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Thread: Dateline: Ukraine

  1. #46
    Global Moderator Defense Professional JAD_333's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    Them being Russians,you won't detter them an economic slap on the wrist.
    They see themselves as part of an ideological and cultural war,imposed on them by the West.That Westerners may not see themselves as aggressors is also true,but irrelevant.Sheer Western might provokes collateral damage.
    Indeed, the Russian people are capable of incredible hardship and dogged persistence in wars with bullets but, if history serves, less so in fighting unseen influences, cultural or otherwise. Today there is no Napoleon or Hitler poised to march to Moscow, only sanctions for THEIR aggression. While the people may bear economic sanctions for a long while, their endurance will be tested when it turns out the sacrifice is not worthy of the threat. Sanctions are not to punish the people, but to weaken the leadership. We are in a new world where economic leverage is replacing armies as primary tools of statecraft. Putin may not fully appreciate that now, but he may soon.
    To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

  2. #47
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    Despite Putin's understanding of the nature of subterfuge, and how to exploit simmering (or maybe festering) conflict, I think Putin blew his chance. He forgot the gift of "face" the West had already granted him. Putin demanded, and won Russia's right to be central in these discussions, with the knowledge that the West would cooperate with, and thereby validate, Russian concerns. It's too late now, since at least Crimea, and certainly after his meddling in E. Ukraine. He'll be unable to extricate himself without more and more egg on his face as the years pass.

  3. #48
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    Something occurred to me. A prospering Ukraine, despite lacking membership in the Eurasian custom's union, has got to be one of Putin's greatest fears. I wonder what Belorussians in the street would think should this eventuality come to pass?

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    Someone shot the mayor of Ukraine's second largest city in the back today. He may not survive. Is it because of his traditional anti-Maiden stance? Or because of his more recent disgust with the pro-Russian element trying to divide Ukraine into pieces?

    Mayor of Ukraine

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    I cannot to not comment this:
    Better yet, let those relatively few who want to live under Russian rule, move to Russia. If you want to live in France, you don't demand France to make the land under your house French. You move like people do all over the world. These separatists create chaos and then complain about it. It's a farce designed not to make their lives better, but to feed Russia's yearning for more territory.
    http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/eur...tml#post960586
    Seems to me, you have chose wrong example about France, Jad.

    Mayotte is part of the Comoros archipelago of four islands just off the north coast of Mozambique, with a mixed history of African peoples, Arab and Persian traders and French colonists who arrived in the 19th century. Since independence from France in 1975, the politically unstable Comoros have been dubbed the "coup-coup islands" for their 20 coup d'etats or attempted putsches.

    But for more than 30 years Mayotte has stood apart, avoiding the Comoros coups and crushing poverty. At independence in 1975, unlike the other three islands, it voted to remain part of France. It has since been administered by Paris but now wants fully-fledged French status. After Sunday's referendum it will get French education services, unemployment benefits, and family support packages as part of France's social system. Its taxes will also rise and it will have to outlaw polygamy and replace the current Islamic judges in a transfer to French law.

    But the other three Comoros islands, along with the African Union, are furious at the likely new French status, calling it an "occupation by a foreign power". The separation of Mayotte from the other three Comoros islands flouts a UN resolution passed in 1960 ruling that during decolonisation all existing boundaries must be respected. The Comoros claim that separating Mayotte from the rest of the archipelago is illegitimate and will make reuniting the four islands impossible.

    Tiny island of the Indian Ocean keen to embrace French rule - 34 years after gaining independence | World news | The Guardian
    So, as we can see, your assertion If you want to live in France, you don't demand France to make the land under your house French is not true.

    As for the people of the South East of Ukraine - they live in their own land. Millions of people live in their own land and they have the right to decide how to live in their own land.

  6. #51
    In Memoriam Military Professional Minskaya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatboy View Post
    Someone shot the mayor of Ukraine's second largest city in the back today. He may not survive. Is it because of his traditional anti-Maiden stance? Or because of his more recent disgust with the pro-Russian element trying to divide Ukraine into pieces?

    Mayor of Ukraine
    Gennady Kernes has been a longtime mayor of Kharkiv. He was previously aligned with Yanukovych, but changed when pro-Russia titushki attempted to take over the Kharkiv City Hall. He had a number of these troublemakers arrested and would not allow them to disrupt the city. This assassination attempt is viewed as a message from the Kremlin to mayors and governors in the east to not interfere with the Russian goon squads.


    Sign says Donetsk Is Ukraine at a pro-Ukraine rally in Donetsk today

    14 people where injured in Donetsk today when a pro-Ukraine rally of 1000 people was attacked by several hundred pro-Russia goons.

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    assassination attempt, kidnapping/hostage-taking of NATO OSCE officers.

    and the ukrainian authorities are supposed to be the terrorists?
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minskaya View Post
    Gennady Kernes has been a longtime mayor of Kharkiv. He was previously aligned with Yanukovych, but changed when pro-Russia titushki attempted to take over the Kharkiv City Hall. He had a number of these troublemakers arrested and would not allow them to disrupt the city. This assassination attempt is viewed as a message from the Kremlin to mayors and governors in the east to not interfere with the Russian goon squads.


    Sign says Donetsk Is Ukraine at a pro-Ukraine rally in Donetsk today

    14 people where injured in Donetsk today when a pro-Ukraine rally of 1000 people was attacked by several hundred pro-Russia goons.
    Seems to me Putin would attempt to distance, or at least displace, himself from association with this attempted assassination, even if its success suits him. A cowardly bullet in the back of anybody is an awfully vulgar display, even to those grandmothers in E. Ukraine holding Russian flags and singing Soviet tunes.

  9. #54
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    assassination attempt, kidnapping/hostage-taking of NATO OSCE officers.

    and the ukrainian authorities are supposed to be the terrorists?
    Authorities? Hmm.. what authority they have in the affected regions?
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  10. #55
    In Memoriam Military Professional Minskaya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrSecond View Post
    As for the people of the South East of Ukraine - they live in their own land. Millions of people live in their own land and they have the right to decide how to live in their own land.
    I have a home in Crimea and understand the ethnic/political dynamics of the peninsula. I knew perfectly well how Crimeans would vote.

    But Southeast Ukraine is not Crimea MrSecond. Quite unlike you posting from afar in Russia, I was born and raised in this region of Ukraine.

    I know how these people would vote. A unified Ukraine would easily win any referendum. In fact, I would welcome such a referendum.

    The problem is, Russia's armed Little-Green-Men goons have made it all bit impossible to hold such a referendum without threats, intimidation, and chaos.

    They even kidnap the international monitors trying to calm the waters.

    Terrible planning in this regard. Putin screwed the pooch. A shame actually, because I would immensely enjoy the thrashing Russia would receive at the polls.

  11. #56
    In Memoriam Military Professional Minskaya's Avatar
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    If the capture of German military personnel and parading them before cameras as prisoners doesn't wake up Ms Merkel and the German government, I don't know what will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minskaya View Post
    The problem is, Russia's armed Little-Green-Men goons have made it all bit impossible to hold such a referendum without threats, intimidation, and chaos.
    Oh, these Little-Green-Men are the same imperceptible ones as the real Green Men. I mean the real green men... from Mars.

  13. #58
    Global Moderator Defense Professional JAD_333's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrSecond View Post
    I cannot to not comment this:


    Seems to me, you have chose wrong example about France, Jad.
    Substitute any country you like, but Russia. The point doesn't change.
    To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

  14. #59

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    Mayor In Eastern Ukraine Shot As Pro-Russian Militants Gain Ground-WAPO August 28

    "...But the atmosphere changed in an instant when the crowd was ambushed by dozens of armed young men, who swung their whips and hurled molotov cocktails after blowing past hundreds of government security forces.

    'Police knew that men with bats were coming, but they just let them do it,' said Oleg Saakyan, 19, a protest organizer whose ear was dripping blood. He was one of at least 25 people who were injured.

    A police sergeant who declined to give his name said that he had compassion for the demonstrators but that police officers are in a difficult position.


    'We support unity,' he said. 'But I’m not going to get my head beaten for 2,500 hryvnia [about $200] a month.'”

    Then resign your post you miserable POS.

    Minnie,

    Another example to which I referred in my P.M. He complains of his pay and fails to perform his DUTY but takes his salary all the same from a government upon whom he depends for his livelihood but won't defend.

    God help you because nobody else will if your own manhood cower from thugs.

    Not at all sure how those men could look each other in the eye upon returning to the station.
    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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    Quote Originally Posted by S2 View Post
    Mayor In Eastern Ukraine Shot As Pro-Russian Militants Gain Ground-WAPO August 28

    "...But the atmosphere changed in an instant when the crowd was ambushed by dozens of armed young men, who swung their whips and hurled molotov cocktails after blowing past hundreds of government security forces.

    'Police knew that men with bats were coming, but they just let them do it,' said Oleg Saakyan, 19, a protest organizer whose ear was dripping blood. He was one of at least 25 people who were injured.

    A police sergeant who declined to give his name said that he had compassion for the demonstrators but that police officers are in a difficult position.


    'We support unity,' he said. 'But I’m not going to get my head beaten for 2,500 hryvnia [about $200] a month.'”

    Then resign your post you miserable POS.

    Minnie,

    Another example to which I referred in my P.M. He complains of his pay and fails to perform his DUTY but takes his salary all the same from a government upon whom he depends for his livelihood but won't defend.

    God help you because nobody else will if your own manhood cower from thugs.

    Not at all sure how those men could look each other in the eye upon returning to the station.

    Such a cowardly display by the police sergeant. Seems the rot is down to the bone all over Ukraine.

    I hope someone's writing down the names of police who fail in their responsibilities as grievously as this sergeant did. Fire these idiots as soon as it's realistically feasible.

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