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Thread: Ukraine Elections and Political Developments

  1. #211
    Senior Contributor Andrey Egorov's Avatar
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    First word means Great, second one is archaic, meaning Imperial State
    We're so bad, we're even bad at it

  2. #212
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    Just to clarify an issue.If I have something to say,it's about certain politics and their supporters.It's not about decent folks.
    Individuals, most of the time ,happen to fall under the tidal waves of their age.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeeCoffee View Post
    Hmm TopHatter...so as a moderator is your intent stating that the WAB forum has a "Western bias" when it comes to Russia ?
    I think when someone insults the entire Romanian nation they are probably pushing it.

  4. #214
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    Naah.If it was only that I'd really give that guy a waiver.Feel free to insult,comrades.
    Such insults aren't stains,but badges of honour.

    It's only sad there is such a myopia.And I mean this from the Russian national interest POV.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  5. #215
    Contributor NUS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    Just to clarify an issue.If I have something to say,it's about certain politics and their supporters.It's not about decent folks.
    Individuals, most of the time ,happen to fall under the tidal waves of their age.
    Oh come on! You have posted the picture of several old freacks with Stalin portrait and made a conclusion about entire stupid
    Russian nation who "glorify your own torturers and killers".

    It's like me calling all Romaian women whores because some of them are involved in prostitution and pornography bussines.
    Winter is coming.

  6. #216
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    1.Dude who liked pictures needed something similar.
    2.I haven't heard of a Nurnberg style trial or even something similar to the more modest efforts of ex WP nations.
    There,to various degrees communists were blamed for their crimes.However,in your country youh can find statues of Lenin everywhere.
    I haven't ever called Russians stupid. But you have turned into something strange,full of contradictions and paradoxes.
    Historical matters are just one example.Officially you are innocent victims of Nazi agression,while in practice you were their allies .You name installion of communism liberation.
    And you now want peaceful coexistence and the absence of NATO forces by staging maneuvers 4 times bigger than the biggest NATO maneuver,threatening with bombings and starting a war in what is Little Russia.

    Real pity and a waste of effort.Counterproductive both for the welfare of Igor Ivanovici from Solikamsk and for whatever imperial ideology shared in Kremlin.

    Really,ignore whatever legit interests your neighbours have.Is not in the interest of the medium to long term development of Russia.

    P.S Don't conclude I consider Russians as freaks.I just consider them under the "spell" of an evil system,who still has grasp on your country's soul.And it's something you will have to solve,internally.
    Last edited by Mihais; Yesterday at 11:18.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  7. #217
    Contributor NUS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    1.Dude who liked pictures needed something similar.
    2.I haven't heard of a Nurnberg style trial or even something similar to the more modest efforts of ex WP nations.
    There,to various degrees communists were blamed for their crimes.However,in your country youh can find statues of Lenin everywhere.
    I haven't ever called Russians stupid. But you have turned into something strange,full of contradictions and paradoxes.
    Call it a hard earned wisdom. Those statues of Lenin are there because Russia accepts events of the past. Being in war with your own past is a guaranteed way of self-destruction. Ukraine is the most recent example - they tried really hard to remove those Lenin statues after 2014 and even lost some lives in process. (The funny thing is, Lenin provided Soviet Ukraine with most of Eastern Ukraine lands. Soviet internal borders were really strange sometimes.)

    There are plenty of monuments to Confederation heroes in United States. There was some demands to dismantle those monuments recently and if this trend will continue, it won't end well, trust me.


    Historical matters are just one example.Officially you are innocent victims of Nazi agression,while in practice you were their allies .You name installion of communism liberation.
    Stalin was desperately trying to establish anti-Hitler coalition in 1930's but was ignored. In fact, he was the last who made non-aggression pact with Hitler. Britain and France signed it in 1938 the next day after Munich Agreement.

    As for Poland... Stalin did with Poland exactly the same thing Poland did with Czechoslovakia. Poland took a part of Czechoslovakia together with Hitler. Poland was trying to play in big boys league hoping on Western allies and, as always, lost.

    Stalin waited for two weeks to see if Poland can fight with Nazi and then moved Soviet borders several hundreds miles away from Moscow with Poland territory. Given how close Nazi were to Moscow in 1941 i wold say it was a wise choice.

    You name installion of communism liberation.
    Well, Churchill was planning to start a war agains USSR in 1945 (google operation "Unthinkable"). Only joined opinion of western generals about might of Soviet Army stopped him. Yet, the Cold war was already on his mind. Unlike Poland, Stalin had no illusions about Western "allies" and had a problem of self-defense. He solved it by moving borders to the West. You don't like being under communist rule for 40 years? Well, either this or dying again in war against Russia for other country interest. Stalin and Soviet nuclear weapons provided to Europe 40 years of peace and prosperity never seen before. With Soviet Union gone, the peace is gone and now prosperity evaporates too.

    And you now want peaceful coexistence and the absence of NATO forces by staging maneuvers 4 times bigger than the biggest NATO maneuver,threatening with bombings and starting a war in what is Little Russia.
    Real pity and a waste of effort.Counterproductive both for the welfare of Igor Ivanovici from Solikamsk and for whatever imperial ideology shared in Kremlin.
    Really,ignore whatever legit interests your neighbours have.Is not in the interest of the medium to long term development of Russia.
    It might be a shocking revelation to you, but Kremlin has zero interest in land grab. Kremlin needs markets and consumers, just like everybody else. Crimea was absolutely necessary to ensure military domination in Black Sea and cover south-western flank of Russia. But the rest of Ukraine is to big for Russia to swallow. Putin even asked local leaders in Easter Ukraine to postpone independence referendum in spring 2014. Currently Kremlin provides DNR and LNR with enough resources to survive (for internal policy reasons), but has zero interest in them.

    P.S Don't conclude I consider Russians as freaks.I just consider them under the "spell" of an evil system,who still has grasp on your country's soul.And it's something you will have to solve,internally.
    Maybe. Or maybe you've been fed with propaganda, while Brussels and Washington fucks you in the ass.

    I'm curious, how do you explain to yourself the following data:
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by NUS; Yesterday at 15:52.
    Winter is coming.

  8. #218
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    The graphic is simply the result of free borders and opportunities abroad.Is nothing permanent(most of those who left have families and kept their homes).
    Such things happened in the past and the result was always the return of the expatriates,with more experience and money.

    As for being fucked by Brussels or Washington,is not the case.The ideological issues are ignored in practice.

    We keep what is useful and ignore the rest.I know you're told about lack of independence etc... It's not the case.

    You're not telling any news about history.I know the Soviet version.Poor Stalin.History gave him so little time...

    Needless to say,you are not taking any steps towards reconciliation.So,you will still be considered the most likely enemy.

    Problem is,this is not 1939.Even worse,is not 1914.Is like 1217
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  9. #219
    Contributor NUS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    You're not telling any news about history.I know the Soviet version.
    So, what are the facts in your opinion?

    Needless to say,you are not taking any steps towards reconciliation.
    What kind of steps?

    Problem is,this is not 1939.Even worse,is not 1914.Is like 1217
    I'm afraid, i don't understand your cunning hints.
    Winter is coming.

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by NUS View Post
    Call it a hard earned wisdom. Those statues of Lenin are there because Russia accepts events of the past. Being in war with your own past is a guaranteed way of self-destruction.
    Yet the remaining Muscovite Empire is the only place where history changes more according to political whim than the present; how are the serfs?

    Quote Originally Posted by NUS View Post
    Ukraine is the most recent example - they tried really hard to remove those Lenin statues after 2014 and even lost some lives in process. (The funny thing is, Lenin provided Soviet Ukraine with most of Eastern Ukraine lands. Soviet internal borders were really strange sometimes.)
    BS Ukraine extended well beyond it's current frontier. The Muscovites in Donbass today are a result of the Holodomor repopulation program.

    Quote Originally Posted by NUS View Post
    Stalin was desperately trying to establish anti-Hitler coalition in 1930's but was ignored.
    Total rubbish. Prove it.

    Quote Originally Posted by NUS View Post
    As for Poland... Stalin did with Poland exactly the same thing Poland did with Czechoslovakia. Poland took a part of Czechoslovakia together with Hitler. Poland was trying to play in big boys league hoping on Western allies and, as always, lost
    1920 ring a bell?

    Quote Originally Posted by NUS View Post
    Stalin waited for two weeks to see if Poland can fight with Nazi and then moved Soviet borders several hundreds miles away from Moscow with Poland territory. Given how close Nazi were to Moscow in 1941 i wold say it was a wise choice.
    Given then Moscow had already agreed to invade Poland with Hitler... Molotov - Ribbentrop remember?

    Quote Originally Posted by NUS View Post
    Well, Churchill was planning to start a war agains USSR in 1945 (google operation "Unthinkable").
    "Unthinkable" was for the liberation of Poland - for which Britain went to war.

    Quote Originally Posted by NUS View Post
    It might be a shocking revelation to you, but Kremlin has zero interest in land grab. Kremlin needs markets and consumers, just like everybody else. Crimea was absolutely necessary to ensure military domination in Black Sea and cover south-western flank of Russia.
    Contradiction I think. Get real. Get free!

  11. #221
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    However to move the conversation on from the Muscovite gripes about their imperialism - Tsarist and Red the future should concern us more; one cannot change the past but can make the future after all.

    So an update the on the current situation in Ukraine: There is a proposed law that would recognise the occupied areas as "occupied areas"! This means the "ATO" (Anti Terrorist Operation) would end legally and be replaced by a military operation. This makes a difference in the command as well - if it is internal then Ministry of the Interior and therefore the SBU run things, if military then the Defence guys run it (they did originally). If it is "occupied" it also gives more freedom to liberate the area according to the proposed law. We can advance when they run away! Effectively it would free alot of needed military operations from the BS that is Minsk 2. Well these legislators are slow it seems so when the Verhoknha Rada - Parliament - broke up (week last Friday) for 'holidays'(!) this new law never made it their agenda. Thus it has to wait till the Deputies (MPs/Congress people) reconvene from their holidays in September. Bon vaccance! I am sure the troops at the front would welcome a post card whilst being shot and shelled.

    There is a strategic problem with this as well and that is "Zapad 17" military exercises (zapad meaning "west" in Russian) which is scheduled to start in September in Belarus; Muscovite troops have already started arriving there. The last Zapad exercise - in 2015 - called for the use of 90 rail cars and involved 15,000 Muscovite troops, Zapad 17 has ordered over 400 rail cars. Some (and these are NATO people) estimate the troops numbers involved could be 100,000. We do not know - they say if more 13,000 are involved then observers will be invited but deny that more than will be - as normal. Maybe they ordered the trains for nothing? Not a chance... The Baltics, Poles, Ukraine as well as Belarus are naturally apprehensive to say the least. The closure of the Suwałki gap would be easy as would the turning of the Donbass front. Even if they just stayed in Belarus (as alot of Belarusians fear) Ukraine would be surrounded on three sides. Ukraine, the Baltics and Poland could not permit such a situation and have privately informed Moscow I am told.

    So to cut to today they have just gathered about 3 divisions right on the eastern border of the occupied areas in Donbass. "They always come in August" is the saying and it has been true since 2014 and Ilovaisk. These are Guards Brigades - offensive troops - about to cross the border. One division currently on the border - which is still in our control by Kharkiv, another by Luhansk and another on the coast - aimed at Mariupol. Well that's about 60,000 of the fools all tooled up but I am confident we could now defeat them, however those August battles were to seep into September and Zapad 17 be used as more than an exercise (remember Georgia?) and they come from the north - and from Crimea across the isthmus - at the same time. Well you see the point.

    The point is - at least in my opinion - we have to get in first! We need the Rada recalled imv for this silly legality to be passed for while it is silly if we cannot act without the law then we have lost the battle internally; may as well be military rule. The dilemmas.

  12. #222
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NUS View Post
    So, what are the facts in your opinion?


    What kind of steps?



    I'm afraid, i don't understand your cunning hints.


    Facts are not opinion.Fact is for example killing x number of people.Opinion is whether you think this to be good,bad or you don't care.Or you understand the reason etc...

    Agreement or disagreement result in essence from different interpretations.Sometimes from different knowledge of facts.
    Fact is,that in 38-39 Soviet leadership was enjoyed at the prospect of a war between capitalist nations.This can be easily seen from their own words and deeds.

    Fact is that Czechoslovakia was not given an answer from Moscow at the moment of need.When hours mattered,the Soviet decision makers were unavailable.After Czechoslovakia agreed with Munich,several days later,USSR encouraged Czechoslovakia to resist.
    How one interpretes this fact is up to him.For comparison,in June 1940 the Romanian government in similar circumstances had to ask its allies for support.The Yugoslav and the Greeks refused to honor the pledge.The Turks agreed(and for this reason they have our respect to this day).But at least all of them answered in useful time.

    Fact is also that Soviet Union was not serious in negociating with France and England.The condition sine qua non was "corridors through Poland" which in practice meant military occupation of Poland.
    Btw,had this condition been met,Stalin believed the Red Army perfectly capable of war.Only after the R-M Pact it became necessary "to gain time".
    Nothing similar to what happened in Mongolia vs Japan occured.A simple,unilateral declaration of support for Poland if attacked by the Nazis.

    Since R-M needs,I hope so,no further talks,here comes Finland.
    Then comes Eastern Moldova and Bukovina.Which also transformed Romania from neutral to anti-Soviet.

    None of those facts was needed to defend Soviet Union.But all those increased the strength of the Nazis and turned neutrals into enemies.But those were useful aquisitions for further liberations.
    From Lithuania is easy to interdict iron ore shipping from Sweden.And Bessarabia is close to the only oil source of Europe outside Soviet oil.

    As for the benefits of communism,the almost unanimous opposition to a Russia that still plays the liberation card is one of them.
    Incidentally,war against communism was much cheaper in blood and money than communist peace and liberation.

    You wanna know practical steps for reconciliation?
    First,nobody gives a crap about any promise you make or treaty you sign.ALL alliances with Russia were broken by Russia in one way or the other.Starting to old ones,vs the Ottomans.
    Step 1.Start acting in good faith.

    Step2.Stop mingling in the affairs of others in Europe.Really,Asia is big.

    Step3.Stop making threats.Really,telling independent nations of visits with TU-160 only has 2 consequences:more alliances with whoever wishes to oppose Russia(reasons be damned) and more weapon aquisitions.
    Then there are complaints of increased security risks.No sh!t...

    Step 4 How about fighting less in Europe?
    Step 5.How about helping solve the frozen conflicts,instead of encouraging them?

    All this are not surrender of Russia.But they require a vastly different state.So I am realistic enough to know there is no quick arrival to these goals.

    Another fact is it was always quicker for Russia to try to subjugate East Europe,thus increasing security and wealth.That may have been possible in the past.It is impossible now.
    So either reconciliation(and internal change in Russia) or new cold war and exhaustion of Russia.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  13. #223
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