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Thread: Ukraine Elections and Political Developments

  1. #166

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    Sorry. Too much rationalization. Crimea (like the Luhansk/Donetsk regions) was clearly marked and recognized by the world as something other than Russian.

    The Russians re-drew the borders because they can. Because the west won't resist this behavior it is "real-politik" to acknowledge this reality but most definitely not acknowledging any associated legitimacy.

    The invasion and annexation of Crimea remains illegitimate and the sanctions reflect both that prevailing view by the rest of the world for that illegitimate act along with the penalty assessed.

    Accept and accommodate and it shall be eventually forgotten.

    Is this what you recommend?

    Swiss? Maybe you mean the Swedes?
    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
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  2. #167
    Regular PeeCoffee's Avatar
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    "Accept and accomodate"...hasn't that been the mantra of the world for centuries...until someone somewhere wishes to push back or take back what they feel they can ?

    "Prevailing view by the rest of the world"...what is that in reality ?
    Shouldn't the United States , Russia , Britain or China be dictated to by the 'majority' whim of the United Nations ? Nyet.
    That is why the real global power members of the Security Council can veto any resolution from further action.

    The lions kill the easy prey...they rarely require an elephant to supplement their diet.
    Crimea was an easy picking as NATO would not counter and risk a serious miliitary escalation in advance of the Russian advances towards breaching the boundary.
    Possibly one day Russia may again lose their hold in another Crimean War. Every dog has its day.
    Real eyes realize real lies.

  3. #168

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    "Accept and accomodate"...hasn't that been the mantra of the world for centuries...until someone somewhere wishes to push back or take back what they feel they can ?"

    Mantra for centuries? Sure, if that's what sanctions define. Accommodation? Don't think so.

    "Prevailing view by the rest of the world"...what is that in reality ?"

    Ummm...that sanctions establish that prevailing view? It would seem so.
    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

  4. #169
    Regular PeeCoffee's Avatar
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    Crimea was part of Russia for 170 years until Khrushchev transferred it in 1954.
    At the time Crimea was 75% ethnic-Russian and 25% ethnic-Ukrainian.
    That Crimean transfer 60 years prior to Putin's gambit was expected by Khrushchev to bring Ukraine closer to heel under Moscow's control. It didn't work out exactly as planned.

    Crimea is of strategic importance militarily and economically.
    Putin wants to make Russia stronger as NATO has armed the borders.
    What exactly are America's real interests in that sphere of the world...why shouldn't Russia be preemptively prepared ?
    Real eyes realize real lies.

  5. #170
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    Hah.The Immortals! Another bogatyr on the web.

    There is no point talking to the likes of you,but there was no American soldier around until Russia started its idiocy.Again.Btw,there was little to 0 investment in military equipment in EE before 2014.
    Which means that all this is Russia's doing.Actually,is just a small clique acting in its name.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  6. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeeCoffee View Post
    Crimea was part of Russia for 170 years until Khrushchev transferred it in 1954.
    It was Greek for over 1000 yrs, Tatar for 500. Was Kaliningrad always Muscovite?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeeCoffee View Post
    At the time Crimea was 75% ethnic-Russian and 25% ethnic-Ukrainian.
    To be honest this talk of 'ethnic Muscovites' as opposed to 'ethnic Ukrainians is nonesense; apart from the Asian groups (including the Crimean Tatars) the average 'European Muscovite' is no different genetically than the average Ukrainian or Pole. We are Slavs. If by 'ethnic' you mean the mother language a person speaks then I probably have no ethnicity but yet I remain a Slav.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeeCoffee View Post
    That Crimean transfer 60 years prior to Putin's gambit was expected by Khrushchev to bring Ukraine closer to heel under Moscow's control. It didn't work out exactly as planned.
    Khrushchev was just applying common sense; Crimea was dependent on Ukraine for power and water.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeeCoffee View Post
    Crimea is of strategic importance militarily and economically.
    Militarily - the naval base was theirs for another 26yrs by a deal agreed between Yulia Tymoshenko and Putin for nominal rent. The Ukrainian 'revolution' was not about threatening previously agreed treaties but about reform. Nobody threatened the Sevastopol Naval base and nobody intended to. Economically Crimea was subsidised yearly by Ukraine; it does not provide a net surplus to a country's income but is a net cost. When you consider the cost of the Kerch bridge - and it's military vulnerability if it stands up long enough - then Crimea is a large net expense for Moscow. Even tourism - Crimea's largest income - is down by 60% since most of the tourists were Ukrainians.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeeCoffee View Post
    Putin wants to make Russia stronger as NATO has armed the borders.
    NATO never had combined forces - and still does not have - combined forces permamently based east of Germany.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeeCoffee View Post
    What exactly are America's real interests in that sphere of the world...why shouldn't Russia be preemptively prepared ?
    Prepared for what? Nobody was going to attack Muscovy. It was them who murdered Chechens, invaded Georgia and Ukraine. All this "we are surrounded by NATO" stuff is BS. The only borders they share with NATO members are those of the Baltics and Poland due to Kaliningrad.

  7. #172
    Senior Contributor Andrey Egorov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Nobody threatened the Sevastopol Naval base and nobody intended to.
    Ukraine did, on several occasions in 2008 and 2009 when Rada tried to adopt a law to expel Russian Navy out of Sevastopol. Then in 2010 Yanukovych's government did prolong the treaty, but then Maidan happened, you dumped himself, declared him illegitimate and his regime criminal. By Putin's views all Maidan leaders are criminals and traitors, and the government they established too.
    So Putin doesn't like such ambiguity in leadership. He'd grown paranoid and eventually decided to capture Sevastopol and Crimea in one package.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    them who murdered Chechens
    Worked both ways, you know. The terror of 90s and 00s was very real in Moscow, Mineralnye Vody, Voronezh, Volgograd and throughout entire Russia, Chechnya included. Putin got it mostly contained in Caucasus region, at least in media.
    We're so bad, we're even bad at it

  8. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrey Egorov View Post
    So Putin doesn't like such ambiguity in leadership. He'd grown paranoid and eventually decided to capture Sevastopol and Crimea in one package.
    Andrey,
    I may have asked you this before, but...

    What are the chances that Putin will, if the Donbass operation is as successful as the Crimean annexation, make his next move to reacquire the Nikolayev South Shipyard, NW of Crimea?

    Or would he stop at just the Donets Basin?
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    Hah.The Immortals! Another bogatyr on the web.

    There is no point talking to the likes of you,but there was no American soldier around until Russia started its idiocy.Again.Btw,there was little to 0 investment in military equipment in EE before 2014.
    Which means that all this is Russia's doing.Actually,is just a small clique acting in its name.
    Who requires a multitude of soldiers on one's borders when long-range missiles and the potential deployment of nuclear armaments is so easily available ?
    Do you believe the current leadership is any less paranoid then when Stalin was in power ? Nyet.

    Why shouldn't Russia fear /worry/ analyze America's global motivations and military prowess ?
    What is America's military expenditures annually compared to Russia's ?
    Real eyes realize real lies.

  10. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrey Egorov View Post
    By Putin's views all Maidan leaders are criminals and traitors, and the government they established too.
    How can Ukrainians be traitors to Moscow?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrey Egorov View Post
    Worked both ways, you know. The terror of 90s and 00s was very real in Moscow, Mineralnye Vody, Voronezh, Volgograd and throughout entire Russia, Chechnya included. Putin got it mostly contained in Caucasus region, at least in media.
    The Appartment bombings? I would happily send you a copy of Litvinenko's 'Blowing up Russia' but wouldn't want you to get into trouble as it is banned in Muscovy... first since Gulag Archipelago. I wonder why... Only Trepashkin lives and isn't talking for obvious reasons. Certainly though I agree the Chechens are no angels but since two of them have been convicted recently for the Nemtsov murder why should this be a cause for a third Chechen war? I think we both know the answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrey Egorov View Post
    Ukraine did, on several occasions in 2008 and 2009 when Rada tried to adopt a law to expel Russian Navy out of Sevastopol.
    The Sevastapol base was not threatened in the least in February 2014. Putin's ego was threatened is all and to 'prove' himself he illegally annexed Crimea and lost Ukraine.
    Last edited by snapper; 16 Jul 17, at 05:02.

  11. #176
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    For the record as some believe wrongly that I'm a Russian-Putin prop/ propagandist.
    You can still believe what you wish...freedom of expression and thought...personal experiences...prejudices...and POV.

    Russia is xenophobic...homophobic...dysfunctional...and corrupt.
    In some liklihood Putin is attempting to bring Russia to the glorified heydays of its neo-nationalist Empire Soviet in what might be called 'velikaya derzhava'.
    Is he utilizing Lenin's "let the ends justify the means" strategem ?

    Some may feel that in the same liklihood Ukraine is a bit in kind to being a 'little sister' of Russia.
    Since the Orange Revolution of 2004 when Ukraine began managing its own team it's of my opinion that
    Ukraine is a country that is possibly more corrupt...more dysfunctional...just as homophobic...and possibly somewhat less xenophobic.

    (Surely 'big sister' would still be proud.)
    Last edited by PeeCoffee; 16 Jul 17, at 06:11.
    Real eyes realize real lies.

  12. #177
    Senior Contributor Andrey Egorov's Avatar
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    TopHatter, I think Putin doesn't need the shipyard nor Donetsk basin itself, he needs cover up operation, thus DNR and LNR exist. It's not the matter of assets, but creating the situation itself. Turmoil for turmoil's sake, weakening closest neighbor who become an enemy practically overnight.
    Shipbuilding capabilities of Severodvinsk are barely filled, contract payments delayed. Another shipyard won't give any money to finish even existing subs, not to mention surface ships. Though only subs are valued, nuclear powered strategic missile submarines. We have one 885 in trials, six 885Ms in building and no money to finish them nor keep fleet of remaining 667s afloat.

    snapper, they are Ukrainian traitors, but traitors nevertheless. Their every word is a word of a traitor.

    No, not apartment bombings.
    • Moskva-Baku train explosion, near Dagestanskiye Ogni station
    • Police station in Makhachkala
    • Vladikavkaz-Stavropol bus hostage crisis
    • Stavropol-Mozdok bus hostage crisis
    • Khabarovsk-Moskva train derailment after explosion on track near Chita
    • Pyatigorsk-Krasnogvardeyskoye bus hostage crisis in Mineralnye Vody
    • Sovremennik club explosion in Moscow, city service and immigration post in the same building
    • School explosion in Komsomolsk-na-Amure
    • Explosion on train bridge over Yauza in Moscow
    • Explosion on freight train in Moscow
    • Explosion in bus 33 in Moscow

    That was our 1994 alone without apartment bombings. Next year Budennovsk hospital happened.

    As for Sevastopol it was captured along with entire Crimean peninsula in March 2014, right after it was threated. "As if they were ready."
    We're so bad, we're even bad at it

  13. #178

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    Pee Coffee,

    "Who requires a multitude of soldiers on one's borders when long-range missiles and the potential deployment of nuclear armaments is so easily available ?..."

    Western Europe between 1945-1990. The notion of massive retaliation via nuclear strike was rendered non-viable by 1949...and proven thus with Korea. Conflict as exercised recently by the Russian government is specifically designed to operate well below the nuclear threshold.

    The need for troops is real, recent and generated by current Russian operations, driven by paranoia or otherwise.

    I see here historical rationalizations- Ukraine "little sister"; Crimean Russia; eastern Europe Slavic leadership/sphere of influence/buffer zone, etc. These are carted out, some by those believing, others rationalizing behind veils of NATO irredentism or Russian leadership paranoia.

    All the same though. The results of Russian operations, successful or otherwise, are illegitimate by the standards of today and, thus, unacceptable. We won't spend our blood to reverse their successes although we understand should the Ukrainians wish to do so. I pray we maintain sanctions without redress short of Russian withdrawal from Crimea of their forces and administration and the end to active support for the Donetsk/Luhansk rebels.

    Anything less acknowledges and legitimizes Russian behavior which immediately puts NATO's eastern borders at severe risk. That just might compel a state of paranoia on both sides of the border.
    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

  14. #179
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    It's critical that sanctions are maintained on Russia over crimea. They invaded and stole sovereign territory, it's really that simple. Every country in the world could be grabbing land tomorrow from neighbours by this measure. If might is right, the might of europe and the usa must be brought upon the Russians via economic sanctions, and it seems likely these will be needed for years or decades. Does anyone have a good analysis on the extent of their effects? Have the west maintained something that resembles adequacy?

  15. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by tantalus View Post
    Have the west maintained something that resembles adequacy?
    First thing that came to mind > Afghanistan...Iraq...Libya...Syria...(am I joking?)

    (Regime change equating towards 'control of territory'.)
    Real eyes realize real lies.

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