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Thread: Current Events and F-22 production

  1. #16
    Senior Contributor Stitch's Avatar
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    Everyone Who Wanted More F-22s Is Being Proven Right

    As if they suddenly came to an epiphany, the United States Air Force brass is now admitting what many of us have been screaming about for so long: We didn’t build nearly enough F-22s, and the F-35 cannot simply pick up the slack. So why aren’t those who pushed so hard to cancel the F-22 program being held accountable?

    http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/eve...ght-1732105884
    "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stitch View Post
    As if they suddenly came to an epiphany, the United States Air Force brass is now admitting what many of us have been screaming about for so long: We didn’t build nearly enough F-22s, and the F-35 cannot simply pick up the slack. So why aren’t those who pushed so hard to cancel the F-22 program being held accountable?

    http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/eve...ght-1732105884
    The only person who pushed hard to cancel the F22 was sec def Gates. When the heads of the Air Force pushed hard to sustain production he fired them. What is to be done? Renominate Gates sec def and then fire him?
    Last edited by citanon; 30 Sep 15, at 20:43.

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    Wouldn't it be cheaper for the airforce to push back the Fx program say another 15 years and instead replace it with a F-22x program which will produce a more advances 5,5gen fighter? Russia and China are preoccupied with their 5gens to catchup to an improved super raptor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinja View Post
    Wouldn't it be cheaper for the airforce to push back the Fx program say another 15 years and instead replace it with a F-22x program which will produce a more advances 5,5gen fighter? Russia and China are preoccupied with their 5gens to catchup to an improved super raptor.
    I think the Air Force and the other services are trying out their 5th gen operating concepts, and then will decide where the 6th gen needs to go.

    Rogoway has long been among the haters of the F35 program. He thinks the F22 is needed because the F35 is a failure. He has no real clue how the 5th gen force operates or how the Russian and Chinese efforts compare.

    First of all, the T50 is not a threat to the F35. It is not stealthy. If everything goes well on that program, it will barely have the combat effectiveness of a Super Hornet. Everything is not going well on that program.

    The J31 is just a prototype. No where close to being operational or shooting anything other than exhaust fumes.

    The J20, however, looks increasingly real and possibly challenging. We (meaning the non-classified world) don't know what the J20 can do or what it's designed to do. What we can see is that the J20 is designed to carry a lot of fuel, perhaps fly fast, and carry a lot of sensors and stores. In other words, it might be a plane designed to do stealthy strike and recon missions, or go squirrel on US defenders.

    Against this we will have lots of F35s and a few F22s. We also don't know is what the F22 or the F35 can really do. We can guess that the US 5th gen fighters have the best available anti-stealth technologies built in, and the F35 is actually more stealthy than the F22. What the F35 doesn't have is the F22's kinematics performance, which significantly extends the capabilities of the on-board weapons.

    The problem is, if you only have a bunch of F35s, and you have a very fast, stealthy squirrel probing your defenses, you don't have the ability to chase it down and it might tie up a disproportionately large number of aircraft. If you have more than a few of those squirrels probing your defenses, your F35s are going to get tied down playing defense, and your offensive combat power gets sapped, which accomplishes China's purpose. The F22s, with their kinematic performance, can hold squirrels and popup targets at risk with much better economy of force. This frees up your sorties to go offensive. This is why the Air Force says it needs F22s.

    To sort of compensate for not having enough F22s, the first order business is probably to improve the F15Cs so that you can make use of their kinematics once they are tied into the 5th gen network. The F35s will be the eyes and the F15Cs will punch full afterburner and lob the missile shots. The second order of business is to improve the weapons so that you win back some of the lost kinematics. Put ram-jets on your missiles and you'll get higher confidence shots out of them. (And against ground targets the AF is looking at Mach 3 strike missiles). Also up there is making those weapons more resistant to jamming and better able to track stealthy targets. Japan has started putting AESA seekers on their AAMs. We might have to do the same. All three of the above will probably happen long before an F22 restart or any sort of 5.5 gen or 6th gen effort.
    Last edited by citanon; 01 Oct 15, at 00:32.

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    The Air Force is trying to have their cake and eat it too at the cost of the Army.
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    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    The Air Force is trying to have their cake and eat it too at the cost of the Army.
    Sir, love your avatar.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    Sir, love your avatar.
    Why Thank You!

    I am enjoying the Patriots 2015 Scorched Earth Tour!
    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    I am enjoying the Patriots 2015 Scorched Earth Tour!
    Whoever decided to name the team the "New England" rather than "Boston" Patriots is a marketing genius.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
    Whoever decided to name the team the "New England" rather than "Boston" Patriots is a marketing genius.
    They were the Boston Patriots from 1960 to 1970 when they were in the American Football League. I grew up as a fan of the Boston patriots...saw them play at Fenway Park and Boston University Stadium in the 1960s.

    When the AFL merged with the NFL in 1970 they changed the name to the New England Patriots. I always preferred the older Pat Patriot to the Electric Elvis logo but it will do.

    It was a marketing plan to go regional. But in reality all of the Boston teams have always been regional. The Red Sox cover all of New England. Southwest along from Hartford along the lines of I-84 and south along the Connecticut river (New York old money) you start getting into Yankee/Giants/Mets territory and the Boston teams lose fans.
    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    Why Thank You!

    I am enjoying the Patriots 2015 Scorched Earth Tour!
    I keep telling people Tom Brady used slightly under inflated football to give the Colts a chance in the playoffs. He knew he would destroy any team if the football were properly inflated. The 2nd half of that game proved my point.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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    Meanwhile, the F-15 keeps flying on, and is getting new EW toys, to the tune of USD $4 billion (before overruns).

    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post

    When the AFL merged with the NFL in 1970 they changed the name to the New England Patriots. I always preferred the older Pat Patriot to the Electric Elvis logo but it will do.
    *coff* handegg *coff*

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlvfr View Post
    Meanwhile, the F-15 keeps flying on, and is getting new EW toys, to the tune of USD $4 billion (before overruns).
    Well, not too surprising, considering that between the low numbers of F-22's we ultimately acquired, and the late IOC of the F-35, something was going to have to fill in until 2030 or so. Buying F-22's is out of the question, and the Air Force is obviously aware that they will never get enough F-35's to replace all of their front-line fighters on a one-to-one basis, so the F-15 will have to soldier on until the sixth-gen fighter comes online.
    "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

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    Quote Originally Posted by citanon View Post
    First of all, the T50 is not a threat to the F35. It is not stealthy. ........The J20, however, looks increasingly real and possibly challenging.
    I am surprised that you give more credit to the J20 than the T50. Are you of the opinion that China has done a better job than the Russians?

    Quote Originally Posted by citanon View Post
    First of all, the T50 is not a threat to the F35. It is not stealthy. .....
    Do you consider a canard (that the J20 is) stealthier than the PAK 50. I might be wrong but I think I read an article somewhere which said the they have s-ducted the T50 now, wouldn't that make is stealthier than the J20?

    Quote Originally Posted by citanon View Post
    The problem is, if you only have a bunch of F35s, and you have a very fast, stealthy squirrel probing your defenses, you don't have the ability to chase it down and it might tie up a disproportionately large number of aircraft. If you have more than a few of those squirrels probing your defenses, your F35s are going to get tied down playing defense, and your offensive combat power gets sapped, which accomplishes China's purpose. The F22s, with their kinematic performance, can hold squirrels and popup targets at risk with much better economy of force. This frees up your sorties to go offensive. This is why the Air Force says it needs F22s.
    We don't know the capabilities of Russian IRST. Everyone has been caught by surprise at Russian missiles hitting targets 1,000m away, we just don't know. If the F35's best defense against the T50 and and J20 is the hope that it will never come within reach of them, that is not very assuring. Also factor in ROI, if it is still physical identification the F35 becomes very precarious at best. Besides, what you describe is all good and all for the US which has the big daddy (F22), what about US allies

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    Why Thank You!

    I am enjoying the Patriots 2015 Scorched Earth Tour!
    Thats a good thing, Since the Bruins look like they are about to lose the first 2 games of their season
    Human Scum. Proud Never Trumper

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinja View Post
    I am surprised that you give more credit to the J20 than the T50. Are you of the opinion that China has done a better job than the Russians?

    Do you consider a canard (that the J20 is) stealthier than the PAK 50. I might be wrong but I think I read an article somewhere which said the they have s-ducted the T50 now, wouldn't that make is stealthier than the J20?
    Yes, there is no way they can achieve stealth with the very crude finishings they have on the T50. Russian manufacturing simply isn't there. Even if the shape is right (it doesn't look to be), the apertures will completely ruin any stealthiness. The surface and manufacturing qualities of the J20 are much more impressive. It has canards but the belief that canards ruin stealth seems to be a popular myth more than anything else.

    China also has a better electronics industry than Russia so all of the electronics hardware are going to be better, if not now then certainly in a decade.

    We don't know the capabilities of Russian IRST. Everyone has been caught by surprise at Russian missiles hitting targets 1,000m away, we just don't know. If the F35's best defense against the T50 and and J20 is the hope that it will never come within reach of them, that is not very assuring. Also factor in ROI, if it is still physical identification the F35 becomes very precarious at best. Besides, what you describe is all good and all for the US which has the big daddy (F22), what about US allies
    We know that their IRST are not even focal plane arrays. They are more like crude diodes, so at least 2 gen behind what's on the F35. It's also a myth that ROE always require vis-id. They usually require positive ID. With the F35, even if visual id was required, it could be done from 10s of nm or more away with its IRST. In fact, that's probably not necessary as the US showed earlier this month by detecting Russian jets as they went into Syria.

    Plus, I doubt very few military experts were surprised by a Russian cruise missile. What may have shocked the Russians though, is that we knew where every cruise missile went. The implications of that for them in war time.... well, you can guess.
    Last edited by citanon; 11 Oct 15, at 06:19.

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