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Thread: Ukraine Elections and Political Developments

  1. #136

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    "You are right that I am no longer a good fit for Crimea and Russia..."

    I apologize for not being more clear. "Negotiation" was a poor option for Crimea which, by the perspective of virtually the entire world, was sovereign Ukrainian territory.

    Russia simply chose to take it.

    Not very civilized.

    "...They [DPR/LPR] probably would lose, yes. But it would be a pyrrhic victory..."

    A pyrrhic victory to reclaim a nation's sovereign lands from rebels? Seems the entire point of Ukrainian military operations since 2014 has been the defeat of the DPR/LPR separatist rebels.

    If Moscow turns off the money/weapons/little green men spigot then that entire stage-managed enterprise comes crashing to a halt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_One View Post
    Whatever. I know where I stand. Crimea is with Russia, whether the damn Ukrops like it or not. Ukraine can go to EU and NATO and do what they want, nobody is holding them. Any regular Russian forces in Donbass should be withdrawn. Without a real long term plan from the Kremlin, there is no point in them being there anyway. The separatists have sucked enough money and weapons and other resources from Russia already. Let them fight their own battles by themselves now.

    That's it. Divorce complete, property divided.
    If the latest Checkist tinpot Dictator agreed with you I would be delighted! Nor do we necessarily want 'divorce' but friendly and normal relations like for example the US and Canada normally enjoy to the benefit of both.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_One View Post
    You are right that I am no longer a good fit for Crimea and Russia.
    The 'exile' syndrome! I know it well sadly... I am a 'stranger' in the West because my heart is Slavic - but still a 'stranger' in my homelands for I think as 'westerner'. It is hard for us who know 'two worlds' but better for our peoples and homelands that we think with our heads rather than our hearts as is normal in Slavic lands. I shall endeavor that my children (if God grants me them!) enjoy both worlds as well. Apollo must win over Bacchus; reason over sentiment.

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by S2 View Post
    I apologize for not being more clear. "Negotiation" was a poor option for Crimea which, by the perspective of virtually the entire world, was sovereign Ukrainian territory.

    Russia simply chose to take it.

    Not very civilized.
    "Not very civilized."
    Didn't the Parliament of the Autotomous Republic of Crimea vote to sucede from Ukraine in 2014 and join the Russian Federation ?

    (Any wonder why the map of Eastern Europe changed after WW1.)

    Didn't the late US Pres R.M. Nixon travel to Crimea to initiate economic cooperation with the Soviet Union before his resignation ?
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  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    The 'exile' syndrome! I know it well sadly... I am a 'stranger' in the West because my heart is Slavic - but still a 'stranger' in my homelands for I think as 'westerner'. It is hard for us who know 'two worlds' but better for our peoples and homelands that we think with our heads rather than our hearts as is normal in Slavic lands. I shall endeavor that my children (if God grants me them!) enjoy both worlds as well. Apollo must win over Bacchus; reason over sentiment.
    Well articulated re "two worlds" emigres IMO.
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  5. #140

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    "...Didn't the Parliament of the Autotomous Republic of Crimea vote to sucede from Ukraine in 2014 and join the Russian Federation ?"

    Wouldn't secession be a matter for the NATION to consider?

    Do you find the invasion of one nation by another a civilized first step in that process of secession?

    "Didn't the late US Pres R.M. Nixon travel to Crimea to initiate economic cooperation with the Soviet Union before his resignation ?"

    Please explain the precedent this apparently established in your mind. It eludes me as the present U.S. government recognizes the Crimea as a part of the Ukrainian state. So does virtually all the rest of the world.
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  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    If the latest Checkist tinpot Dictator agreed with you I would be delighted! Nor do we necessarily want 'divorce' but friendly and normal relations like for example the US and Canada normally enjoy to the benefit of both.



    The 'exile' syndrome! I know it well sadly... I am a 'stranger' in the West because my heart is Slavic - but still a 'stranger' in my homelands for I think as 'westerner'. It is hard for us who know 'two worlds' but better for our peoples and homelands that we think with our heads rather than our hearts as is normal in Slavic lands. I shall endeavor that my children (if God grants me them!) enjoy both worlds as well. Apollo must win over Bacchus; reason over sentiment.
    Russia and Ukraine will NEVER have the relationship of the US and Canada. Ever. Sorry. The Slavics in general are just too hateful, spiteful, grudge-holding a sort of people, on both sides of that border. Look at the Russian Polish relationship. Polyaks going on about Katyn, and Molotov Ribbentrop Pact, and even going back to the Tsarist Era for crap against Russians; while Russians have a monument to Minin and Pozharsky on the Red Square itself and now a national holiday is dedicated to those two kicking out the Polish-Lithuanian invaders back then, in 1612... 17th century, think about that, and they still remember it!

    No, there will never be good will between Russians and Ukrainians, mark my words.

    Quote Originally Posted by S2 View Post
    "...Didn't the Parliament of the Autotomous Republic of Crimea vote to sucede from Ukraine in 2014 and join the Russian Federation ?"

    Wouldn't secession be a matter for the NATION to consider?

    Do you find the invasion of one nation by another a civilized first step in that process of secession?

    "Didn't the late US Pres R.M. Nixon travel to Crimea to initiate economic cooperation with the Soviet Union before his resignation ?"

    Please explain the precedent this apparently established in your mind. It eludes me as the present U.S. government recognizes the Crimea as a part of the Ukrainian state. So does virtually all the rest of the world.
    I don't know much about Nixon.

    I do know about the history of attempted secessions in the former Soviet Union since the 90s. Transnistria from Moldova. Karabakh from Azerbaijan. Abkhazia and South Ossetia from Georgia. Chechnya from Russia. All ended with blood bathes. Because all the governments there feel that the appropriate response to a secession movement, is military force. Same now, for Donbass. And same would have been for Crimea, if the Russians didn't just move in there full force and deter the Ukrainians from it... As far as I am concerned, while a violation of international law, the intervention did save many lives in Crimea, while itself taking essentially none, and is a positive at least that way.

  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by S2 View Post
    "...Didn't the Parliament of the Autotomous Republic of Crimea vote to sucede from Ukraine in 2014 and join the Russian Federation ?"

    Wouldn't secession be a matter for the NATION to consider?

    Do you find the invasion of one nation by another a civilized first step in that process of secession?

    "Didn't the late US Pres R.M. Nixon travel to Crimea to initiate economic cooperation with the Soviet Union before his resignation ?"

    Please explain the precedent this apparently established in your mind. It eludes me as the present U.S. government recognizes the Crimea as a part of the Ukrainian state. So does virtually all the rest of the world.
    Portland, Oregon...part of the the 50 States. A beautiful part as well.

    The population of the American colonies was approx 2,500,000 at the signing of the Declaration of Independence 241 years ago suceding from British 'tyranny' yet only 56 or so members of a "Continental Congress" ever signed it precipitating an eight year war.
    There was no public referendum or citizenry vote.

    Re Nixon...he met Leonid Breshnev in Moscow and Simferopol, Crimea to open trade accords with the Soviet Union.

    Pres FDR's 1945 conference in Yalta on the Crimean Peninsula with Generalissimo Stalin and PM Churchill recognized Stalin as the leader of the USSR.
    Stalin the strategist convinced FDR and WC to recognize his plan of setting up two republics (Ukraine and White Russia) thus providing two votes in the Security Council of the eight future "Associated Nations" (UN).

    ◇The US Govt and "virtually the rest of the world" considered Tibet an independent nation wrongly 'invaded' as well. And Republic of China did what ...(yawn).
    Real eyes realize real lies.

  8. #143
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    Well, anyway, the Bridge is coming along great

    The highway section is 70% complete, apparently. The railway section is one third done.

    Lot of people in Crimea, including my uncle, who has his own small hotel (more of a hostel, really), pin great hopes on that thing, that many more Russians will come vacation in Crimea on summers, when they will be able to just drive there

    Crimea depends on tourism. The whole economy there is built around that. But, right now, there aren't enough modern hotels, prices are often a bit too high, and customer service leaves much to desire also...

    Hopefully things improve in future.

  9. #144
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    A general view shows a power plant under construction in Sevastopol, Crimea, July 5, 2017. REUTERS/Anton Zverev

    Russia has delivered electricity turbines made by Germany's Siemens to Crimea, a region subject to European Union sanctions barring EU firms from supplying it with energy technology, three sources with knowledge of the delivery told Reuters.

    Reuters was unable to determine if Siemens knew of or condoned the equipment transfer, but the move exposes the German company to potential accusations of indirect sanctions-busting and of not taking sufficient safeguards to ensure its equipment does not end up on territory most countries view as illegally annexed, say legal experts.

    "Siemens has not delivered turbines to Crimea and complies with all export control restrictions," said Wolfram Trost, a spokesman for Siemens in Munich, when asked to confirm the turbine transfer to Crimea.

    Citing client confidentiality, he did not answer written questions asking whether Siemens was aware that the turbines had been shipped to Crimea and whether it would now be activating or servicing them.

    Russia needs the turbines for two Crimean power plants the Kremlin wants to get up and running to fulfill a promise, made by President Vladimir Putin, to ensure a stable power supply for the region's residents after it was annexed by Moscow from Ukraine in 2014.

    Delivery of the turbines, intended for the two new power stations under construction, had been delayed for over a year because the firms involved feared violating EU sanctions, people involved in the project have told Reuters.

    Russia's Energy Ministry, which oversees the Crimea power plants project, declined to comment. It referred questions to Technopromexport, the Russian state-owned firm which is building the plants. Technopromexport declined to comment.

    One source close to the project, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the topic, told Reuters that two of the turbines had been delivered from Russia by sea to Crimea.

    He said they were destined for use in a power plant in the Crimean city of Sevastopol. He said the turbines were unloaded at Sevastopol port, and that preparatory work was underway at the power plant site to install and commission the turbines.

    The turbines were SGT5-2000E gas turbines, he said, a type manufactured only by Siemens and its subsidiaries.

    RUSSIA OR CRIMEA?

    An official in Crimea's energy sector who is familiar with the power plants project, and an employee with a company involved in the project, also said the turbines were Siemens turbines, and that they had been delivered to Crimea.

    EU sanctions bar European individuals and companies from providing energy technology to Crimea or from taking any actions designed to circumvent those rules due to the bloc's view that the peninsula was illegally stolen from Ukraine.

    Legal experts say there are no court precedents to say whether Siemens could be held responsible if a third party brought the turbines to Crimea.

    When asked about the matter, the European Commission has declined to comment on the Siemens case in the past, saying it is up to EU member states to enforce sanctions rules on their companies.

    When asked about the issue on Wednesday, a spokesman for German's Ministry for Economic Affairs said he had no immediate comment.

    The individual close to the project and the official in the Crimea energy sector told Reuters the turbines delivered to the port in Sevastopol had come from Taman, located in southern Russia, some 10 miles (16 km) from Crimea.

    Siemens told reporters in March that a Russian joint venture in which it has a majority stake supplied turbines for use in a power plant that was planned for construction in Taman.

    The joint venture, Gas Turbine Technologies LLC, made the turbines that were sent to Taman at its factory in the Russian city of St Petersburg.

    Siemens has a 65 percent share in the joint venture, and Russian company Power Machines has a 35 percent stake.

    The sanctions barring the supply of energy technology to Crimea do not apply to the Taman project because it is located on internationally recognized Russian territory.

    The turbines for the Taman plant were bought by Technopromexport - the same company building the two Crimea plants - because, it previously said, it would be building the plant in Taman.

    Sources close to the Crimean project have previously told Reuters that one of the options under consideration was to use the Taman turbines in Crimea.

    Asked about that possibility last year, Siemens said it was supplying the turbines only for use in Taman, and not in Crimea.

    It said at the time it had "no reason" to believe the turbines would be diverted to Crimea, and said it respected and would abide by the sanctions regime.

    (Additional reporting by Andrew Osborn in Moscow, by Gernot Heller and Michelle Martin in Berlin and by Alissa de Carbonnel in Brussels; Writing by Christian Lowe; Editing by Mike Collett-White)
    Exclusive: Siemens turbines delivered to Crimea despite sanctions - sources

    haha This is why Crimea voted for Putin :D He says shit will happen, and it happens just as he says, he MAKES it happen... Sanctions-schmanctions, whatever. I have to give him that...

    FYI, there is also the port city of Novorossiysk, in Southern Russia, also not far from Crimea, and which has reportedly now become a huge hub for bringing all kinds of sanctioned and banned stuff in and out of Crimea, that city is reaping big profits off this: Crimea: Circumventing Trade Sanctions via Novorossiysk | EurasiaNet.org

  10. #145
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    Russian frigate "Admiral Essen" arrives home to Sevastopol today, after participating in Kalibr cruise missile strikes against ISIS (or whoever else) in Syria earlier

    The "Essen" and "Admiral Grigorovich" (original) are the first two warships of their class, newly built and stationed in Crimea. At least four more ships of same class are planned to eventually join them.

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeeCoffee View Post
    Didn't the Parliament of the Autotomous Republic of Crimea vote to sucede from Ukraine in 2014 and join the Russian Federation ?
    Well to be legal - as for example the Scottish independence referendum - such a referendum must be legalised by the national 'Parliament'; in Ukraine this is the Verkhovna Rada in Kyiv. In the case of the Scottish vote such a law was passed in the British Parliament authorising the vote. In the Crimean 'vote' there was no such authorising law passed in the Rada. It is therefore firstly illegal.

    Secondly we all know how 'democracy' works in Muscovy - payed people are bused from voting station to voting station to cast many votes or more simply the ballot boxes are stuffed - and that before you get to who counts the votes. In the elections previous to the so called 'referendum' - for all 'The_One' says about the Crimeans desire to return to Muscovy - the pro Russian Party received 3% of the vote (by the way the leader of the Party - now Prime Minister of Crimea is a Moldovan criminal formerly known as "Goblin" in the underworld). There was clearly little desire to return to Checkist rule before Moscow invaded. One of the 'little green men' in Crimea was Igor Girkin ("Strelok" or "Strelkov" as he later became known when he became 'Minister of Defence of the Peoples Republik of Donetsk') and he admitted they had to round up the former Crimea Deputies (MPs) and force them to vote for the 'referendum' (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcCqrzctxH4). Seeing as Girkin was one of these 'little green men' whom Putin admitted were Muscovite troops it kind of makes a mockery of his later claim to have "resigned" from the GRU.
    Then of course there were armed men in the voting stations - little green Muscovite soldiers - presumably to encourage a free and fair vote but when people had already been abducted and later found dead in Crimea would you take the risk?
    Then there was the question; remaining a part of Ukraine was not an option only independence or join Muscovy. Finally there were some strange results - Sevastapol vote 126% in favour of union Muscovy, Simferopol 119%... The whole thing was a fiasco really.
    Later they compounded it - they had medals made for the "Return of Crimea" but these medals (one could ask to whom they should be awarded if it were a free and fair referendum) bear the date of "February 20 - March 18 2014" but yet a Muscovite representative (Vladimir Lukin) was then in Kyiv negotiating with the Foreign Ministers of Poland, Germany and France, Yanukovych and the Opposition Parties the 'agreement' that was signed the next day that would have kept Yanukovych in power - at least until new elections in the Autumn. So basically they started the Crimean military operation the day before these negotiations that they posed as being party was agreed. In other words they never intended to abide by agreement. That same morning - the 20th - Surkov and two FSB Generals arrived in Kyiv (Colonel-General Sergei Orestovoch Beseda was one - I forget the others name offhand). On a seperate plane arrived a group of Spetznaz - allegedly to increase the protection of their Embassy. That is the day the 'Heavenly Hundred' were shot on Maidan and Beseda was in the SBU Office in Kyiv when it was going on. The evening of the 21st Yanukovych upped and ran - allegedly to a 'Pary Conference' in Kharkiv but he had packed all his stuff before hand (there are videos of stuff being loaded and taken away in trucks) and tried to destroy evidence of his corruption (some of which was recovered from the lake).

    You are free to make your own mind up but others that I know understand the Muscovite modus operandi. Too many 'coincidences' going on here. Of course at the same time as they started their Crimean military operation they mobilised virtually all their Western forces and massed them on the Ukrainian border. In my view it was a trap; they wanted us to respond to their illegal actions in Crimea, they still had Yanukovych in play remember - and had we done so Yanukovych would have publicly called for 'fraternal help' in 'restoring law and order' or whatever and they would have piled in. Sure we would have fought; one must even when tricked but it would have been a partisan war mostly to make it too costly for them to stay. Not fighting Crimea and avoiding the trap saved the rest of Ukraine much bloodshed and who knows maybe another Holodomor the following winter? It was scary times for a while and really more luck than anything that we got away with it. The Ukrainians - well the man on the street - never wanted a war with Muscovy and the 'revolution' was not about that in any way but about reform and the need to root out corruption. Yatsenyuk realised the Muscovite threat from the start - the other politicians less realistically. Still Putin continues to claim Ukrainian history - "Anna of Russia" (although she was Anna of Kyiv and never heard to went to Moscow) - and so insuates that the ancient (far older than Muscovy) state founded on Kyiv and now called Ukraine has any history of it's own - it belongs to him as the ruler of Muscovy. So much for the Crimean 'referendum' anyway.

  12. #147
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    Girkin was at the time a Colonel in the GRU. Seeing as Putin admitted that 'little green men' in Crimea were serving Muscovite troops and Girkin admits to being a 'little green man' in Crimea I am not sure that he has an interest in historic re-enactment is relevant; he was a serving GRU Officer or must have "resigned" after leaving Crimea and before arriving in Donbass. I have an interest in collecting old books but so what? I will fight if needed.

  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Girkin was at the time a Colonel in the GRU. Seeing as Putin admitted that 'little green men' in Crimea were serving Muscovite troops and Girkin admits to being a 'little green man' in Crimea I am not sure that he has an interest in historic re-enactment is relevant; he was a serving GRU Officer or must have "resigned" after leaving Crimea and before arriving in Donbass. I have an interest in collecting old books but so what? I will fight if needed.
    Probably they kicked him out after the Slavyansk fiasco lol Why would they want him after that, disgracing their uniform...

    Anyway, more on those turbines, wherever the hell they came from:

    (Reuters) - Technopromexport, a Russian state-owned firm which is building power plants in Crimea, said on Thursday it had bought four electricity turbines for the project on the secondary market.

    Reuters reported on Wednesday, citing sources, that Russia had delivered turbines made by Germany's Siemens to Crimea, a region subject to European Union sanctions barring EU firms from supplying it with energy technology.

    Technopromexport did not say on Thursday who the turbines it had bought on the secondary market were made by or who it bought them from. It said the turbines had been modernized by specialized Russian factories and engineering companies.

    Technopromexport added it had earlier failed to reach an agreement to buy turbines made by Iranian company MAPNA.

    Building the power plants in Crimea is a prestige project for Russia, since President Vladimir Putin promised to ensure a stable power supply for the region's residents after it was annexed by Moscow from Ukraine in 2014.

    A spokesman for Siemens in Munich earlier told Reuters that Siemens had not delivered turbines to Crimea.

    The spokesman did not answer written questions asking whether Siemens was aware that Siemens turbines had been shipped to Crimea and whether it would now be activating or servicing them.

    (Reporting by Gleb Stolyarov and Anastasia Lyrchikova; Writing by Alexander Winning)
    Russian firm says bought turbines for Crimea on secondary market | Reuters

  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_One View Post
    Probably they kicked him out after the Slavyansk fiasco lol Why would they want him after that, disgracing their uniform...
    Well yes Girkin was effectively sacked soon after Slovyansk and went back to Moscow where he bought himself a new flat, a brand new BMW and a young Wife. Strange huh? Did he rob a bank while "on vacation" or "getting lost/taking the wrong turn" in Ukraine or get a bonus/pay off? I do not know myself but he is a wealthy chap now.

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    As far as I recall my friend you have been asked twice by moderaters to refrain from posting so many pictures. They have a point in my view - I could post just as many pictures of armed men in election stations during the so called "referendum". Nor does an unverified and uncorroborated picture mean anything; they could be anywhere. You understand my meaning I hope.

    As regards your previous remarks that Ukraine and Muscovy will never be friends again well forever is a long time and it is not up us to decide the future except in the short time we have. I hope in the short term you are right as a Pole; it would be the greatest win for Poland since Khmelnytsky's Cossack rebellion and shift Ukraine and it's people firmly into the Polish - Lithuanian (and increasingly Romanian) camp. An intermarium - Międzymorze in Polish - would long term be inevitable and in time their prosperity would prompt the Muscovite people to rebel again and God willing cleanse the Checkist system. This is not about only Ukraine and whatever 'troung' says I have more pity than anything for Muscovite people rather than hate. It is only their corrupt Checkist mafiosi Government which has invaded the country in which my family home now lies and their breach of all international law and willful murder of those who disagree with them - apart from the much needed reform of Ukraine - that motivates me to help destroy the current Muscovite tyranny. Otherwise I would be happily married and teaching at Uni now. We did not start this fire; it is upto Moscow how long it continues but we shall not give up or go easy. It is very clear to most that Muscoy's neighbours cannot live in peace while the Checkist hold power but it is for them to cleanse themselves of their own and our curse.
    Last edited by snapper; 07 Jul 17, at 02:51.

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