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  • #16
    also, on a purely historical note:

    The indifference of the world towards the plight of the Jews, as certainly as the German hatred of the Jews, contributed to their deaths.
    a lot of this had to do with the exaggerations of allied press in the FIRST world war on what the germans were doing (for the most part, no, the germans did not hoist babies on bayonets).

    by the time more evidence leaked out of nazi germany that mass extermination was ongoing, most of the allied war-leaders thought that the best way to assist the jews was to finish the war as soon as possible. not so much indifference, rather than belief that their actions were correct.

    re: what your opponents or enemies are thinking. yeah, it sucks and it's no surprise that Israel's enemies will seek to downplay/deny one of the National Myths (as in stories, NOT falsehoods) of the Israeli nation-state. however, realistically speaking it's not necessary for your enemies to believe your story, only your power.

    understanding and tolerance can come later.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    • #17
      re: what your opponents or enemies are thinking. yeah, it sucks and it's no surprise that Israel's enemies will seek to downplay/deny one of the National Myths (as in stories, NOT falsehoods) of the Israeli nation-state. however, realistically speaking it's not necessary for your enemies to believe your story, only your power.
      Like I said, this is not about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, this is above that. In 2006, Assad said that "while a massacre of Jews took place during World War II, the perception in the Middle East is that the number of Holocaust victims was exaggerated".

      Fast forward, and look what is happening in Syria now. Regardless of your political beliefs, what side you are on or who your flag-bearer is. If we do not stand against Holocaust deniers, history will repeat itself again and again and again. People wondered how in the enlightened 1940's, a people as advanced as the Germans could perpetrate the Holocaust. In the even more enlightened 2010's, 200,000 Syrians are dead so far and it doesn't show signs of stopping.

      I can't prove that there is a definite causality link between Holocaust denial and the will to commit atrocities by the denier, but a cursory glance shows that most of the Holocaust deniers in power come from and rule in countries where human and civil rights are more of a suggestion than anything else.
      Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

      Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

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      • #18
        BR,

        If we do not stand against Holocaust deniers, history will repeat itself again and again and again. People wondered how in the enlightened 1940's, a people as advanced as the Germans could perpetrate the Holocaust. In the even more enlightened 2010's, 200,000 Syrians are dead so far and it doesn't show signs of stopping.

        I can't prove that there is a definite causality link between Holocaust denial and the will to commit atrocities by the denier, but a cursory glance shows that most of the Holocaust deniers in power come from and rule in countries where human and civil rights are more of a suggestion than anything else.
        by all means, stand against the holocaust deniers. ignorance should be confronted.

        OTOH there are people who care about power above all else, and for them, what do they care about the holocaust? in the same light if there was any significant political advantage for any of the middle east nations to acknowledge the holocaust, you'd see a line of Arab politicians outside the Anne Frank memorial, post-haste.

        there's a saying by upton sinclair: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"

        so when i was addressing the part about the Israel-Palestine conflict, i just meant that even if the other side engages in acts of Holocaust denial, that by itself is not reason enough to stop talking or seeking a solution. it's a form of nasty political opportunism.
        There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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        • #19
          Which is why I responded earlier, that this is not about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. As you know, there were negotiations with Abbas more than once despite his Holocaust denials. However, today of all days, in Israel, it is okay to remind us and to call to the world that there are still Holocaust deniers among us, and when we encounter them, we should do everything we can to stop the poison they are spreading.
          Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

          Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
            Which is why I responded earlier, that this is not about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. As you know, there were negotiations with Abbas more than once despite his Holocaust denials. However, today of all days, in Israel, it is okay to remind us and to call to the world that there are still Holocaust deniers among us, and when we encounter them, we should do everything we can to stop the poison they are spreading.
            I think Abbas should be judged more on his actions as Palestinian leader than on a PhD thesis written decades ago. He has recognized Israel, renounced violence and regardless of whom you blame for the collapse of Peace talks was prepared to make concessions.

            I have nothing against Holocaust deniers being called out and judged harshly where ever they are. But to include Abbas two paragraphs below Himmler pretty much makes the association of the Palestinian leadership with the Nazis, that Israel faces a continuation of the same evil from the Palestinians today that it did 70 years ago. And this based on a PhD thesis written decades ago, inspite of what Abbas said in his recent speech; the purpose appears to be to score points in the Israeli-Palestinian debate, more than anything else.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by InExile View Post
              I think Abbas should be judged more on his actions as Palestinian leader than on a PhD thesis written decades ago. He has recognized Israel, renounced violence and regardless of whom you blame for the collapse of Peace talks was prepared to make concessions.

              I have nothing against Holocaust deniers being called out and judged harshly where ever they are. But to include Abbas two paragraphs below Himmler pretty much makes the association of the Palestinian leadership with the Nazis, that Israel faces a continuation of the same evil from the Palestinians today that it did 70 years ago. And this based on a PhD thesis written decades ago, inspite of what Abbas said in his recent speech; the purpose appears to be to score points in the Israeli-Palestinian debate, more than anything else.
              I honestly do not want to turn this into an Israel-Palestine thread, so I will respond as follows:

              1) Including Abbas 9 paragraphs (not 2) beneath Himmler is not meant to mean that Israel faces a continuation of the same evil from the Palestinians that it did 70 years ago. It is to point out that Himmler ordered Auschwitz opened, a fact, and that Abbas, alongside others aside from Abbas, including Jobbik politicians, Rouhani and Khamenei, all deny that fact, or something that has to do with that fact.

              2) I would like to point out that I never said he denied the Holocaust happened. He just denied that six million died, and denied the real reason it happened, choosing to blame the Zionists. In 2013, Abbas stated that he had “70 more books that I still haven’t published” proving the Zionist-Nazi partnership. Also in 2013, he told Beirut TV station Al-Mayadeen, which is affiliated with Iran and Hezbollah, that he “challenges anyone who can deny that the Zionist movement had ties with the Nazis before World War II".

              Abbas never denied the Holocaust happened. Neither did the Jobbik Party, Rouhani, Assad, or Khamenei. They denied its scope and its extent, which is nonetheless still Holocaust denial. When Abbas declares the Holocaust to be a “heinous crime” to an American rabbi, but then turns around and and goes right on ahead blaming the Zionists for helping perpetrate the Holocaust, these are not mutually exclusive positions. Rather, they are part of a coherent and consistent worldview stated by Abbas that sees the Zionist movement as partially responsible for committing the Holocaust in Europe, and capable of exterminating their Jewish brethren, for purposes unknown.

              You can choose to defend Abbas if you like, that is your prerogative. Regardless of his or your politics, or his or your position on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the man is a Holocaust denier, clear as day. That is a fact, both well written out and defended in his doctoral thesis written decades ago, and also in his expressions from only a year ago, still blaming the Zionists for the Holocaust instead of placing blame where it is due: On Hitler and his associates and acolytes, including Sheikh Al-haj Amin al-Husseini, the Palestinian Mufti.

              Once again, this has nothing to do with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, or "to score points in the Israeli-Palestinian debate, more than anything else". Like the Assad example showed: If we do not combat denial of the Holocaust, if we allow its memory to be tarnished, we are inviting bloodshed and atrocities upon the entire world. I for one will not stand for that, and will do all I can to call out Holocaust deniers whenever and wherever I see them. That is part of my promise of "Never Again".
              Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

              Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
                Once again, this has nothing to do with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, or "to score points in the Israeli-Palestinian debate, more than anything else". Like the Assad example showed: If we do not combat denial of the Holocaust, if we allow its memory to be tarnished, we are inviting bloodshed and atrocities upon the entire world. I for one will not stand for that, and will do all I can to call out Holocaust deniers whenever and wherever I see them. That is part of my promise of "Never Again".
                Cambodia, Rwanda, Sudan, GLF and GPCR in China. Israeli voice is very silent at these events.

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                • #23
                  It's a damn shame such a solemn occasion had to be ruined with political sniping.
                  sigpic

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                  • #24
                    I don't speak for Israel. I speak for me. I have spoken out about genocide and civil war, and will continue to do so.
                    Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                    Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Minskaya View Post
                      It's a damn shame such a solemn occasion had to be ruined with political sniping.
                      I know, which is why I am trying to keep this on track: the Holocaust, and Holocaust denial
                      Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                      Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Minskaya View Post
                        It's a damn shame such a solemn occasion had to be ruined with political sniping.
                        You know what is also a shame? This: Evrejska zaednica vo Republika Makedonija and this: Holocaust memorial museum inaugurated in Skopje, Macedonia

                        If you don't follow, look at the dates.
                        No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                        To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
                          I don't speak for Israel. I speak for me. I have spoken out about genocide and civil war, and will continue to do so.
                          The point is, Ben, and always will be that voice alone is not going to stop nothing. There will never be another Jewish Holocaust because the Israeli Army will never allow it.

                          It is better to fight to the death and drag as many of the bastards with you as you can ... rather than to walk to your deaths in gas chambers, killing fields, or to be machete.

                          The world cried out in horror at Cambodia, Rwanda, and the Sudan ... and the killing did not stop.

                          The lesson here is not never again but never will the Israeli Army allow it.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
                            SB,

                            Doc is pretty much on the money. People have written huge books on this, but what it comes down to is that Jews (some of them at least) have always insisted on maintaining some aspect of their identity as separate from the societies around them. That isn't to say that they don't assimilate - they are actually very good at that - but that they refuse to become other than what they are (again, not every Jew always, but speaking broadly). It is the 'original sin' for which they cannot be forgiven as it marks them out as different. Those who are different are more easily viewed as sinister, dangerous, untrustworthy etc. That is what has made anti-semitism so easy to spread - fear of the 'other' and a belief in vast conspiracies. One of the more stunning discoveries of late for me is encountering anti-Semitism among East Asians - a people with next to no direct dealings with Jews...ever. Some prejudices transfer easily.
                            Was watching a PBS show last night about San Francisco and how the City grew and evolved from the Gold Rush to the recovery past the 1906 earthquake. Once the Gold Rush ended we then had the discovery of the Comstock Lode which actually created the organized City of San Francisco as compared to the rough and tumble Gold Rush era. As such San Francisco attracted a lot of Jewish immigrants with famous name like Sutro, Hellman, Haas, and Strauss. The names of the City are full of that Jewish history and their philantrophy today. Anyway, by the 1870's there were 16,000 Jewish immigrants here making it the second largest concentration outside of New York City.

                            Now people talk about how liberal The City is today. Well, got news for you it was liberal way back then courtesy the Gold Rush. The Jews arriving here led the Reform movement in the City as compared to the more Orthodox in New York. They celebrated Christmas just because they wanted to. They had a Christian choir sing in their temples just because they wanted to. The comment that really struck me was this: when you asked a New York Jewish immigrant who/what they are they would say "Jewish" and when you asked one who lived in San Francisco they said they were "San Franciscan" leaving out Jewish.

                            http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...,d.b2U&cad=rja

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                            • #29
                              Speaking of Strauss, is there any cultural symbol more representative of the United States than a pair of Levi's?

                              Levi Strauss - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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                              • #30
                                why do you care about a crappy little country like israel?

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