may cancel the Mistral sale if Moscow does not change its policies towards Kiev.

    French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian, however, said that month "the question" of whether to suspend the sale "will arise in October" and that any decision was postponed until then.

    - Sanctions 'scalpel not hammer'-

    The United States and its European Union allies are mulling whether to impose deeper sectoral sanctions on Moscow for its annexation of Ukraine's southern Crimea peninsula and its interference in eastern Ukraine. They would include sanctions against its key banking, energy and mining sectors.

    "The idea here is... to use the scalpel rather than a hammer to focus primarily on high tech and other investment where Russia needs us far more than we need Russia," Nuland said.

    "The approach would also involve taking a sectoral slice across a bunch of different sectors at the same time such that the pain is shared among sectors of the economy and to help keep Europeans together because different ones are vulnerable in different sectors."

    She reminded lawmakers that European nations had closer economic ties with Russia than the United States "so they are far more vulnerable."

    "Whereas Europe trades nine percent with Russia, Russia's trade is 50 percent based in Europe," Nuland told the committee.
    While sanctions are being pursued the US and the EU, France is hellbent on delivery multirole aviation ships to Russia...and hasn't heard a peep about it until now, but this Victoria Nuland woman is a neo-con so they can safely ignore her.

    Shocking I tell you.
    “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

  • #2
    As usual, leave it the French for a questionable military sale.

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    • #3
      If the US so desperately doesn't want France to sell them, they should buy the Russians off the contract and let France sell 'em to the highest agreeable bidder. 1.2 billion Euro has been stated as the price for that by Russia.

      As for questionable military sales... the list of countries any EU member officially can't deliver weapons to is rather short, 17 countries. Belarus, Cote d'Ivoire, Eritrea, Guinea, DR Congo, Liberia, Libya, Myanmar, North Korea, Zimbabwe, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan, Central Africa, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon. Guess what a certain non-EU-member does with some countries on that list.

      I doubt French officials really used the word "neo-con" to describe Nuland though. "american", maybe.

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      • #4
        are ww2 naval mines still around?
        "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" B. Franklin

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        • #5
          I'm not sure this is being accurately reported in that link. The French have made it clear that they are in discussion with the US and EU partners about the sale as part of sanctions - and they can suspend the other 2 platforms without much difficulty.

          You'd probably have a right to feel miffed if you were Israeli and had memories of missile boats and mirages though......
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          • #6
            Off Kronstadt? Plenty.

            Off Vladivostok, i doubt there were ever that many really...

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by omon View Post
              are ww2 naval mines still around?
              Yes, very much so

              https://www.google.com/#q=ww2+naval+mines+still+active

              One was just detonated off the Jersey Shore last year
              “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

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              • #8
                well, it could accidentally run into one on the way to Russian base, theoretically of course,
                "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" B. Franklin

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by omon View Post
                  well, it could accidentally run into one on the way to Russian base, theoretically of course,
                  What are you going to do when those among NATO want to be whores in order to supliment their economy. I say screw them, why protect them, nor give them any kind of support when they do things like this.
                  Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Dreadnought View Post
                    What are you going to do when those among NATO want to be whores in order to supliment their economy. I say screw them, why protect them, nor give them any kind of support when they do things like this.
                    Take a chill pill & dial back the self-righteousness. America arms & has armed regimes infinitely worse than Putin. I'm sure the people of Timor Leste could tell you some stories about how well suited US weapons are to acts of genocide. Not the only ones. Hopefully France comes to some arrangement & pulls the deal, something that will be more likely if US politicians just shut up & let things get worked out behind the scenes. 'Whoring' is pretty widespread when it comes to arms sales and your nation is out there on the street corner with the best of them.
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                    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by kato View Post
                      If the US so desperately doesn't want France to sell them, they should buy the Russians off the contract and let France sell 'em to the highest agreeable bidder. 1.2 billion Euro has been stated as the price for that by Russia.

                      As for questionable military sales... the list of countries any EU member officially can't deliver weapons to is rather short, 17 countries. Belarus, Cote d'Ivoire, Eritrea, Guinea, DR Congo, Liberia, Libya, Myanmar, North Korea, Zimbabwe, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan, Central Africa, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon. Guess what a certain non-EU-member does with some countries on that list.

                      I doubt French officials really used the word "neo-con" to describe Nuland though. "american", maybe.
                      As a member of NATO, They should know better.
                      Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
                        Take a chill pill & dial back the self-righteousness. America arms & has armed regimes infinitely worse than Putin. I'm sure the people of Timor Leste could tell you some stories about how well suited US weapons are to acts of genocide. Not the only ones. Hopefully France comes to some arrangement & pulls the deal, something that will be more likely if US politicians just shut up & let things get worked out behind the scenes. 'Whoring' is pretty widespread when it comes to arms sales and your nation is out there on the street corner with the best of them.
                        Putins regime seems to be the one on the move these days and in the troubled spots as the facts show. Still in the Ukrain (Crimea), Still supplying Assad's regime in Syria.

                        http://apnews1.iwon.com/article/2014...d9c663dc0.html

                        http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...55263062645666

                        Nah, no troubles at all. Whats a little more fuel to the fire as they are already having verbal exchanges with Moldova and now the French are going to deliver them landing ships.

                        Im not knocking the French Troops, Im knocking the idea the French government seems like it is going to enable Russia further by supplying these ships. They had to agree to the export.

                        I wouldnt have a problem with it so long as France plans to send its troops when Russia decides to push its weight around even further instead of NATO's troops being involved.

                        Problem is, they probably wont. So why as a NATO member continue this deal or even agree to it in the first place.

                        These are facts, not self righteousness and undeniable. And, I could easily run a list of as many if not more then you can over both of those two countries "whoring" and what it has led to.

                        Thats why the US still has Viktor Bout in custody and will for a long time to come. No way in hell he could have operated in Putins sphere without him knowing full well and approving outside of media.

                        His list of credentials are also Putins list since it could not have happened without his knowledge.
                        Last edited by Dreadnought; 13 May 14,, 05:28.
                        Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Dreadnought View Post
                          Im knocking the idea the French government seems like it is going to enable Russia further by supplying these ships. They had to agree to the export.
                          Actually, under French arms export law, the government only has to agree on two occasions.

                          First, when the contract is signed. That happened in 2010. Under the previous, conservative government, mind you.
                          Second, when the arms are actually physically exported. That'll be at the end of this year, and at the end of next year.

                          Until then, the French government can say whatever it wants. They don't have to and can't formulate an official decision until the point of delivery.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by kato View Post
                            Second, when the arms are actually physically exported. That'll be at the end of this year, and at the end of next year.

                            Until then, the French government can say whatever it wants. They don't have to and can't formulate an official decision until the point of delivery.
                            which is exactly what the french have been saying to the US and other partners
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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by gf0012-aust View Post
                              which is exactly what the french have been saying to the US and other partners
                              They also say noone ever expressed worries to them over the deal. Not in 2009 when they negotiated, nor in 2010 when it was sealed. Considering the time-frame and fresh memories of Georgian war it is strange.
                              No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                              To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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