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Thread: Ukraine Elections and Political Developments

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeeCoffee View Post
    Seems to be numerous nations considered as shit / shitholes.

    Seriously there are many worse shitholes throughout the world that would make both Russia and Ukraine appear relatively well off.

    Of course I'm not naming any. Just look at the roster of the United Nations and check off the countries that are obviously close to hopelessness or despair from an economic perspective...or just at the butt end of humanity. Just sayin'.
    True. There is Africa and such.

    But Russia, with all her natural resources and what not, could provide a much, much better life for her people. With better leadership...

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    There is plenty of free press and critical discussion of Government policies and individual appointments - I do not fear to criticise where I feel it right. I do not worry that I might be shot or tried on some rubbish charge; protesters are not arrested en masse. There is a genuine and growing opposition on both sides of the current Government course, one more reformist and the other more pro Muscovite. None of the opposition have been locked up, poisoned or shot. As for the economy Muscovy is going backwards while Ukraine is moving forward.

    As regards Muscovite media bans I think it is widely accepted - not only in Ukraine - that Muscovite media such as RT and Sputnik are not 'news' sites in the ordinary sense of the word. Unless you hadn't noticed Muscovy has been waging an unprovoked war of aggressive imperialism against Ukraine for over 3yrs and I do not find it 'extreme' to bar the propaganda of an aggressor. As it is being Ukrainian is regarded as 'extreme' in Moscow; the Ukrainian Literature Library in Moscow was closed and the Director (a Muscovite Lady, Natalya Sharina) charged with inciting ethnic hatred and spreading "anti-Russian propaganda"; she was banned from saying anything to the press and given a suspended sentence. Presumably it is "anti-Russian propaganda" just to assert that Ukraine and Ukrainians have a separate identity and a considerable body of their own literature? Just the same as Moscow tries to steal Kyivan Rus history; Volodymyr the Great (the first Orthodox ruler of Kyiv) becomes Vladimir the Great and claimed to be the founder of Muscovite Orthodoxy, statues are built of him in Moscow and Putin claims Crimea was always Muscovite since that is where this Kyivan Prince, who never heard of let alone visited Moscow (which did not exist at the time) was baptised. Anna of Kyiv (who married the King of France) is referred to as "a Russian Princess" but again never heard of nor visited Moscow in her lifetime. To assert that there was once a Crimean Tatar Khanate and there still exists a separate Tatar identity and culture is 'extremist' in the same way that asserting that there is separate Ukrainian language, literature or history is "anti-Russian propaganda"; presumably to assert a separate Circassian identity and history would be 'treason'? Greater Muscovy as it is today is the last Empire where the slightest hint of a historical truth that not all the peoples over which they claim some right to rule derive their identity from Moscow must be heretical; a challenge to the current Checkist orthodox line of history, whether it be founded in Marxist historical revolution theory or todays neo Tsarism. But Ukrainians are the 'fascists' right? They must be! They do not exist!

    In the rest of the world history stays largely the same and the present changes; in Muscovy the opposite happens; the everyday life remains the same for practically all the people but the history is always changing.
    I don't know much about this Anna. But, presumably, like Vladimir, she was a part of the Rurik Dynasty. Who originate from where? Yes, Novgorod. Which is Russia now. Novgorod, essentially, conquered Kiev before Kiev became capital of Rus:

    Rurik led the Rus' until his death in about 879, bequeathing his kingdom to his kinsman, Prince Oleg, as regent for his young son, Igor.[38][45] In 880-82, Oleg led a military force south along the Dnieper river, capturing Smolensk and Lyubech before reaching Kiev, where he deposed and killed Askold and Dir, proclaimed himself prince, and declared Kiev the "mother of Rus' cities."[46][47]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus%27

    Ukrainians do not own that history. All three peoples, Russians, Ukrainians, Belarusians, descend from the Rus, whether you like it or not.

  2. #62
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    But, yes, of course Circassians, Chechens, Tatars (Russian/Kazanian and Crimean), or Buryats in Siberia, or the fucking Chukchi in the far North, all have own, distinct identities. Only an idiot would say otherwise. Russia has 180 different peoples within her. Many live in their own Republics, with wide autonomy, their language co-official with Russian, etc. In Tatarstan, for example, Tatar language is taught in schools MORE than Russian, supposedly, a constant flashpoint over there, between the Tatar nationalists, who want their language to continue to dominate in their Republic, understandably; and Russian and plenty of Tatar parents, who would rather their children studied more the national tongue.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_One View Post
    True. There is Africa and such.

    But Russia, with all her natural resources and what not, could provide a much, much better life for her people. With better leadership...
    Prosperity and liberty will only come when the Checka ends.


    Quote Originally Posted by The_One View Post
    I don't know much about this Anna. But, presumably, like Vladimir, she was a part of the Rurik Dynasty. Who originate from where? Yes, Novgorod. Which is Russia now. Novgorod, essentially, conquered Kiev before Kiev became capital of Rus:
    Putin mentioned Anna as "a Russian Princess" in a recent visit to France. Novgorod also was free of Muscovite shackles originally and has a claim - as you say - to being the original Rus (Viking) land. That Kyiv superseded was most likely due to it's relative proximity to Constantinople and the Greeks then living in Crimea. Where is Moscow? It did not exist.


    Quote Originally Posted by The_One View Post
    Ukrainians do not own that history. All three peoples, Russians, Ukrainians, Belarusians, descend from the Rus, whether you like it or not.
    So those Princes and Princesses of Kievan Rus who never went to nor heard of Moscow - let alone Muscovy - are Muscovite just as much as Ukrainian?

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Prosperity and liberty will only come when the Checka ends.




    Putin mentioned Anna as "a Russian Princess" in a recent visit to France. Novgorod also was free of Muscovite shackles originally and has a claim - as you say - to being the original Rus (Viking) land. That Kyiv superseded was most likely due to it's relative proximity to Constantinople and the Greeks then living in Crimea. Where is Moscow? It did not exist.




    So those Princes and Princesses of Kievan Rus who never went to nor heard of Moscow - let alone Muscovy - are Muscovite just as much as Ukrainian?
    This isn't about Moscow. Moscow became the capital of Russia much later. St. Petersburg was also capital for a long time. So what? Novgorod was the original Rus city state. Novgorod supercedes Kiev, sorry

    Agree about Cheka though. It's why my father dislikes Putin, who is KGB. He is military to the bone, to this day. Soviet and Russian military never liked KGB/FSB. Consider them cowards who torture and kill unarmed people without honor...

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_One View Post
    This isn't about Moscow. Moscow became the capital of Russia much later. St. Petersburg was also capital for a long time. So what? Novgorod was the original Rus city state. Novgorod supercedes Kiev, sorry
    It is about Muscovy! They are invading Ukraine so it has to be! Nor was Muscovy ever part of old Rus unlike Novgorod, modern day Belarus etc... Muscovy started off collecting taxes for the Mongols and still thinks it has this right over the regions and nations that are NOT Muscovite; they are the conceptual heirs of the Mongols whereas in Kyiv we have a more Western tradition; how many Greek Catholics are there in Muscovy? On top of that they attempt to steal every piece of history that actually belongs to those they claim this sort of kinship with - a kinship they for bizarre reason makes it 'anti Russian' to speak the truth about your own national history or traditions and as these traditions - like Anna of Kyiv - are "all Russian" (notwithstanding that Moscow did not exist in Anna's lifetime) they assume some sort 'destiny' or divine mission to rule their neighbours. It is BS. Muscovy did NOT get Orthodoxy from Volodymyr the Great but from Kyivan Rus Missionaries; Anna was NOT "a Russian Princess" she was a Princess of Kyivan Rus. Even St Petersburg is built on land that was formerly Swedish!

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    It is about Muscovy! They are invading Ukraine so it has to be! Nor was Muscovy ever part of old Rus unlike Novgorod, modern day Belarus etc... Muscovy started off collecting taxes for the Mongols and still thinks it has this right over the regions and nations that are NOT Muscovite; they are the conceptual heirs of the Mongols whereas in Kyiv we have a more Western tradition; how many Greek Catholics are there in Muscovy? On top of that they attempt to steal every piece of history that actually belongs to those they claim this sort of kinship with - a kinship they for bizarre reason makes it 'anti Russian' to speak the truth about your own national history or traditions and as these traditions - like Anna of Kyiv - are "all Russian" (notwithstanding that Moscow did not exist in Anna's lifetime) they assume some sort 'destiny' or divine mission to rule their neighbours. It is BS. Muscovy did NOT get Orthodoxy from Volodymyr the Great but from Kyivan Rus Missionaries; Anna was NOT "a Russian Princess" she was a Princess of Kyivan Rus. Even St Petersburg is built on land that was formerly Swedish!
    St. Petersburg is on formerly Swedish land that was won in a war, yes. Or Finnish land, actually, also Everyone has own point of view on that too hehe

    But, Novgorod was and is the original Russian city

    Even the prototype Kremlin is there :D

    First ruler of Kiev was who? Oleg of Novgorod: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleg_of_Novgorod

    But arguing this with you is useless. You said it yourself:

    It is about Muscovy! They are invading Ukraine so it has to be!
    You are brainwashed with Russophobic propaganda of modern Ukraine. You are a lost cause.

    I will just say one thing though.

    It is laughable to me, when Ukrainian media reported, before, how your "cyborgs" fought and killed or captured some "Russian Spetsnaz" at Donetsk Airport and such.

    You should pray to God Russia never all out INVADES Ukraine.

    Because if your Azov clowns ever have to actually face these guys in battle

    They will get torn to shreds, and you know it as well as I do...

    Not to mention if they ever start hitting your guys with Kalibr missiles, off the Black Sea


    Muscovy hasn't even STARTED "invading" Ukraine yet. Don't pick a fight you could never win, my brother, that's my advice to you.

    Anyway, some Crimean news today:

    Jehovah's Witness in Crimea 'ordered to renounce faith to be drafted into Russian army'

    175,000 worshippers criminalised when Russian judges ruled their religion violated anti-extremism law in April

    Greg Wilford 14 hours ago 6 comments



    Jehovah's Witnesses are reportedly being pressured into military service Getty

    Crimean authorities may have breached international laws by ordering a Jehovah's Witness to prove he has abandoned his faith before being drafted into the occupying Russian army, according to a human rights monitor.

    Members of the Christian denomination, which is deeply opposed to military service, were previously allowed to sign up for alternative civilian service in Russia, where men have to complete a year's draft in the army between the ages of 18-27.

    But there have been several reports of Jehovah's Witnesses being denied the right to serve as civilians after the religion was banned by the country's Supreme Court in April.

    175,000 worshippers were criminalised when judges ruled that their religion violated an anti-extremism law, paving the way for 395 local chapters to be shut down.

    Russian military officials in Crimea have since told a Jehovah's Witness to provide evidence he has changed his faith before he is allowed to join their ranks, according to Jehovah's Witnesses In Russia.

    Paperwork said to have been issued by a military centre in the region said Jehovah's Witnesses could start civilian service "only on condition of renouncing their religious beliefs".

    The order is thought to breach the Geneva Convention, which bars armies from conscripting citizens in occupied territories, stating: "The Occupying Power may not compel protected persons to serve in its armed or auxiliary forces.

    "No pressure or propaganda which aims at securing voluntary enlistment is permitted.”

    Russia has continued to conscript soldiers from Crimea into its army, despite the United Nations recognising them as an occupying force in the region following a resolution passed in December 2016.

    Crimean conscripts are deployed across Russia, which appears to violate another Geneva Convention article barring "individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the occupying power".

    Vladimir Putin has faced calls to stop conscription in Crimea from Ukraine's foreign affairs ministry, according to Newsweek.

    Jehovah's Witnesses have reported other human rights violations, including Russian authorities raiding peaceful meetings, following the Supreme Court ruling, which is set to be appealed in July.

    A Danish member has been arrested and is reportedly facing up to 10 years in prison.
    Jehovah's Witness in Crimea 'ordered to renounce faith to be drafted into Russian army' | The Independent

    Well, whatever the Ukrainian foreign ministry may have to say, Putin doesn't give a shit. All the Crimeans are passport-holding Russian citizens now, and that means their young men are subject to the universal conscription, same as all other young men in the nation.

    Over 2,000 Crimean boys were drafted this year

    and about same number every year before, in 2015 and 16.

    Back in '15, Governor Sergey Aksyonov personally saw off the first batch of Crimean conscripts


    Most Crimeans, majority, don't mind serving, I think.

    Like, one of my own cousins was just drafted this year, actually. And uncle Alik is very, very proud of it. He wrote how seeing his Misha off was "one of the happiest days of my life", I kid you not. To him, the modern Russian military is the rightful heir to the Red Army that he had himself served in for all those years...

    I can't say if all Crimean parents feel that way, obviously. So far, no protests though

    Now, as to JWs.

    Before, they, and others who, due to their pacifist religion or something (for example, members of Adventist churches also) could get out of regular military service.

    If you claim a conscientious objection, in Russia, you can go into Alternative Service instead.

    You can be a hospital nurse/orderly

    clean the streets

    or deliver mail for the Post of Russia

    among other equally exciting options lol

    But now that Putin and the Supreme Court have banned the JW Church, their religion is illegal, and therefore, they can no longer claim this, as Jehovah's Witnesses. They have to publicly renounce their bad faith first... Though, if they ain't JW, I don't understand how, on what basis, could they then even claim Alternative...

    It's gonna be very weird. We'll see what happens in future. There will be cases like this all around Russia, I'm sure...

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_One View Post
    St. Petersburg is on formerly Swedish land that was won in a war, yes. Or Finnish land, actually, also Everyone has own point of view on that too hehe
    Swedish at the time... but they never invaded Muscovy. Poltava as you correctly observe is in Ukraine.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_One View Post
    But, Novgorod was and is the original Russian city
    Rus city.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_One View Post
    But arguing this with you is useless. You said it yourself:
    You are brainwashed with Russophobic propaganda of modern Ukraine. You are a lost cause.
    If Kyivan Rus was part of the original Rus kingdom how can it be 'Rusophobic'? I am anti Putin kleptocratic checkist state that has been and is invading it's sovereign neighbour.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_One View Post
    It is laughable to me, when Ukrainian media reported, before, how your "cyborgs" fought and killed or captured some "Russian Spetsnaz" at Donetsk Airport and such.
    You should pray to God Russia never all out INVADES Ukraine.
    Because if your Azov clowns ever have to actually face these guys in battle

    They will get torn to shreds, and you know it as well as I do...
    Yea yea and those Buryiats who lost their way - like the 'little green men' in Crimea? Where did the T-90s come from? I have met Muscovite generals in Ukraine for Christ sakes!

    Quote Originally Posted by The_One View Post
    Muscovy hasn't even STARTED "invading" Ukraine yet. Don't pick a fight you could never win, my brother, that's my advice to you
    We did not pick this fight, nor do we wish it but so help me we shall not stop defending our land.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_One View Post
    Jehovah's Witness in Crimea 'ordered to renounce faith to be drafted into Russian army'
    So freedom of religion, like freedom of assembly is mere constitutional myth...

  8. #68
    A Self Important Senior Contributor troung's Avatar
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    It is about Muscovy! They are invading Ukraine so it has to be!
    Russia.

    Muscovy started off collecting taxes for the Mongols and still thinks it has this right over the regions and nations that are NOT Muscovite; they are the conceptual heirs of the Mongols whereas in Kyiv we have a more Western tradition;
    The old evil Russo-Asian hordes? Coming from Western Europeans in the 19th century it was quaint (kind of bigoted) and silly, coming from a Ukrainian in 2017...

    Nor was Muscovy ever part of old Rus unlike Novgorod, modern day Belarus etc... how many Greek Catholics are there in Muscovy? On top of that they attempt to steal every piece of history that actually belongs to those they claim this sort of kinship with - a kinship they for bizarre reason makes it 'anti Russian' to speak the truth about your own national history or traditions and as these traditions
    The Ukraine is just as "Eastern" (not Westerntm) as Western Russia. You can hate ethnic Russians (which you seem to) until you turn blue and suffocate yourself but it won't transform the Ukraine into some "Western" nation.

    ? Where did the T-90s come from? I have met Muscovite generals in Ukraine for Christ sakes!
    Were these alleged Russian Generals also selling Donald's sex tapes and divulging Trump's dealings with Putin?

    am anti Putin kleptocratic checkist state that has been and is invading it's sovereign neighbour.
    Changed up from "mafia muscovite" I see.
    To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    Russia.



    The old evil Russo-Asian hordes? Coming from Western Europeans in the 19th century it was quaint (kind of bigoted) and silly, coming from a Ukrainian in 2017...



    The Ukraine is just as "Eastern" (not Westerntm) as Western Russia. You can hate ethnic Russians (which you seem to) until you turn blue and suffocate yourself but it won't transform the Ukraine into some "Western" nation.



    Were these alleged Russian Generals also selling Donald's sex tapes and divulging Trump's dealings with Putin?



    Changed up from "mafia muscovite" I see.
    Hating Russians is the only purpose in life the Ukrops have :D

    It's literally their whole state ideology. Without Russia, there to hate and demonize and blame for all their problems, they'd all shoot themselves or something, because their lives would have no more meaning lol

    Hell, they are already killing themselves:

    Thursday, 22 June, 2017, 16:27

    Horrific statistics: 500 Donbas war veterans committed suicide

    Since the start of the war with Russia in Donbas, 500 Ukrainian army servicemen have committed suicide after their demobilization, Interior Minister Arsen Avakov writes in Facebook June 22.

    According to international statistics of military conflicts, 90-95% of their participants develop medical and social problems, with a third diagnosed for the post-traumatic syndrome often leading to suicides, the minister writes.

    *“We need a comprehensive national program targeted at the minimization of the post-traumatic syndrome. We must realize that this is a global problem in Ukraine,” Avakov says.
    Horrific statistics: 500 Donbas war veterans committed suicide

    Probably from shame, as much as anything else.

    After all, it's not the Russian military, who kicked their ass in Ilovaisk and Debaltsevo and such.

    It's regular Donbassians, for the most part.

    Even girls, like her

    or her

    or her

    or her

    or her

    or her

    or her (well, she is not local, from Serbia, actually, and the one above is from Belarus, and one above her is Russian from Russia; but, anyway, the point is, many good women have fought and continue to fight there...)



    Young teen boys

    and grandfathers with gray beards


    Among Russian volunteers, there are Orthodox Christian Slavs, Muslims, Buddhists from Siberia, and even black people lol


    French volunteers




    Serbians (lots of Serbians, only Russians and Belarusians are more, as far as "foreign" fighters)


    Italian


    Spanish


    Colombian


    German

    By mid-2015, already over 100 German citizens, mostly, like above guy, former Russian emigrants, were fighting for the separatists there: More than 100 Germans fighting for separatists in eastern Ukraine | News | DW.COM | 15.03.2015

    Even American

    Russell "Texas" Bentley, I read a lot about him, pretty unforgettable guy lol

    'We are preventing a third world war': the foreigners fighting with Ukrainian rebels
    A Serb, a Texan, and a Colombian Walk Into a War…

    And here, is the sort of guys who go from abroad to fight for Ukraine, neo Nazis and white power guys mostly:
    [IMG]https://vice-images.vice.com/images/content-images-crops/2015/08/25/european-british-fighters-in-ukraine-920-body-image-1440516263-size_1000.jpg?output-quality=75&resize=1000:*[/IMG]
    Meet the European Fighters Who Have Gone to War in Ukraine
    Ukraine conflict: 'White power' warrior from Sweden - BBC News

    But not all, of course.

    For example, a former US Army Ranger of Ukrainian background was killed in Donbass in 2014, fighting as a volunteer for Kiev: The Only American Fighting for Ukraine Dies in Battle

    So, both sides have foreigners among them.

    You tell me who the bad guys are...

  10. #70
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    Prior to the American Civil War was the Crimean War.
    Surely the roots of that conflict still hold far-reaching historical tentacles within today's hostilities. Cultural animosities continue in having deep roots when passed down through generations.
    The same could be said about many ongoing conflicts around the globe. Sadly it's just the way it is IMHO.

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    Something else.

    Today, is the Crimean Tatars' National Flag Day.

    Naturally, it is being celebrated big in Ukraine, which is trying to portray itself as the champion of the Tatars.

    However, here is something Ukrainian and mainstream Western media likely will not show you: the actual Crimean Tatars in Crimea are also perfectly free to celebrate their flag in peace, nobody stops them or arrests them for it.

    Today, there were car processions carrying Tatar flags in many traditionally Tatar communities in Crimea



    Many cars also carried Russian and Crimean flags






    Basically, no different than in Kiev, only there they had Ukrainian flags, instead of Russian



    So much for all the discrimination and mistreatment of Tatars, eh? :D

    Also, btw, recently, there was a Russian language and literature knowledge Olympiad among Crimean children, 12 year old Tatar kid, Seit-Ali Irikh, won!


    :D

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeeCoffee View Post
    Prior to the American Civil War was the Crimean War.
    Surely the roots of that conflict still hold far-reaching historical tentacles within today's hostilities. Cultural animosities continue in having deep roots when passed down through generations.
    The same could be said about many ongoing conflicts around the globe. Sadly it's just the way it is IMHO.
    Among most people in Crimea, there is little animosity. Because most there are Crimean first. Crimean, period. Regardless of individual ethnic background. Crimean flag unites all

    Even on May 9th, 2014, when, for the first time since Crimea's annexation/restoration/call it whatever you wish to Russia, Crimean Marines rode out on the Red Square for first time in two decades, to join other Russian forces for the Victory Day Parade, their APCs rode under the Crimean flags

    And he walls of the Kremlin shuddered with the roar of cheering crowds. What an amazing day...

  13. #73
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    Yep.New propagandist detected.Sing,comrade!Let the music play.About the girls of Ilovaisk.And the happiness,blah-blah...

    You guys lack any imagination.On the other hand there are plenty of imbeciles.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    Yep.New propagandist detected.Sing,comrade!Let the music play.About the girls of Ilovaisk.And the happiness,blah-blah...

    You guys lack any imagination.On the other hand there are plenty of imbeciles.
    And what do I "propagate"? Other than the side of the story you don't want to hear?

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    But, what to expect from a Romanian lol

    I know which side your people were on in the 40s... Romanians occupied Crimea for the Germans back then. My grandmother killed plenty of your kind. Partizan, she was, back then

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