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Thread: Cricket - The Greatest Game of all

  1. #91
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cataphract View Post
    No he hasn't. He has taken a 7-for exactly once, in Delhi last year, with an economy of 4.00. On a wicket where a clown like Jadeja got 5 wickets. Elsewhere in the subcontinent, he has been dismal.
    Wasn't aware Sri Lanka had been moved to a different part of the world. As much a part of the Subcontinent as Britain is of Europe or Japan of Asia.

    Let's not compare him to Harbhajan, who is a veteran and who has, in his prime, excelled not just in the subcontinent but in England, Windies and SAfrica as well. It's unfair to Lyon, whose career has only just begun. A more apt comparison would be R Ashwin, who is the same age as Lyon and has played less test cricket than Lyon, and yet has better figures. The most damning figures are the number of ODIs and T20s Lyon has been picked for - 8 ODIs and 19 T20s. He is constantly being passed over for Doherty, O' Keefe, etc.
    So a couple of bowlers who are too shit to play real cricket are better than Lyon at hit & giggle? I think you've misunderstood who is being 'damned' by that comparison. So he isn't a good limited overs bowler? You really couldn't pay me to care. We've tried at least 4 or 5 other spinners over the past few years in Tests & they were all terrible. We keep coming back to Lyon because he takes wickets and he takes them regularly.

    Here are some averages & strike rates of offies (and Kumble) over the past 30 - 40 years, though most are more recent. Ashley Mallett is Australia's most successful off spinner. Lyon is about half a dozen wickets away from passing his tally in about the same number of tests. Lyon isn't an all time great, but he is, as I pointed out, much better than you are giving him credit for. He concedes runs, but he takes wickets & he takes them at a good strike rate.

    Lyon: 34.66; 66.3

    Vettori: 34.36; 79.5

    Ashwin 28.65; 59.1

    Saqlian Mustaq: 29.83; 67.5

    Kumble: 29.65; 65.9

    Swann: 29.96; 60.9

    Tim May: 34.74; 87.6

    Singh: 32.37; 68.5

    Embury: 38.40; 104.7

    Mallett: 29.84; 75.6

    Bedi: 28.71; 80.3


    All that being said, his performance in Adelaide was stunning, and I only hope that this is a turning point for him and the Australian team. Maybe having Muralitharan as a spin coach is really paying off
    Thing is, I don't see any great change over what he was doing this time last year. No magic new ball, no dramatic improvement in control. he is throwing the ball up more than he did early in his career, but he was doing that last year as well. Personally I'd like to see him take more wickets, but that is true of all our bowlers.

    As for the Australian team, there is a 'turning point' of another type. Steve Smith has been named captain for the remainder of the series. Clarke is not expected to return in a hurry, if at all. I think he will play tests again, but I don't want to see him wasting his last few years playing hit & giggle crap. Smith is our third youngest ever captain. I'm just hoping his batting doesn't suffer.


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  2. #92
    Contributor cataphract's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    Wasn't aware Sri Lanka had been moved to a different part of the world. As much a part of the Subcontinent as Britain is of Europe or Japan of Asia.
    I stand corrected. Two five-fors then. Btw the UAE is for cricketing purposes, the subcontinent - the wickets there are tailor made to Pakistani tastes. The UAE is also where Lyon was disastrous two months ago, returning 3 wickets in 4 innings, while Pakistan blooded rookie spinners against a listless Aussie batting lineup.



    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    So a couple of bowlers who are too shit to play real cricket are better than Lyon at hit & giggle? I think you've misunderstood who is being 'damned' by that comparison. So he isn't a good limited overs bowler? You really couldn't pay me to care. We've tried at least 4 or 5 other spinners over the past few years in Tests & they were all terrible. We keep coming back to Lyon because he takes wickets and he takes them regularly.
    Please, stop using arguments from 2006. Limited overs cricket has matured into something far bigger than "hit and giggle", and complete bowlers are able to adjust their game to win all formats of cricket. Btw if you're calling ODIs hit and giggle you really are stuck in the 1970s. Lyon isn't used in limited overs because of his shit economy. If he does take wickets, it's after conceding 50 odd runs in 10 overs, losing the game. You keep coming back to Lyon because your spin cupboard is empty. Lyon is the least worst option you have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    As for the Australian team, there is a 'turning point' of another type. Steve Smith has been named captain for the remainder of the series. Clarke is not expected to return in a hurry, if at all. I think he will play tests again, but I don't want to see him wasting his last few years playing hit & giggle crap. Smith is our third youngest ever captain. I'm just hoping his batting doesn't suffer.
    Steve Smith is a good change for sure, but your spin department needs an overhaul as much as India's pace department.

  3. #93
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cataphract View Post
    I stand corrected. Two five-fors then. Btw the UAE is for cricketing purposes, the subcontinent - the wickets there are tailor made to Pakistani tastes. The UAE is also where Lyon was disastrous two months ago, returning 3 wickets in 4 innings, while Pakistan blooded rookie spinners against a listless Aussie batting lineup.
    Yet he still takes wickets at a highly respectable strike rate & a decent average for his type of bowler. I guess he has learned how to bowl in the conditions he faces most often.

    Please, stop using arguments from 2006. Limited overs cricket has matured into something far bigger than "hit and giggle", and complete bowlers are able to adjust their game to win all formats of cricket. Btw if you're calling ODIs hit and giggle you really are stuck in the 1970s. Lyon isn't used in limited overs because of his shit economy. If he does take wickets, it's after conceding 50 odd runs in 10 overs, losing the game.
    As I have expressed numerous times in the past, the only time I give a shit about ODI is World Cups. If anything the increasing frequency of matches over the past 10 years & the creation of T20 has made it even less significant. We pick the best bowler for the best situation. We pick guys for ODIs who are shit test bowlers. This is not new. We have done this for decades. Trying to use Lyon's ODI record to buttress criticism of his test bowling is a losing argument. Of all the discussions I have had about Lyon over the past few years (including ones when I used to take your view), I have never once heard an Australian care that he doesn't bowl well in ODIs As the figures make clear, he is doing the job required and he is doing it in a manner comparable to much more highly rated bowlers.

    You keep coming back to Lyon because your spin cupboard is empty. Lyon is the least worst option you have.
    You need to get your head out of the Warne era. Lyon would have been a regular starter for Australia any time from the retirement of Benaud to the rise of Warne and he would have been a competitor for the off spinner's spot for most of the past century. He would have been a semi-regular selection during the Warne era (like Tim May, whose figures are worse). He is a good bowler. Not great, but good.

    Steve Smith is a good change for sure, but your spin department needs an overhaul as much as India's pace department.
    There aren't any other spinners out there who are pressing for a place. There is nobody tearing up the State comps. And given that we rarely pick more than one full time spinner it is more a 'position' than a 'department'. The position is currently occupied by a wicket taking Test bowler. I doubt 'in again out again' stupidity of the past will be repeated any time soon. That path is a proven failure.
    Last edited by Bigfella; 17 Dec 14, at 08:22.


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  4. #94
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    India a red hot chance to win this test. Looks like 4 down for 300ish at stumps and Australia with 4 injured fast bowlers. Could be the best chance India will ever have to win at the Gabba.


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  5. #95
    Armchair Worrier Senior Contributor bolo121's Avatar
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    nuh uh.
    I remember back when sehwag scored big and everybody said the same thing.
    We promptly imploded the next day.
    For Gallifrey! For Victory! For the end of time itself!!

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    India a red hot chance to win this test. Looks like 4 down for 300ish at stumps and Australia with 4 injured fast bowlers. Could be the best chance India will ever have to win at the Gabba.
    They are saying Starc and Hazlewood will bowl again. Marsh is out though. Too bad. Good thing for Australia is Johnson seems unaffected by the heat.

    I'm happy Vijay got a century. Poor fellow got dismissed on 99 in the last match. He has improved by leaps and bounds from how he played fast bowling when he started out. Dhawan unfortunately, seems like a lost cause outside the subcontinent. BCCI's stupid oppposition to DRS cost Pujara his wicket. Rahane was the victim in the last match (at a very crucial time no less). The Aussies got a howler or two in the previous match as well I think. Don't know when the BCCI will get their heads out of their backsides on that one.

  7. #97
    Armchair Worrier Senior Contributor bolo121's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firestorm View Post
    Don't know when the BCCI will get their heads out of their backsides on that one.
    Will never happen. You cant bribe a machine.
    For Gallifrey! For Victory! For the end of time itself!!

  8. #98
    Armchair Worrier Senior Contributor bolo121's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bolo121 View Post
    nuh uh.
    I remember back when sehwag scored big and everybody said the same thing.
    We promptly imploded the next day.
    Was proven right again. knocked out by lunch for 408. Not even a 100 runs on the board today.
    At least no Lyon based shamelessness, back to the traditional morale boost we give for Aussie quicks on debut.
    Last edited by bolo121; 18 Dec 14, at 03:21.
    For Gallifrey! For Victory! For the end of time itself!!

  9. #99
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Just watched Steve Smith bring up a century on his debut as Captain - at the age of 25. That is twice in 2 tests after Kohli's tons. Smith now has 320 runs in this series without a dismissal. He & Johnson are saving Australia's bacon after a shaky start this morning. This test has more swings than a kid's playground.


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  10. #100
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firestorm View Post
    They are saying Starc and Hazlewood will bowl again. Marsh is out though. Too bad. Good thing for Australia is Johnson seems unaffected by the heat.
    It would have been better for us if Starc hadn't been able to bowl. Serves up more pies than a school tuck shop. Johnson is better, but not enough. Hazelwood & Watson looked the best of the quicks, while Lyon did a good job under trying circumstances. The Gabba day one is no place for a finger spinner. Despite getting some rough treatment he took some wickets.

    I'm happy Vijay got a century. Poor fellow got dismissed on 99 in the last match. He has improved by leaps and bounds from how he played fast bowling when he started out. Dhawan unfortunately, seems like a lost cause outside the subcontinent. BCCI's stupid oppposition to DRS cost Pujara his wicket. Rahane was the victim in the last match (at a very crucial time no less). The Aussies got a howler or two in the previous match as well I think. Don't know when the BCCI will get their heads out of their backsides on that one.
    Vijay did a great job. Dhawan lives in Melbourne. He should play some grade cricket here. it would help him adjust to faster pitches. The whole DRS thing has been a fiasco. It evened out in the last test (about 3 bad decision each), but I think India is behind overall.

    This test is still every evenly poised. Both these teams have very talented players & poor/erratic players. Both have holes in them you could drive an oil tanker through. Makes it an interesting & surprisingly even contest. All it will take is one or two good individual performances to swing this either way. I think Australia has the edge simply because they are the home team & also a bit of an edge in confidence. I feel India is more likely to drop its head than we are.

    India still has a great chance here, but need to grasp it. Harris is back for the next test and M. Marsh may be dropped if injured.


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  11. #101
    Armchair Worrier Senior Contributor bolo121's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    Just watched Steve Smith bring up a century on his debut as Captain - at the age of 25. That is twice in 2 tests after Kohli's tons. Smith now has 320 runs in this series without a dismissal. He & Johnson are saving Australia's bacon after a shaky start this morning. This test has more swings than a kid's playground.
    As usual team India is Australia's best friend.
    Century to Steve Smith on debut as captain and a enjoyable 67 for Johnson.
    The aussie top bowler is scoring more runs than our captain!
    For Gallifrey! For Victory! For the end of time itself!!

  12. #102
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bolo121 View Post
    As usual team India is Australia's best friend.
    Works both ways. Did you see how our first four wickets fell? Dumb, dumber & dumbest. Warner gets a pass because he just socred two tons, the others don't.

    Century to Steve Smith on debut as captain and a enjoyable 67 for Johnson.
    Smith is going from good to great at a rapid place. I think we are seeing the emergence of some future greats on both sides this series.

    The aussie top bowler is scoring more runs than our captain!
    If he was our top bowler you blokes wouldn't have got 400.


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  13. #103
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    I take it back Firestorm. India seem determined to throw this away. if it was Pakistan you'd set up an inquiry. When you see Test opening bowlers being belted about by a no.11 in his first test who averages 10 at club cricket level (club, not first class) then you just have to shake your head.

    Australia 95 runs up at tea. India needing to do something pretty good to win this.


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  14. #104
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    The first two tests of this series have reminded me why Test Cricket is my favourite sport. These teams are evenly balanced. Both have some very good aspects and some poorer ones. Each Test saw brilliant individual performances, fine team performances and great swings in momentum. It isn't good enough in Tests to have one or even two good days. You need to play well at the right times. India was in a position to win both these games & couldn't quite do it. Australia fought its way back numerous times and was able to press for victory.

    India was on top at stumps at day 1 in Brisbane and despite a day 2 collapse, made a total that usually guarantees victory at Brisbane. Early on day 3 Australia looked like we could be all out 100 behind, and again for about the same score. Even after we got 97 ahead India had a chance. At 1/70 odd at stumps a lead of over 200 seemed possible. The collapse at the start of Day 4 has been attributed to Dhawan being unable to bat, but that seems a bit weak to me. The next batsman down should be ready to bat straight away anyway. The clatter of Indian wickets is a reminder that Johnson is one of the most dangerous players in international cricket. Had India got another 50 runs we might have crumbled & lost the match. Quite a remarkable game.

    To my eyes India has the better batting line up here, though in Warner & Smith Australia possesses two of the best batsmen. Australia has a better bowling attack, though India has (on paper) the better spinner & in each test we have had at least one bowler who was very poor. We've also had one bowler make his international debut - something which is always a risk. I think we have a distinct advantage in captaincy. I have always thought Dhoni a good leader but a poor on field tactician. The Brisbane Test has done nothing to change that perspective. India also seems to be more fragile mentally. There seems to be a long running tendency to drop heads & get distracted when events go against them. Even so, there is no reason India can't win a Test. Another Australian player will be making his Test debut in Melbourne (batsman Joe Burns), a potential opportunity for India. On the down side, Harris is back, so no more Mitch Starc pies.

    Looking forward to Boxing Day. Look for me in the crowd.


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  15. #105
    Armchair Worrier Senior Contributor bolo121's Avatar
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    The attitude of the captains shines through each team's performance.
    Steve smith was clearly enjoying himself and relishing the fight.
    Dhoni was his usual slightly lost indifferent captain cool self. Under that bland expression is a guy who wants to be elsewhere in coloured clothes.
    For Gallifrey! For Victory! For the end of time itself!!

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