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Thread: Ukraine Elections and Political Developments

  1. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Moscow did not exist when Volodimyr the Great of Kyiv took converted to Orthodox Christianity so it is hard to claim he was also a Prince of a non existent city. They claim he was one of theirs - along with Anna of Kyiv who married Henry 1 of France but neither ever heard, let alone visited 'Muscovy'. It is a Muscovite myth akin to as if Canada claimed Richard l who fought Saladin was an old King of Canada. It's not possible.
    Who the hell cares about Muscovy? We're talking RUSSIANS! Get off your high horse about Muscovy. Russia is NOT Moscow.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Who is "we"
    NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    and where does "Europe" end?
    Geographically, the Urals. For our purposes, NATO members.
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 04 Mar 18, at 19:19.

  2. #332
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    As for clean up - certainly; many including myself are unhappy at the speed of reform.
    Without addressing the issue of corruption - as far as the economic front goes, there's one area in particular where Ukraine can fill a niche while earning hard currency and shoring up its industrial base. So far I'm surprised that Ukraine hasn't done more in going all in on pursuing weapons exports.

    The US does have need for arms and weapons systems to provide states that we have relationships that have a preference for Russian/ex-Soviet technology. We throw a lot of money around in military aid across the world and have difficulty in procuring the type of equipment these countries want. Afghanistan in particular comes to mind. Ukraine should take all measures necessary to fulfill these niches.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 05 Mar 18, at 02:57.

  3. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Who the hell cares about Muscovy? We're talking RUSSIANS! Get off your high horse about Muscovy. Russia is NOT Moscow.
    Sir I think you may be insufficiently conversant regarding the history. The 'Grand Duchy of Moscow' did not exist until the mid 1300s. Volodymyr the Great was Christened in 987AD. Anna of Kyiv was married to Henry l of France in 1051AD. The first Muscovite 'Duke of Moscow' - which he called himself at first - to claim to be "Tsar of all the Rus" (implying Empire) was Ivan lV known as "the terrible" in 1547AD. Ukraine was then part of the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth and Muscovy had never been part of Kyivan Rus of old. They stole the history, make statues of Volodymyr the Great (who they call Vladimir) and claim what is truly the Ukrainian heritage. Therefore I refer to them as they are - Muscovites; the Muscovite Empire, because Empires still exist, but Muscovy has always been expansionist.
    Can a Canadian claim Richard Coeur de Lion was an old King of Canada because a distant relative is now your Queen? No. Canada did not exist during the third Crusade. Can Muscovy claim that Anna of Kyiv was a "Russian" (as Putin did). It's like you claiming some old King of England was Canadian. It's BS from a factual view. Richard l would presumably have to be a Quebecois as he only spoke French.

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    NATO
    Sir I wish in no way to demean the long vigil of the NATO allies or any who served in any capacity in that silent struggle. Many countries gained their liberty from that long vigil and the debt can hardly be repayed. There were also those who stood for freedom within the "Evil Empire" though that played a part. Also economic factors. NATO alone was not the cause of the collapse but without it undoubtedly the collapse would not have occured.

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Geographically, the Urals. For our purposes, NATO members.
    See we have a village in Ukraine that claims to be the centre of Europe. We are keeping Ukraine free now so when someone claims to have cleared them out of "Eastern Europe" I must question what they mean.

    Yes the 'victory' of the Cold War was great indeed. I would not be here now without it. It was not finished. And beyond Ukraine are other old nations longing for liberty and self determination from the Muscovite Empire; Chechnya you know of, Georgia as well, but Circassia, Tatarstan and the whole lot of other peoples in the north and in the east who previously went about their slow lives in peace according to custom (and some still do apparently in the spaces) before Muscovy enlisted them into being Soviet citizens - or now 'Russians' because if you are not 'one of us' you are an enemy. In Polish - and remember the larger part of what is today was part of the Tsarist Empire and then the Soviet, this dismemberment of the Empire idea is called "Prometeizm" (Prometheism in English). Thus this statue in Tiblisi:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Prometheus.jpg
    Last edited by snapper; 05 Mar 18, at 05:38.

  4. #334
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    Regarding arms exports I do not know a lot about the export side but someone moaned at me that were exporting Oplot tanks rather than using them. I forget where they were being sent to - Bangladesh or Malaysia maybe. We are very keen to get in on new procurement and development orders with western partners, particularly any projects of our neighbours of course. I spoke fairly recently to an air force General who is dealing with this sort of thing and asked him (naturally) about the air force. His view was that all the Soviet era models had to go long term and Ukraine had adopt (and prove we could help make) western types of warplanes, be it the Eurofighter or the Gripen or some US type.

  5. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Sir I think you may be insufficiently conversant regarding the history. The 'Grand Duchy of Moscow' did not exist until the mid 1300s. Volodymyr the Great was Christened in 987AD. Anna of Kyiv was married to Henry l of France in 1051AD. The first Muscovite 'Duke of Moscow' - which he called himself at first - to claim to be "Tsar of all the Rus" (implying Empire) was Ivan lV known as "the terrible" in 1547AD. Ukraine was then part of the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth and Muscovy had never been part of Kyivan Rus of old. They stole the history, make statues of Volodymyr the Great (who they call Vladimir) and claim what is truly the Ukrainian heritage. Therefore I refer to them as they are - Muscovites; the Muscovite Empire, because Empires still exist, but Muscovy has always been expansionist.
    Again, WHO THE HELL CARES? Did or did not Keivan Rus rule the lands that are now Moscow? Yes! Did or did not the people of Keivan Rus settle in the area that is now Moscow? Yes! Who the hell cares when Moscow came into existence? It was the people of the Keivan Rus who built it! Get your history right. First mention of Moscow was 1147 and was burned down 1237. The period KNOWN as the MONGOL INVASION OF RUS!

    They're called the Russians! And they are related to the Ukrainians! Period.

    Here, go re-write Wiki and prove that you know better than Rus scholars. A simple google shows you just pretend to know everything.

    Moscow - Wikipedia

    What you're saying is that Americans and Canadians ain't related because Alfred the Great never visited New York. WHO THE HELL FREAKING CARES!

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Sir I wish in no way to demean the long vigil of the NATO allies or any who served in any capacity in that silent struggle. Many countries gained their liberty from that long vigil and the debt can hardly be repayed. There were also those who stood for freedom within the "Evil Empire" though that played a part. Also economic factors. NATO alone was not the cause of the collapse but without it undoubtedly the collapse would not have occured.
    Strange you do demean it as if the Ukraines was the be all-end all of Russian resistance.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    See we have a village in Ukraine that claims to be the centre of Europe. We are keeping Ukraine free now so when someone claims to have cleared them out of "Eastern Europe" I must question what they mean.

    Yes the 'victory' of the Cold War was great indeed. I would not be here now without it. It was not finished. And beyond Ukraine are other old nations longing for liberty and self determination from the Muscovite Empire; Chechnya you know of, Georgia as well, but Circassia, Tatarstan and the whole lot of other peoples in the north and in the east who previously went about their slow lives in peace according to custom (and some still do apparently in the spaces) before Muscovy enlisted them into being Soviet citizens - or now 'Russians' because if you are not 'one of us' you are an enemy. In Polish - and remember the larger part of what is today was part of the Tsarist Empire and then the Soviet, this dismemberment of the Empire idea is called "Prometeizm" (Prometheism in English). Thus this statue in Tiblisi:
    I don't care. You were given a chance to clean up your act and prove to Germany and France that you were worthy. You screwed up. Not our fault and not our problem.
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 05 Mar 18, at 18:43.

  6. #336
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Regarding arms exports I do not know a lot about the export side but someone moaned at me that were exporting Oplot tanks rather than using them. I forget where they were being sent to - Bangladesh or Malaysia maybe. We are very keen to get in on new procurement and development orders with western partners, particularly any projects of our neighbours of course. I spoke fairly recently to an air force General who is dealing with this sort of thing and asked him (naturally) about the air force. His view was that all the Soviet era models had to go long term and Ukraine had adopt (and prove we could help make) western types of warplanes, be it the Eurofighter or the Gripen or some US type.
    Sure, converting the Ukrainian military over to a Western interoperability basis is the long-term goal, but that doesn't mean Ukraine can't maintain a profitable side hustle (and I really hate to put it so bluntly when we're talking instruments of destruction, and while Ukraine is at war).

    Last decade there was a $300 million Pentagon contract for 7.62×39 ammunition for the Afghan military that ended up getting awarded to two kids out of Florida who ended up laundering Chinese-made ammunition they bought on the cheap from corrupt generals in Albania. They ended up getting arrested for violating US arms exports law and fraud as the ammunition was old, unserviceable, and they misrepresented its Chinese origin. They even made a movie about it. That's an example of an area where Ukraine could find openings.

    The Afghan Army requested T-72s a few years ago, and last I checked, the Indians paid the full amount to Russia to have them deliver them. Situations like that, Ukraine could possibly offer the T-84.

    Egypt maintains a mish-mash of US and Soviet equipment. Could be opportunities for modernization of equipment and supply there as well. Maybe not for T-84s as Egypt has recently placed an order for 500 T-90s, but perhaps for lighter equipment.

    Smaller countries are recipients of GWoT funds, and many use ex-Soviet equipment. Lots of potential niches that could be carved out, may as well leverage the manufacturing base and technical know-how that still exists from ex-Soviet times to help fund the Westernization of Ukraine's military.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 05 Mar 18, at 11:24.

  7. #337
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    The Ukrainian Defence Industries is wrecked with problems. I find it extremely disconcerting that they still need the JAVELIN when STUGNA-P has not reached effective numbers yet. T-84 exports is limited to just 12 vehicles to Georgia. The thing, a majority of their defence manufacturing expertise have already left for more lucrative jobs in Russia and China.

  8. #338
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    An analysis of the current Muscovite Order of Battle: http://www.understandingwar.org/site..._ISW%20CTP.pdf

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    So, i guess that's their new plan after their cooperation with Brazil over several years to try for the same failed?

  11. #341
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    I am not privy to SSAU plans sadly.

  12. #342
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    Little pressie on his latest coronation for Putin from Ukraine;


  13. #343
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    Following the Naftogaz victory over Gazprom in the Stockholm arbitration case private investors have won a case in the Hague Arbitration Court for damages regarding seizures of properties in Crimea;

    "a) Russia is responsible for its actions in Crimea based on the Bilateral Investment Treaty.
    b) The so-called nationalization by the occupation authorities is a violation of the investment treaty.
    c) Russia must compensate the affected companies $159 million, as well as compensate the litigation expenses.”

  14. #344
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    Joint Investigative Team (JIT) on MH17 today in the Netherlands; The JIT "has come to the conclusion that the Buk-TELAR that shot down MH17 came from the 53rd Antiaircraft Missile Brigade based in Kursk in Russia," top Dutch investigator Wilbert Paulissen told reporters. "The 53rd Brigade is part of Russia's armed forces."



    There is also a new Bellingcat report coming out tomorrow.

  15. #345
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Happened to come across this 'documentary' called Ukraine on Fire. The REAL story, the TRUTH about Ukraine.



    The long and short of it is, Ukrainians are fascists, Americans are fascists, Europe is dying and Putin is the world’s last hope

    Ukraine shot down MH-17, we know this because Russians did their own investigation..no wonder the Brits wouldn't let them touch the Salisbury samples

    When did Oliver Stone becomes Putin's spokesman ?

    The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist -- Charles Baudelaire
    Last edited by Double Edge; 15 Jul 18, at 01:14.

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