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Thread: Ukraine Elections and Political Developments

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrey Egorov View Post
    That was our 1994 alone without apartment bombings. Next year Budennovsk hospital happened.
    I am not sure aluminium and other 'Oligarch wars' and Mafia wars of the early to mid 1990s are relevant to todays situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrey Egorov View Post
    As for Sevastopol it was captured along with entire Crimean peninsula in March 2014, right after it was threated. "As if they were ready."
    Who was threatening Sevastapol in 2014? Yanukovch? But he fled from Balaclava... The interim Government which refused the fight in Crimea? If Moscow had asked for the Sevastapol lease to be extended to 100yrs in 2014 the interim Government would have jumped at the offer.

    Quote Originally Posted by tantalus View Post
    Does anyone have a good analysis on the extent of their effects? Have the west maintained something that resembles adequacy?
    I think it is important to note that the effect of sanctions is cumulative. The effects in yr 10 will be far greater than in yr 1. One of the main effects we see on the ground is the rise in smuggling - alot of which goes via Belarus too. I think the sanctions are taking a toll - the lack of investment in Moscow alone is damaging to their economy. Perhaps as damaging if not more so is the comparatively low oil price which of course is why they have been trying to reach a deal on production quota with the Saudi's etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeeCoffee View Post
    (Regime change equating towards 'control of territory'.)
    I haven't heard one person call for 'regime change' in Muscovy - apart from their exiles. It is certainly not Ukrainian Government policy nor as far as I know any other 'western' Governments policy. Mostly all Governments simply wish them to abide the agreements and responsibilities they freely entered into; the UN Founding Charter, Helsinki Final Accord, Budapest Memorandum and Minsk 2 - along with a host of European accords. In other words to recognise Ukraine sovereign territorial integrity and stop violating their agreements to respect it. For the Ukrainian Government the internal workings of the Muscovite Government and society are a matter for them. Because Ukraine does not accept Moscow's attempts to invade and interfere in Ukraine it has to logically reject any suggestion of doing the same.

    Having said that many, including myself, hope and believe that as the Ukrainian reform agenda bears fruit - and though alot has been done alot more remains to be done - that this will set an example to the average 'man on the Moscow omnibus'. If/when the standard of living of the average Ukrainian rises clearly higher than the average Muscovite - when corruption is a thing of the past and Ukraine has new roads, hospitals, a modern army, modern universities... in short when Ukraine gets past the "post Soviet" stage of it's history and becomes more like Poland, Lithuania and Romania what will the average Muscovite think? Realistically, just like the Tsarist and Communist regimes had to end sometime so does the new dictatorship. It may end when Putin dies or before or later. Personally I do not think the Putin regime is as secure as it may seem. When the day comes - and it is inevitable that it will - that the Muscovites rise up for reform and liberty it would be insane if Ukraine - and others - did not support them. I would happily go myself.

  2. #182
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    Mafia wars incidents weren't even listed. But fine. Let 1994 alone. 1995 was impressive too. Budyonnovsk.

    Yanukovich's government was overthrown by Maidan and what happened next was unclear. Any government stubborn enough could denounce previous treaty and declare previous government criminals. Again.
    You are opposing explanation, not justification here.
    We're so bad, we're even bad at it

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrey Egorov View Post
    Mafia wars incidents weren't even listed. But fine. Let 1994 alone. 1995 was impressive too. Budyonnovsk.
    For obvious reasons I have studied the Leningrad/Petrograd details of that time mostly and the Tambovskaya gang wars - between themselves and with others - the attempted murder of Kumarin for example are registered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrey Egorov View Post
    Yanukovich's government was overthrown by Maidan and what happened next was unclear.
    From my perspective that is strictly speaking not entirely correct. Yanukovych left for a Party Conference in Kharkiv; he said so! There was an agreement on the table - which he had help negotiate and witnessed by the three Foreign Ministers (France, Germany and Poland) that would have allowed him to stay in Office until new elections in the autumn. He says he was shot at or whatever... well it is possible I suppose and after the murders his backers had committed I would not blame anyone who tried to shoot at him - but technically he was not "overthrown" but simply left. I remember the time well: I was not then based in Kyiv, though I had visited a few times to meet opposition groups and did not arrive until early morning on the 22nd Feb (about 03.30). It was total chaos - nobody knew what was going on so after letting a few friends know I was there I went to pray where the dead had been killed - the bloodstains were still there. When the rumour started up that Yanukovych had fled I started getting phone calls and ended up in the Ministry of the Interior most of the day trying to work out what the hell was going on and how we could grab Berkut criminals. You have to understand that while Yanukovych did not have to leave he was probably wise to do so; he had lost the confidence of 99% of the people and the civil servants, Kyiv was effectively surrounded and he could not call any of the military - or hired tituski from the provinces - in. By the time he ran prices in Kyiv had started rising as there was effectively a blockade going on. It was heady times but mostly chaos, as much as people (including me) tried to organise things and keep them civil people just automatically took whatever action they wanted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrey Egorov View Post
    Any government stubborn enough could denounce previous treaty and declare previous government criminals. Again.
    You are opposing explanation, not justification here.
    My friend I do not want to say too much but once Yanukovych had been removed for being "unable to fulfill his Presidential duties" Sevastapol was the least of our concerns; law and order came first, then when we discovered the country was broke that became a prime issue... Nobody in Kyiv with influence - or even just advising (as I was then) - even gave a thought to threatening the status of the Sevastapol lease. If we could have avoided a Muscovite war by granting a 100yr lease for free on Sevastapol we would have. But the fact is the Putin move on Crimea was not only a saving of his face - he understood he had lost most of Ukraine for now - but a trap; there were 100,000 troops massed on the borders. If we had fought Crimea they would have been in Kyiv within a week if not earlier. They still had Yanukovych in play who could at any moment appeal for "fraternal help to restore law and order" or whatever. There were quite a few who argued for fighting Crimea - I was against it myself but it was not my call. Only by luck was it was avoided but that is a long story. The point is that as 22nd Feb - the day the Muscovite Crimea operation started - dawned Yanukovych was still and could have remained President. He chose, and as we know know was advised to leave by Moscow, there was no Government until the Rada voted that afternoon to remove the President from Office. Even then there was no Government for about a week. We could not have threatened Sevastopol if we had wanted to but Putin had already decided to go ahead in Crimea hoping to get a response so he could invade in general - reinstate Yanukovych and rule by proxy.

  4. #184
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    Snapper, interesting narrative regarding "regime change".
    Real eyes realize real lies.

  5. #185

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    It is a bit astounding to consider Putin sees the Ukrainians and Maidan as a betrayal to Russia, his government and him. I mean, I suppose...he COULD truly believe all that czarist/Lenin/Stalin crap about little Russians, white Russians, etc. He would honestly have to believe Ukrainian citizens are obligated to value the interests of the Russian state above their own.

    Alternatively, of course, it might be suggested that the only "betrayal" occurring was that of Yanukovych turning his back on the expressed will of the Ukrainian people in December, 2013 and January 2014. Then compounding his betrayal by unleashing his Russian-trained and sponsored security forces upon those very legitimately asking "WTF?".

    Without question, the Crimean operation had been in the works for months. That event was exceedingly well-rehearsed and was no spur-of-the-moment operation. Then you've gotta love the whole idea of the harassed, brutalized Russian citizens saved by the heroic Re...errr Russian Army. Now...when we talk about repression of tribal peoples, lots of brutal images come to mind-tutsis/hutus, shia/sunni/alewite, hazaras, etc. You get the picture.

    Crimea? Donetsk? Luhansk? Scenes of outrageous brutality inflicted upon Russian blood Ukrainians by their cousins? Really? I confess to have missed that state of affairs which had evolved right under the noses of the entire western media.

    Putin didn't.
    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
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  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by S2 View Post
    I confess to have missed that state of affairs which had evolved right under the noses of the entire western media. Putin didn't.
    Yes S2, the Western media. It helps to shape and formulate the opinion and viewpoint along with pushing an agenda onto its Western viewers.
    Surely the Russian media attempts to do the same...and the Chinese...and The Vatican...et al.
    Real eyes realize real lies.

  7. #187

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    PeeCoffee,

    "...It helps to shape and formulate the opinion and viewpoint along with pushing an agenda onto its Western viewers..."

    You do know there's this thingy called the internet and that in most countries it's as easy as creating a blog to express your viewpoint. As such, there are MANY agendas pushed upon western viewers. Many in conflict with one another.

    So...from your viewpoint then, western media conspired to bury stories of Ukrainian atrocities and brutality to their Russian-blood citizens?
    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

  8. #188
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    We now have a new proposed "state": Welcome to 'Malorossiya' ...

    https://dninews.com/article/official...-text-07182017

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by S2 View Post
    western media conspired...
    I'm curious, what do you know about total number of civilian casualties during Mosul siege from western media?
    Winter is coming.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by S2 View Post
    PeeCoffee,

    "...It helps to shape and formulate the opinion and viewpoint along with pushing an agenda onto its Western viewers..."

    You do know there's this thingy called the internet and that in most countries it's as easy as creating a blog to express your viewpoint. As such, there are MANY agendas pushed upon western viewers. Many in conflict with one another.

    So...from your viewpoint then, western media conspired to bury stories of Ukrainian atrocities and brutality to their Russian-blood citizens?
    Where do the majority of 'average American' adults turn to for international news stories pertaining to Ukraine, Russia and Crimea ?
    A) nationally syndicated televised news channels in English
    B) international televised news channels in English
    C) nationally syndicated newspaper sources in English
    D) Facebook
    E) individual bloggers reporting live on the ground in various languages

    How many minutes per day does the 'average American' spend investigating and delve into news stories regarding Ukraine, Russia and Crimea ?
    A) more than 5 minutes
    B) less than 5 minutes
    C) "I can't find Crimea on a map."

    "...this thingy called the internet..." Get real.

    [Caveat: Thankfully WAB members for the most part are not average Americans that post on this particular thread. No offense against 'average Americans'. ]
    Real eyes realize real lies.

  11. #191

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    PeeCoffee,

    I'm confident that I asked you a question about the western media. It's just above in this thread. You didn't answer and, instead, appeared to obfuscate this discussion by interjecting the "average American".

    Fascinating but could you stay on track, please?
    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

  12. #192
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    Not American.

  13. #193
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    Hmmm...S2...are you in USA ?

    Available on Youtube or LiveLeak.com , if you wish you can check out viewing > GlobalResearchTV "Ukraine: Atrocities Commited By US-backed Ukranian..."

    Surely this is not shown on or by major American media outlets.

    Realistically and honestly I don't really believe the majority of Americans could care less what happened in Crimea.
    Come on - who is on the American bad boy poster now , Kim il Jong ?

    Russia has long been the whipping post boy since the end of WW2...Ruskies...atom bomb...the end of the world...Cold War...Cuban Missile Crisis...America arming the muhajadeen against Russian force fighting terrorism (and look who went into Afghanistan in 2001 and is still there "fighting terrorism".)

    Yup, America's media circus has never moved past its anti-Ruskie bias.
    Who propped up relentless /(ruthless) dictators across the globe and hid the deeds and truth for twenty-plus years from their own American people?
    The KGB didn't kill Vietnam's American puppet Diem in 1963...nor Saddam Hussein...nor set up brutally repressive Manuel Noriega in Panama.

    Your own Government steers the story and opinion for the American people.
    Same as Russia does for Russian people.

    How many citizens globally really have the time required to delve into and try to uncover the realtruth when they must put forth their time and effort providing bread on the table, putting a roof over the heads and trying to support their family ?

    So S2 to answer your question - yes, the media conceals stories...(the same as bodies) ...to keep the citizen spectators cheering for the home Government team.
    Even America is not as transparent as you might believe it is. You can believe what wish.
    (I no longer have the time to debate whether God exists or not. I'm busy playing chess. ;-))
    Peace my friend.
    Real eyes realize real lies.

  14. #194

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    "...America arming the muhajadeen against Russian force fighting terrorism..."

    Never read the SOVIET invasion of Afghanistan described quite that way. I can only imagine from where you've gained that perspective.
    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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