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  • #31
    Originally posted by desertswo View Post
    You know, as a survivor of 12 years of Catholic education, and having taught high school history for six years, I long ago came to the conclusion that there ain't know ADD that an Irish nun and her ruler can't cure. Just sayin'.
    I agree. 12 years of Catholic education with Canadian fathers here sir. No brittle easily breakable rulers, but high tensile canes of different gauges (connosieurs of the fine art they were ....)
    Last edited by sated buddha; 21 Apr 14,, 12:17.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by desertswo View Post
      You know, as a survivor of 12 years of Catholic education, and having taught high school history for six years, I long ago came to the conclusion that there ain't know ADD that an Irish nun and her ruler can't cure. Just sayin'.
      Captain,

      I share your feelings...and can add a Christian Brother's boot and a Jesuit's open hand head slap!
      “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
      Mark Twain

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      • #33
        My four years of all boys high school were with the Augustinian Fathers, who are just a few ticks below the Jesuits in intellectual prowess, and roughly the same number of ticks below the Christian Brothers in terms of all out brutality. In other words, in terms of old school discipline and a good education, they were kind of like Goldie Locks and the Three Bears; they were "just right." On more than one occasion I saw a guy catch a closed fist right between the running lights, but you know what? The dipshits asked for it. I would gladly repeat those four years again. The prior eight with the Benedictine Sisters, not so much.

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        • #34
          Agree sir.

          My 1-8 Grade was a blend of Grey Nuns of the Sacred Heart, Sisters of Immaculata and Sisters of Saint Joseph. All degrees of suck.

          9-12 was a Christian Brothers' College Prep High School with a leavening of Jesuits and 2 Oblates. It was rigorous...both academically and physically.

          I had the added "bonus" of living on Catholic College campuses growing up...my Dad was president of 3 different colleges as a kid....no wonder I went to large state university for college!
          “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
          Mark Twain

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          • #35
            All public schooling, but I did have an Italian teacher who could turn any ordinary object into a dangerous projectile. Books, staplers and cold cream jars I dodged in her class. And God forbid you slouched or stuck your feet out from under your desk- she could deliver a surprisingly rapid kick or stomp for a 5 foot tall, old Italian lady.
            Structure and discipline are good for kids and there just isn't much of it any more in the public sphere.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
              The Army of today is flat ass broken. We have forgotten how to do basic staff coordination. While I may be a DA civilian I still serve in the capacity of a staff officer. I manage a staff of 38 personnel (26 government 12/13 and 12 contractors) as part of an overall organization of approximately 125 personnel core to the organization. This excludes the lead contractor for our product and matrix support areas for support.

              These 125 folks are divided into 4 divisions…one of which is the one I am an in. My branch is half of my division, which is half of the entire organization. We plan, coordinate, resource and manage fielding of our system to Army units both tactical and fixed base to the Active Army, Army Reserve and National Guard. Almost my entire workforce is retired senior logistics noncommissioned officers and warrant officers with a smattering of one or two commissioned officers. So you would think we would have our act together.
              So you are like Super Pogue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

              I bet there isn't a store within 10 miles that can keep Pogue Bait in stock during the week.

              Do you have this framed behind your desk?

              The Office Pogue Creed

              This is my keyboard. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
              My keyboard is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.
              My keyboard, without me, is useless. Without my keyboard, I am useless. I must type true.
              I must write better than my enemy who is trying to outwrite me. I must outwrite him before he outwrites me.

              My keyboard and I know that what counts in writing is not the number of sheets we type, the noise we make, nor the print cartridges we wear out. We know that it is the words that count.
              My Keyboard is human, even as I, because it is my life. Thus, I will learn it as a brother. I will learn its weaknesses, its strength, its parts, its accessories, and its keys.

              I will ever guard it against the ravages of weather and damage as I will ever guard my legs, my arms, my eyes and my heart against damage. I will keep my Keyboard clean and ready. We will become part of each other.

              Before God, I swear this creed.



              ( I held off as long as I could. I was even nice to the new battleship ID 10 Tango. But in the end I just couldn't pass this up)

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              • #37
                I really do not like the GS right now

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                • #38
                  Now that I got that out of my system.

                  Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post

                  So here is my question….am I just a Cold War dinosaur, stuck in how we did staff operations in the 1980s, when we had huge formations, where junior officers and NCOs manned TOCs and managed battle formations from battalion task force through division, and everyone knew what was going on because we worked a plan and rehearsed it and made it work and I can’t adjust to this Net Centric, everyone is connected but no one does anything, “I sent an email” is the response to “Did you talk to him/them?” and we just make it up as we go along and I don’t need to coordinate anymore type of operations?

                  Or have we raised a generation of staff personnel who cannot follow the staff planning process to save their life, have no clue about doctrine and if it’s on a PowerPoint its true and gospel?

                  Because if that’s what we have become bring back the Cold War, leisure suit BDUs, end-to-end rotations at Graf & Hohenfels and USAREUR being the 7th US Army and not just a HQ with 2 brigades.

                  Maybe Putin will do us a favor….
                  Welcome to the face of the new military.

                  I don't know when you retired but I'll give you a SpotRep of what I saw from 80-02. I'll save you the multipage rant

                  Flash Back to 1985. Young Cpl Grape is the Regt SACO and S-2 pogue (Its hell failing a hearing test) Regt XO calls me in wants a brief on security clearance adjudications. I fail miserably.

                  Went something like GG "Sir, I called DIA." LtCol interrupts "Who did you talk to?" GG: Didn't get a name Sir. Jim something"
                  It went down hill from there. And quick

                  That day, a young Corporal learned about phone logs, and making calls to coordinate the things we needed to discuss. And then making working calls and follow up calls until i had a finished product in hand. IOW Ownership was MINE until Rounds Complete. And other things like Cdrs Intent, ect.

                  Flash forward to the early 90s. We got E-Mail. Or at least Primary Staff Officers got E-mail. It was suppose to be used to sent traffic that wasn't important, like "Officer Wives Potluck Dinner" so that the phones could be used for important things.

                  By the Mid 90s E-mail was used to sent coordinating messages. "Hey I'm gonna call tomorrow at 1400. These are the things we need to discuss"
                  And the norm was E-mail then follow up with a phone call.

                  By the late 90s, in the weekly Bn Cdrs meetings I heard "Sir, I sent them an E-mail. Waiting for a reply". As a standard, and accepted answer.

                  We went from "I'm responsible" to Who can I pass the blame for the job not getting done" and E-mail was the perfect answer. No longer have to do the leg work. I can just e-mail someone and Its no longer my responsibility. Sir, Its not my fault that I have not got a E-mail response". And Commanders let that slide. Now it looks to be SOP.

                  Its the way to get promoted. If they cannot pin it on you, they can't hurt your career.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                    Now that I got that out of my system.



                    Welcome to the face of the new military.

                    I don't know when you retired but I'll give you a SpotRep of what I saw from 80-02. I'll save you the multipage rant

                    Flash Back to 1985. Young Cpl Grape is the Regt SACO and S-2 pogue (Its hell failing a hearing test) Regt XO calls me in wants a brief on security clearance adjudications. I fail miserably.

                    Went something like GG "Sir, I called DIA." LtCol interrupts "Who did you talk to?" GG: Didn't get a name Sir. Jim something"
                    It went down hill from there. And quick

                    That day, a young Corporal learned about phone logs, and making calls to coordinate the things we needed to discuss. And then making working calls and follow up calls until i had a finished product in hand. IOW Ownership was MINE until Rounds Complete. And other things like Cdrs Intent, ect.

                    Flash forward to the early 90s. We got E-Mail. Or at least Primary Staff Officers got E-mail. It was suppose to be used to sent traffic that wasn't important, like "Officer Wives Potluck Dinner" so that the phones could be used for important things.

                    By the Mid 90s E-mail was used to sent coordinating messages. "Hey I'm gonna call tomorrow at 1400. These are the things we need to discuss"
                    And the norm was E-mail then follow up with a phone call.

                    By the late 90s, in the weekly Bn Cdrs meetings I heard "Sir, I sent them an E-mail. Waiting for a reply". As a standard, and accepted answer.

                    We went from "I'm responsible" to Who can I pass the blame for the job not getting done" and E-mail was the perfect answer. No longer have to do the leg work. I can just e-mail someone and Its no longer my responsibility. Sir, Its not my fault that I have not got a E-mail response". And Commanders let that slide. Now it looks to be SOP.

                    Its the way to get promoted. If they cannot pin it on you, they can't hurt your career.
                    I didn't keep phone logs for conversations within the walls of the Pentagon. You know why? Because I got off my ass and walked the 3/4 of a mile around the E-Ring to look people in the eye when I talked to them. I've found over the years that the truth gets a whole lot truer when you are staring 'em down.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by desertswo View Post
                      I didn't keep phone logs for conversations within the walls of the Pentagon. You know why? Because I got off my ass and walked the 3/4 of a mile around the E-Ring to look people in the eye when I talked to them. I've found over the years that the truth gets a whole lot truer when you are staring 'em down.
                      And that is the secret of how SSGt then GySgt Grape could get all the ranges that the CO wanted. Other companies would have someone, usually the OX or FDO, call Range Control and try to "Schedule a range"

                      I would hoof it down to Range Control and do it in person. Its a lot easier to tell someone on the phone that a range has already been reserved than it is to tell the SNCO thats in front of you (and looking at the scheduling board) that he cannot have a range.

                      In person, with paperwork in hand, beats a phoncon every day of the week.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                        And that is the secret of how SSGt then GySgt Grape could get all the ranges that the CO wanted. Other companies would have someone, usually the OX or FDO, call Range Control and try to "Schedule a range"

                        I would hoof it down to Range Control and do it in person. Its a lot easier to tell someone on the phone that a range has already been reserved than it is to tell the SNCO thats in front of you (and looking at the scheduling board) that he cannot have a range.

                        In person, with paperwork in hand, beats a phoncon every day of the week.
                        I'm not going to lie to you. I have a near pathological distaste for talking on the telephone. I see all these people talking and texting and I just want to pull out my piece and put the dumb bastards out of their misery. Those walks around the Pentagon were also good ways to pick up a little intel. It's amazing what people will discuss over pizza in the cafeteria.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by desertswo View Post
                          I didn't keep phone logs for conversations within the walls of the Pentagon. You know why? Because I got off my ass and walked the 3/4 of a mile around the E-Ring to look people in the eye when I talked to them. I've found over the years that the truth gets a whole lot truer when you are staring 'em down.
                          Sir,

                          That is EXACTLY my point!!!!

                          Face to face is always best....period.

                          And to the Gunny's point....same for washracks, fuel point windows, rail head times, ASP vehicle inspection windows, etc., etc. Ya know, all that POGUE work!
                          “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                          Mark Twain

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                            Sir,

                            That is EXACTLY my point!!!!

                            Face to face is always best....period.

                            And to the Gunny's point....same for washracks, fuel point windows, rail head times, ASP vehicle inspection windows, etc., etc. Ya know, all that POGUE work!
                            Yea, cause if they don't see your way, you can grab them by the stacking swivel and "adjust" them till they see the light:whome:

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                            • #44
                              Or you can offer them some of your USMC Coffee reserves :whome:
                              No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                              To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                                Yea, cause if they don't see your way, you can grab them by the stacking swivel and "adjust" them till they see the light:whome:
                                The Navy version is, "Strap 'em on like an OBA!" (for the uninitiated, an OBA is an "Oxygen Breathing Apparatus" no longer used for fire fighting, but once standard issue aboard USN ships).

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