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Thread: Cricket - The Greatest Game of all

  1. #106
    Contributor cataphract's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    Yet he still takes wickets at a highly respectable strike rate & a decent average for his type of bowler. I guess he has learned how to bowl in the conditions he faces most often.
    Valid argument, and one that Australians tend to forget when Indian batsmen score gargantuan runs on Indian pitches. Somehow doing well in conditions we face most often gets the label flat-track bully.



    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    As I have expressed numerous times in the past, the only time I give a shit about ODI is World Cups. If anything the increasing frequency of matches over the past 10 years & the creation of T20 has made it even less significant. We pick the best bowler for the best situation. We pick guys for ODIs who are shit test bowlers. This is not new. We have done this for decades. Trying to use Lyon's ODI record to buttress criticism of his test bowling is a losing argument. Of all the discussions I have had about Lyon over the past few years (including ones when I used to take your view), I have never once heard an Australian care that he doesn't bowl well in ODIs As the figures make clear, he is doing the job required and he is doing it in a manner comparable to much more highly rated bowlers.
    It's really upto CricketAustralia to give a shit about evolving the game of cricket, and unless you are on the selectors panel what you give shits about is irrelevant. I repeat, what makes great bowlers is the ability to take wickets in all conditions and all formats of the game, something Lyon manifestly cannot do. CA didn't pick spin bowlers for ODI because they are shit at tests, CA dropped Lyon from the ODI team because he couldn't contain runs nor take wickets. It's not as if Doherty is amazing at it either, but he has better figures than Lyon.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    You need to get your head out of the Warne era. Lyon would have been a regular starter for Australia any time from the retirement of Benaud to the rise of Warne and he would have been a competitor for the off spinner's spot for most of the past century. He would have been a semi-regular selection during the Warne era (like Tim May, whose figures are worse). He is a good bowler. Not great, but good.



    There aren't any other spinners out there who are pressing for a place. There is nobody tearing up the State comps. And given that we rarely pick more than one full time spinner it is more a 'position' than a 'department'. The position is currently occupied by a wicket taking Test bowler. I doubt 'in again out again' stupidity of the past will be repeated any time soon. That path is a proven failure.
    Nothing that refutes what I said in my previous posts. Australia's spin cupboard is empty. I'm not sure what you mean by 'in again and out again', but Australia has tried to blood new spinners in the recent past, Agar and O'Keefe and somehow never had the patience to give them a few games to settle in. Baffling considering how long of a rope Watson and Shaun Marsh have been given, and mostly to hang themselves.

  2. #107
    Contributor cataphract's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bolo121 View Post
    The attitude of the captains shines through each team's performance.
    Steve smith was clearly enjoying himself and relishing the fight.
    Dhoni was his usual slightly lost indifferent captain cool self. Under that bland expression is a guy who wants to be elsewhere in coloured clothes.
    It's high time Dhoni relinquish the test captaincy or at least the gloves. We do need him as a test batsman though.

  3. #108
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cataphract View Post
    Valid argument, and one that Australians tend to forget when Indian batsmen score gargantuan runs on Indian pitches. Somehow doing well in conditions we face most often gets the label flat-track bully.
    Actually, turns out I was a bit unfair to Lyon. He has played exactly the same number of tests in Australia & overseas - 19. he has 59 wickets OS & 74 at home - a difference of about 25% of the lower figure. His average differs by about the same amount. I suspect there are plenty of Indian batsmen & bowlers who would kill for a difference that small home vs away.

    I've never really minded Indian batsmen racking up cheap runs at home, as it made them easier to get out here. I do have a huge problem with any batting figures from Sri Lanka. I would put an * next to each & every one by any batsman.

    It's really upto CricketAustralia to give a shit about evolving the game of cricket, and unless you are on the selectors panel what you give shits about is irrelevant. I repeat, what makes great bowlers is the ability to take wickets in all conditions and all formats of the game, something Lyon manifestly cannot do.
    As I said, Lyon isn't a great bowler, he's a good one. He has limitations, but in the context of Australian finger spinners he is pretty good.

    CA didn't pick spin bowlers for ODI because they are shit at tests
    No, they picked them because they were good at ODI, which was my point.

    CA dropped Lyon from the ODI team because he couldn't contain runs nor take wickets. It's not as if Doherty is amazing at it either, but he has better figures than Lyon.
    Then Doherty gets to play ODI, which he is better at, and Lyon plays Test, which he is better at. Perfect!


    Nothing that refutes what I said in my previous posts. Australia's spin cupboard is empty. I'm not sure what you mean by 'in again and out again', but Australia has tried to blood new spinners in the recent past, Agar and O'Keefe and somehow never had the patience to give them a few games to settle in.
    We have had a revolving door for spinners since Warne & MacGill retired. There have been a number of promising players who didn't develop and some who probably weren't given the opportunity they should have been. Initially Lyon was burdened with the same poor selection practices but was able to bowl well enough often enough to become the regular spinner. Selection policies have become more mature since Lehmann took over. New selections will be given better chances.

    Baffling considering how long of a rope Watson and Shaun Marsh have been given, and mostly to hang themselves.
    Watson has benefitted from two things. One is an obsession with allrounders that probably goes back to Keith Miller. He is actually a very good allrounder when he is fit. He is just not a Test no.3. The other thing in his favour is that we finally worked out Johnson is best bowled in short spells. Combined with Harris & his issues that means we need someone to bowl 10-15 medium pace overs per innings. Watson is a good bowler in that role. If Mitch marsh can overcome the family hamstring curse he is being groomed for the Watson spot. Few people will cry if it happens.

    Shaun Marsh has 2 centuries & a 99 from 11 Tests. My view of him was coloured by his performance against India last tour, but anyone who can make 148 against Sth Africa in Sth Africa might just be a test batsman. He did well this test & is averaging 45 for the series.


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  4. #109
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cataphract View Post
    It's high time Dhoni relinquish the test captaincy or at least the gloves. We do need him as a test batsman though.
    Looks like you got part of your wish. He has retired from Tests. Interesting times for India. Kohli is on the way from being a good Test batsman to a great one, but his leadership is yet to be tested. I suspect he will need to calm down a bit, but he is inheriting a young team potentially on the rise. If he can get his temperament right he could lead India to considerable success.


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  5. #110
    Armchair Worrier Senior Contributor bolo121's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    Looks like you got part of your wish. He has retired from Tests. Interesting times for India. Kohli is on the way from being a good Test batsman to a great one, but his leadership is yet to be tested. I suspect he will need to calm down a bit, but he is inheriting a young team potentially on the rise. If he can get his temperament right he could lead India to considerable success.
    Finally! He should have done it after the english defeats instead of trying to come back for this series.
    It should go a long way to releasing the pressure on him.
    Hope he can clear his mind and focus on ODIs as the world cup looms.
    Kohli is far too easily angered but beggars cant be choosers, I expect we will continue to perform poorly abroad.
    For Gallifrey! For Victory! For the end of time itself!!

  6. #111
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bolo121 View Post
    Finally! He should have done it after the english defeats instead of trying to come back for this series.
    It should go a long way to releasing the pressure on him.
    Hope he can clear his mind and focus on ODIs as the world cup looms.
    He seems a much better limited overs captain than a Test one. A new generation of players is taking over. Probably time for him to move on.

    Kohli is far too easily angered but beggars cant be choosers, I expect we will continue to perform poorly abroad.
    If Kohli can mature for the sake of the team then he may be a good captain, but he does need to mature. This week was fascinating. He clearly still hasn't got the idea of 'don't dish it out if you can't take it'. The press conference where he went on at length about the sledging & not respecting Johnson was bizarre. This was Ryan Harris' response:

    He's a pretty good player so I don't know where he gets that from. I respect him, and I know all the boys in the change room respect him because he has come out and his bat does the talking. Where he gets that from I am not sure. There's a bit of banter on the field, but if that doesn't stay out there and comes up here, he needs to have a look at that
    As for India's future prospects, I'm a bit more optimistic. You have the core of a really good batting lineup. Vijay, Kohli & Rahane are all developing into good batsmen overseas. Ashwin is a good bowler, and if you can teach your quicks a bit of line & length they will be scary. This series you have been one good bowler short of possibly winning the whole thing. That & a slightly better mental approach and the change will be remarkable. Too many times the team just seemed to drop its head when things turned against them. To their credit, they were able to come back, but it is better not to have to.


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  7. #112
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    So, the biggest sporting event in the World after the Olympics, Football World Cup and AFL Grand Final has begun.

    After a pretty feeble opening ceremony (not sure why they bother). However, the cricket so far has been spectacular. The organizers also claim to have already sold 850,000 tickets. They will easily cross the million mark.

    New Zealand defeated Sri Lanka by 98 runs at home with the Kiwis a picture of consistency. Three batsmen got to 50 (and one 49), yet the highest score was 75. Five bowlers each got 2 wickets. A promising start for a team that might go all the way.

    Australia has just finished its innings against England, making 342. Aaron Finch made a punishing century, ably assisted by George Bailey and a dashing 50 from Glenn Maxwell. Australia put on over 100 runs in the last 10 overs and Finn got a hat trick with the last 3 balls. Australia's score is 30 runs above the highest total England has ever scored, so a win seems unlikely.

    General comments on the WC: Australia, New Zealand & Sth Africa are the favourites. Each has batting & bowling depth and the Kiwis are at home. They currently have their best team in 30 years, so they might cash in. Sri Lanka & India are also chances, but neither have shown great form in the lead up matches. To be honest, India look like they are ready to go home - some of them have been in Australia long enough to claim residency. However, talented teams can never be dismissed. If Kohli for India or Sangkakkara for Sri Lanka find form at the right end of the tournament they might go far.

    England look good enough to beat some good teams, but not good enough to do it consistently. Pakistan are Pakistan. Who the hell knows. We will find out a bit tomorrow when they play India. The rest are just making up the numbers. The West Indies are a shadow of even the average teams of a decade ago. Bangladesh might surprise a few teams, but lack depth. Ireland will play with spirit, Scotland & UAE will get hammered, Afghanistan is just chuffed to be here & Zimbabwe is just pleased to be in a nation that still has $100 notes.

    Personally I'm hoping Afghanistan wins a game or two. They are the feel good story of the World Cup, and with numbers being cut for the next two WCs it may be their last one. I also have a soft spot for Pakistan, having been at the MCG when they beat England to win in 1992. I'm hoping they make the semis, though no Pakistani I talk to believes they will.


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  8. #113
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    So far things going exactly as expected, was hoping England would do a bit better.

    Once again they got the format of the tournament wrong. There isn't the depth in International cricket to have three rounds of knockout matches. Much better to have had direct semis, maybe even have fewer teams, maybe 10 and each team play the other twice. More crucial games that way between the top teams. Think the 1992 world cup was the best format till date, even though they were only 9 teams.

    Australia, SA and New Zealand seem far ahead of the other teams at the moment, although England, India, Sri Lanka and Pakistan have a small chance, especially with the knockout format once they get to the quarter finals; they only need to fire at the right time.

    Not sure about the strongest NZ team in 30 years, the Kiwis were really strong in 1992, recall they won every single match. Looked like they would win the World cup easily until Pakistan beat them twice. NZ have the knack of producing top class players from a small talent pool, Hadlee, Crowe and now McCullum. Will be rooting for them, anyone who can stop the Aussies from winning their 5th title
    Last edited by InExile; 14 Feb 15, at 10:22.

  9. #114
    Armchair Worrier Senior Contributor bolo121's Avatar
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    Haven't seen a single match so far, was stuck working.
    Since India is looking really bad this time around, I am also rooting for New Zealand they have had a excellent 2014 and it would be great to see them lift the cup.
    For Gallifrey! For Victory! For the end of time itself!!

  10. #115
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InExile View Post
    So far things going exactly as expected, was hoping England would do a bit better.
    I was a bit surprised by Sri Lanka losing so badly, but NZ are in red hot form. England seemed better when they first arrived, but we have beaten them by over 100 runs in our last 2 ODIs. They are in strife already. If Bell, Morgan & Taylor fire they might be able to bowl well enough to beat a good team. If.

    Once again they got the format of the tournament wrong. There isn't the depth in International cricket to have three rounds of knockout matches. Much better to have had direct semis, maybe even have fewer teams, maybe 10 and each team play the other twice. More crucial games that way between the top teams. Think the 1992 world cup was the best format till date, even though they were only 9 teams.
    I like 2 knockout rounds, it gives an edge to more of the matches. However, there are a few too many teams to keep the tournament short enough. Pity, because I like seeing the minnows get their chance to mix it with the big boys. They are cutting back the numbers, so you might get what you want.

    Australia, SA and New Zealand seem far ahead of the other teams at the moment, although England, India, Sri Lanka and Pakistan have a small chance, especially with the knockout format once they get to the quarter finals; they only need to fire at the right time.
    That is why I like 2 knockout rounds, it gives teams that start slowly or might be a bit out of the running a real chance, but they can't just get it by getting lucky in 1 game.

    Not sure about the strongest NZ team in 30 years, the Kiwis were really strong in 1992, recall they won every single match. Looked like they would win the World cup easily until Pakistan beat them twice. NZ have the knack of producing top class players from a small talent pool, Hadlee, Crowe and now McCullum. Will be rooting for them, anyone who can stop the Aussies from winning their 5th title
    By 'best in 30 years' I was tipping my hat to the strong NZ teams of the Hadlee era, which stretched into the late 80s. The 1992 side had a great batting lineup - most of it the remnants of their strong 80s teams. The bowling, however, was poor outside NZ (or even outside ODIs). Danny Morrison was the only class bowler there and he was a product of the Hadlee era too. This NZ team is the best since then. They are winning tests against decent teams overseas. At home their advantages multiply.

    I think they will be everyone's 'second team'.


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  11. #116
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bolo121 View Post
    Haven't seen a single match so far, was stuck working.
    Since India is looking really bad this time around, I am also rooting for New Zealand they have had a excellent 2014 and it would be great to see them lift the cup.
    I assume you will be correcting that today.


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  12. #117
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    India made 300 but threw away a chance to make 320-330. Great death bowling by Sohail Khan. Pakistan will consider themselves a chance here. Will make for a great game. Adelaide Oval sounding like it did when Port played finals there last year.

    Sth Africa having a hit out against Zimbabwe. Slow start but came home with 188 off the last 15 overs. Two centurions. Zimbabwe doing OK at 3/207 off 35, but lack the batting to get it done.


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  13. #118
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    Sohail Khan and Wahab Riaz has once again put Pakistan to the game.

  14. #119
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    Ooo Laaa Laaa!! India won!

  15. #120
    Armchair Worrier Senior Contributor bolo121's Avatar
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    Good to see an Indian win, from a drama point of view the game disappointed.
    Pakistan never looked like they were going to get there.
    For Gallifrey! For Victory! For the end of time itself!!

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