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  • #31
    Who sets the bar for sane? If your issue is that you don't really have two parties you like, well, damn, welcome to everyone's problem.
    "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

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    • #32
      GVChamp,

      Who sets the bar for sane? If your issue is that you don't really have two parties you like, well, damn, welcome to everyone's problem.
      no, i need not -like- the other party to recognize it to be sane. for instance, i recognize the party of HW Bush or Reagan as sane, even if i disagreed with many of the positions. there was a recognized conservative position, yet also an understanding that democracy means pragmatism and compromise. there was an identified chain of leadership.

      contrast that with the Republican Party of today, where on any particular subject you'll find two or three interpretations on the same issue, where compromise is seen as outright betrayal, no acknowledged leadership, with the worst conspiratorial impulses openly celebrated.
      There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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      • #33
        ^^ as compared to the party that thinks this time sacrificing to the angry weather god will work. That claims to be for equality and equal rights while celebrating infanticide and unequal gender rights... that claims there is a war on women while paying them less. That claims to be for openness, science and equality while doing the exact opposite. If you want to see insane look left not right.

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        • #34
          z...you're completely missing my point.

          notice my criticism of the GOP does not include a single ideological point. i'm not criticizing the politics, i'm criticizing the utter organizational anarchy. it makes the Dems of Will Roger's time look like the model of Singaporean efficiency.
          There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

          Comment


          • #35
            Why are HW and Reagan sane? Certainly large chunks of Democrats did not think so at the time. "Voodoo economics" coupled with the end of Detente made many Democrats think of Reagan as a lunatic bent on ending the world. The dude even had an astrologer on staff!
            The current GOP is significantly more conservative than that GOP. It has also some leadership struggles, as the caucaus is more conservative than the leadership. I do not see the party as any worse than the party which put a college professor with Roosevelt-ian delusions of grandeur in charge. I quite like that they enforced loyalty for long enough to stop New Deal 3.0 from taking place.
            "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

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            • #36
              Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
              Why are HW and Reagan sane?.
              I would argue that Regan's ability to raise taxes when it became apparent that it needed to be done is a good indication of sanity. He campaigned heavily against raising taxes, yet when faced with reality, he did it despite his ideology. I find it particularly remarkable that he managed to raise taxes without paying much of a political cost for it. Can you imagine a modern Republican POTUS raising taxes after campaigining against it without Gorver Norquist and half the GOP going up in flames? Idology is well and good, but a good leader can't follow idology blindly while ignoring the changing realities they face.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by astralis View Post
                z...you're completely missing my point.

                notice my criticism of the GOP does not include a single ideological point. i'm not criticizing the politics, i'm criticizing the utter organizational anarchy. it makes the Dems of Will Roger's time look like the model of Singaporean efficiency.
                I see the lively debate inside the GOP about the direction of the party as part and parcel of the Democratic process... Unlike the Democrats and their enforced conformity ad attachment to wack-a-mole beliefs. Sorry but any party that embraces sacrificing to the angry weather god as a platform plank is as nutty as an Almond orchard.

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                • #38
                  z,

                  I see the lively debate inside the GOP about the direction of the party as part and parcel of the Democratic process... Unlike the Democrats and their enforced conformity ad attachment to wack-a-mole beliefs.
                  i swear i'm living in an upside down world where -dems- are accused of "enforced conformity".

                  by your definition the GOP has had enforced conformity since what, 1860, until the rise of the Tea Party? the GOP was known as the grown-up party for no small reason BECAUSE of their organization and discipline, the anti-thesis to the hippies and the factionalism (or or as you call it, the "lively debate") that pervaded the Democratic Party. and it was this organization and discipline that led to a string of Republican presidencies from 1968 to 1992, broken only by carter and at the end, clinton.

                  well, if Republicans seek to emulate the organization of the late 60s-early 70s Dems, that's their business. history indicates that's probably not such a great model to follow if winning Presidencies and getting legislative victories is your thing, though.

                  note again i'm -still- not talking about the politics.
                  There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    steve,

                    Can you imagine a modern Republican POTUS raising taxes after campaigining against it without Gorver Norquist and half the GOP going up in flames?
                    that is precisely it.

                    to take an example, let's look at immigration policy. on 30 Jan 14, House Republicans came out with their new immigration policy which they supposedly agreed on as part of their 2014 legislative strategy. the policy stated that they wanted to open a path for legal status (not citizenship) for the illegal immigrants currently in the country.

                    this was after Romney's, uh, not-so-great showing among Hispanics in the election, and where not just the Establishment Republicans such as the RNC were calling for it, but Tea Party heroes like Rubio were calling for some sort of reform as well.

                    after all of this, some 19 house republicans signed on, about double that oppose it, and the rest do not want to deal with it in any way. when John Boehner spoke up about it and mocked the inaction, within days he had to walk back his statement, blaming Obama for causing Republicans to "lose trust" and therefore not support their own strategy (??).

                    so, on this one policy, Republicans have chosen to ignore their own strategy while abandoning their leadership (yet not electing new leaders). speaking about organization alone, this is a complete cluster-f*ck.

                    in the short-term, this benefits the Dems-- see how the Dems have outmaneuvered Boehner and the Republicans again and again, whether the subject is healthcare or taxes or stimulus. and lost fewer seats than they would have, due to people like Sharon Angle or Todd Akin or Christine O'Donnell. and for that matter, the Presidency itself.

                    in the long-term this is horrible for the nation.
                    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      For the next three years, Republican politicians will be fighting to win support from a conservative base that’s rabid for red meat. And if there’s an easy path to the prize, it’s to find something a liberal likes, and denounce it.
                      And that is precisely what I am hoping for. Equate liberal candidates' ideas with Obama's dismal policies and do whatever it takes to make Elizabeth Warren appear as the Democratic Party's official spokesperson.

                      My loyalty to the center-right persuasion does not go beyond Henry Adams' famous quote: "Politics, as a practice, whatever its professions, has always been the systematic organization of hatreds." I do not vote for a party but against another.

                      The Republican Party, however embarrassing, will not produce a presidential candidate who will oppose free trade, cut defense spending and bemoan American involvement abroad. A Democrat, by contrast, would be ambiguous on all three counts.

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                      • #41
                        neoconish,

                        The Republican Party, however embarrassing, will not produce a presidential candidate who will oppose free trade, cut defense spending and bemoan American involvement abroad.
                        uh, have you been following the Tea Party or the libertarians recently? that's pretty much what they want to do.
                        There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by astralis View Post
                          neoconish,



                          uh, have you been following the Tea Party or the libertarians recently? that's pretty much what they want to do.
                          Its also what the Left DID. Our economy is flat with no real job growth and a shrinking middle class. Our liberties are inretreat with free speech zones, government spying and the PC police ready to crucify anyone who doesn't toe the line. China is overtaking us as the lead economic power (albiet with cooked books) and Russia is telling us to get our astronauts to the Space Station we built using a trampoline and now we know that at Benghazi Obama's only concern was his image.... Bitching about the Tea Party/Libertarians is smoke and mirrors to distract from the real problem- the foxes are running the chicken farm.

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                          • #43
                            z,

                            i really don't get your point. this thread is about how conservatives have wrapped themselves so much against Obama that they're attacking things which they'd normally be for. if you want to talk about something else, you can start your own thread.

                            i just mentioned how this was emblematic of the greater organizational dysfunction within the GOP, and how this dysfunction is both bad for the party and ultimately for the US.

                            to wit, your one cogizant argument is that there IS no dysfunction within the GOP and that everything going on is simply a healthy part of the democratic process. everything else is just a parade of GOP political talking points. is it so hard to have a discussion without throwing out every single talking point you can think of?
                            There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by astralis View Post
                              neoconish,
                              uh, have you been following the Tea Party or the libertarians recently? that's pretty much what they want to do.
                              I disagree. Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz are strong proponents of American Exceptionalism, which is hard power foreign policy by another name. And by hard power I mean free trade and a strong military presence. On China, Russia, Israel, Iran, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and yes, on the expletive EU, neither Rubio nor Cruz nor Bush nor Perry nor Ryan nor Christie differ in any distinguishable way. The odd one out is Paul.

                              Yet Rand Paul may also prove to be rather malleable as he approaches the corridors of power. He has gradually wandered from the lone woods of Aqua Buddhist practices towards increasing foreign policy hawkishness. Favoring Iran sanctions and the protection of Christians in Syria is not an isolationist stance. Paul even ventured to speak before a heavyweight audience including Kissinger and Scowcroft, simply to underscore that a Paul presidency would bear no mark of ideological extremism.

                              Looking back 100 years, no serious GOP candidate for president was ever a trade opponent (bar Hoover) or an isolationist (bar Goldwater).

                              Originally posted by astralis View Post
                              i just mentioned how this was emblematic of the greater organizational dysfunction within the GOP, and how this dysfunction is both bad for the party and ultimately for the US.
                              On one level, the party takes whichever position is required by its financiers. On another level, though, it possesses a continuum of vastly experienced policy contributors. And as long as these two tiers, however conflicting, manage to settle their differences, it is possible for the administration to forge a successful foreign policy.

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                              • #45
                                neoconish,

                                And by hard power I mean free trade and a strong military presence
                                Tea-Party Resistance Clouds Push for Major Trade Pacts - WSJ.com

                                generally speaking free trade support is soft, at best, with the grassroots. moreover, the definition of "strong military presence" seems to change depending on the situation-- for instance there's no unified Republican view on what we should do with Syria.

                                moreover foreign policy is not really high up on the Tea Party sense of priorities. it's domestic politics that interest them, but if they do think about foreign policy they incline the same way they do with their domestic politics, ie libertarian.

                                that actually represents another split in terms of the GOP foreign policy continuum; now, in addition to paleo-conservatives/realists and neo-conservatives, there is a libertarian/isolationist faction.
                                Last edited by astralis; 02 May 14,, 17:09.
                                There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                                Comment

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