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Thread: 777 missing with 239 souls on board

  1. #91
    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave lukins View Post
    ''American transport officials warned of a potential weak spot in Boeing 777s which could lead to the "loss of structural integrity of the aircraft" four months before the disappearance of Malaysia airlines Flight MH370. In 2005, a 777 operated by Malaysia Airlines suffered problems with its autopilot system on a flight between Perth and Kuala Lumpur. It led to the plane pitching up into a sudden 3,000-foot climb, almost causing the plane to stall. The problem led to another airworthiness directive to correct a computer fault that had been found on 500 Boeing 777s. ''
    However that article is slightly wrong as were a few other newspapers. The Malaysian plane was a 777-200ER which was not included in that directive relating to the first sentence.

    Missing MH370: FAA proposed new directive for Boeing 777s six months ago - Nation | The Star Online
    PETALING JAYA: The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) had proposed a new airworthiness directive (AD) for Boeing 777s last September which would prevent “loss of structural integrity of the airplane”.

    However the AD applied to other B777 models not the B777-200ER which is the model of the missing MH370.

    The FAA said the AD had been prompted by a report of cracking in the fuselage skin underneath the satellite communication (SATCOM) antenna adapter.



    The FAA said it had also determined that this unsafe condition “is likely to exist or develop in other products of the same type design”.



    “We are proposing this AD to detect and correct cracking and corrosion in the fuselage skin, which could lead to rapid decompression and loss of structural integrity of the airplane,” it said in a notice of proposed rulemaking issued last Sept 18.



    It added that the AD applied to the B777-200, -200LR, -300, -300ER and -777F series airplanes.



    The missing Malaysia Airlines aircraft bearing 239 people onboard is a B777-200ER, and despite massive search and rescue efforts, authorities have yet to locate it after it went off five days ago while en route to Beijing.
    Here is the 2005 AD regarding the autopilot and nose pitch. Only talks about certain Boeing Models 777-200 and -300 series planes. No more specificity than that so can't tell if that means the -200ER is not included.

    http://avisupser.dgrsolutions.com/ad/2005-18-51.pdf
    Last edited by tbm3fan; 12 Mar 14, at 08:06.

  2. #92
    Banned tankie's Avatar
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    Why was there no distress signal?

    One explanation is that the plane fell into a communications black spot. Former Boeing 777 instructor and United Airlines captain Ross Aimer explained: "These are very sophisticated (items of) equipment that should have been working under any conditions - in the water, in the jungle, after a fire, after an explosion - and none of them have talked to the outside world yet. There are spots in the world, however, that are called blind spots, where you cannot communicate for some reason. Unfortunately, that area near Vietnam, over the Gulf of Thailand, those are some of the black spots."

    An explanation on the ringing phones .

    http://paid.outbrain.com/network/red...&did=756089718
    Last edited by tankie; 12 Mar 14, at 09:29.

  3. #93
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    This whole affair has made me rather more sad because there is no closure to it. Then being living in this Information-Modern age, such things can happens tells me how helpless we can become even using such state of the art machines and systems at our disposal for backup and rescue. I am frequent traveller of this Airline, my mum came to see us by using this airline in February.

  4. #94
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    The thing that gets me is that here and there, this or that crash, comments that conditions put the plane into a stall and down it went.

    A stall at 35K feet? How is that a disaster? In the 70's, it was a popular discussion item as an anti hijacker move. They come to the cockpit, pull back on the yoke, stall it, they hit the ceiling while you recover. (Army Aviators, you know)

    Off hand, I can see two issues where it would be a very bad thing. First, the stall is not recognized and something (pilot, computer, weather) prevents a recovery. Secondly, a spin results and again, something prevents recovery (ie, the shaking of the bad air from the wing).

    Thoughts?

  5. #95
    Contributor Aryajet's Avatar
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    Take a look at this radar playback from Flightrader24. It shows the FL MH57 which was in front of MH370 (if you hover your coarser over the plane behind MH57 it will display the FL #). MH57 has already done a coarse change over water and was already over Cambodia. Then MH370 does the same slight coarse change and disappears immediately after. very strange.

    Flightradar24.com - Live flight tracker!
    Last edited by Aryajet; 12 Mar 14, at 20:46.

  6. #96
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamara View Post
    The thing that gets me is that here and there, this or that crash, comments that conditions put the plane into a stall and down it went.

    A stall at 35K feet? How is that a disaster? In the 70's, it was a popular discussion item as an anti hijacker move. They come to the cockpit, pull back on the yoke, stall it, they hit the ceiling while you recover. (Army Aviators, you know)

    Off hand, I can see two issues where it would be a very bad thing. First, the stall is not recognized and something (pilot, computer, weather) prevents a recovery. Secondly, a spin results and again, something prevents recovery (ie, the shaking of the bad air from the wing).

    Thoughts?
    When it comes to the technicalities of planes crashing the smartest thing we can do is quote people who have a deep understanding of this stuff. Of course, they can only go on the available data too.

    Unfortunately I don't have time to pull out the diagrams at the link, but there is more info including footage & diagrams. I recommend it.


    MISSING Malaysian airlines Flight MH370 most likely stalled and lost altitude dramatically before plummeting into the sea, a top aviation lawyer has said.

    Former Inspector General of the United States Department of Transportation Mary Schiavo, who has dealt with some of the world’s biggest airline disasters, told the 7.30 Report not a lot of information was known about the jet’s final minutes.

    But she said reports it dropped suddenly before going off the radar suggested a stall.

    The Boeing 777 disappeared with 239 passengers on-board, including six Australians, in the early hours of Saturday en route from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing.

    Ms Schiavo, who represented both families of passengers and crew in the 9-11 attacks as well as a fatal Air France crash in 2009, told 7.30 presenter Sarah Ferguson the lack of contact with the jet was strange since 777s are designed to provide information to the airline’s base at all times.

    She added reports the plane made a sharp right run and dropped suddenly before it went off the radar indicated the plane may have literally fallen out of the sky.

    To me that suggests a stall. When an aeroplane stalls — and that doesn’t mean you lose your engines, it means that you’re losing your air flow over your wings, sufficient speed to keep the plane in the air,” she told Ferguson during last night’s 7.30 Report.

    “What happens is the plane noses up and it goes up like this and then it kind of shakes and then it falls off and it would lose altitude really dramatically and that’s what happens in a stall.”

    She added it was possible to recover from a stall but pilots had to be on top of their instruments and flying carefully.

    The US lawyer said the same thing happened with Air France 447 where air space deteriorated, pilots encountered weather problems and there wasn’t enough air flow over the wings to keep it in the air.

    Ms Schiavo’s comments follow earlier reports which claimed the plane had dropped 200m suddenly and changed course just before contact was lost.

    Aviation experts speculate it could mean the plane suffered engine failure, the plane swerved to avoid another jet or an explosion had taken place.

    If Ms Schiavo is correct in this case, it wouldn’t be the first time a plane had stalled with catastrophic consequences.

    In 2009 Air France Flight 447 from Rio de Janeiro to Paris crashed after the Airbus A330 plunged into the Atlantic Ocean, killing all 228 on board.

    It took three years for investigators to discover that ice crystals had most likely blocked the plane’s air speed sensors, eventually leading to the plane to stall.

    In May last year, a US cargo airline crash killed all seven crew members on board after taking-off from Bagram air base in Afghanistan.

    Video of the crash shows the Boeing-747 taking off, then appearing to float in the air before tipping its nose up in the air and plummeting to the ground, bursting into flames.

    While the cause of the crash remains unknown, Fox News reported there was speculation the cargo may have suddenly shifted during the plane’s climb.

    This could affect airflow over a plane’s wings, potentially causing it to stall and crash suddenly.
    Aviation lawyer Mary Schiavo said Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 may have stalled before crashing into the sea | News.com.au


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  7. #97
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    I wondered how long it would take for the criticism of Malaysia to start. At this stage they don't appear to have handled this well. I guess we won't really know until the plane is found.

    Missing Malaysia Airlines jet: Criticism of authorities mounts as search area is widened


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  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    When it comes to the technicalities of planes crashing the smartest thing we can do is quote people who have a deep understanding of this stuff. Of course, they can only go on the available data too.

    Unfortunately I don't have time to pull out the diagrams at the link, but there is more info including footage & diagrams. I recommend it.




    Aviation lawyer Mary Schiavo said Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 may have stalled before crashing into the sea | News.com.au
    Yeah, well, I'm a pilot as well and I know about stalls. It's part of my training, from power off stalls to power on stalls, to spin recovery. To say nothing about retreating blade stall which is a factor about helicopters. (I don't fly helicopters but have had minimal training in them and worked around them a lot in the past)

    So all she is saying is basic to me......and I find it very confusing of why an aircraft at 35K feet can't recover from a stall............unless something is preventing it.

    Additional: it's wiki, but 1994 Fairchild Air Force Base B-52 crash illustrates that is is possible can recover if you have the altitude.
    Last edited by Tamara; 12 Mar 14, at 21:24.

  9. #99
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    I feel really sorry for the families of the passengers. May God give them strength to go trough all of this.

    The level of conspiracy mounting on social networks is stunning it makes me wanna puke.
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  10. #100
    Dirty Kiwi Senior Contributor
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamara View Post
    Yeah, well, I'm a pilot as well and I know about stalls. It's part of my training, from power off stalls to power on stalls, to spin recovery. To say nothing about retreating blade stall which is a factor about helicopters. (I don't fly helicopters but have had minimal training in them and worked around them a lot in the past)

    So all she is saying is basic to me......and I find it very confusing of why an aircraft at 35K feet can't recover from a stall............unless something is preventing it.
    And yet it happens
    Air France Flight 447 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parihaka View Post
    Like I said ....................... unless something is preventing it.

    So perhaps the more correct thing to say is "Possibly (since we don't know yet), something caused the aircraft to stall and the crew did not recover from the stall."

    Okay, granted, that is potentially slanderous and until the report is made, it can't be said, so perhaps nothing should be said.

    Long story short, like I said, a cockpit that can't recover from a stall at 35K feet? Unbelievable unless there is something in our crew training that prevents it, there is something in our computers that prevents it, .................or there is something else happening on this planet that prevents it.

    If that is what is happening, unrecoverable stalls, then perhaps we better be looking for more answers.

    IMHO...........(little bit tense right now because I don't like being talked down to by the news).

  12. #102
    Idiot Mode [ON] OFF Senior Contributor YellowFever's Avatar
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    It just keeps getting weirder....



    Oil Rig Worker Thinks He Saw Malaysia Flight In Flames - Business Insider



    Oil Rig Worker Thinks He Saw Malaysia Air Flight 370 Go Down In Flames

    The Wire
    Abby Ohlheiser, The Wire
    Mar. 12, 2014, 12:13



    In yet another odd twist to the mysterious story of Malaysian Airlines Flight 370, a New Zealand man working on an oil rig in the South China Sea has come forward to say he believes he saw the airplane on fire right around the time it disappeared.

    Mike McKay, a worker on the "Songa Mercur" drilling platform, sent an email to his bosses detailing his version of events. McKay said that he "observed the plane burning at high altitude...in one piece" about 50-70 KM from his location.

    He gave coordinates for the location of the rig, which recently moved from Cuba to the shores of Vietnam. McKay's employer confirms that the letter, posted online by several news outlets today, is authentic.

    ABC's Bob Woodruff spoke with the Japanese Idemitsu Oil & Gas Co after acquiring the letter to confirm the letter's veracity. McKay, who carries a New Zealand passport, said that he tried to contact Malaysian and Vietnam officials about what he saw "several days ago," adding that he'd received no confirmation that they got his message.

    Vietnamese officials confirmed to ABC that they'd received the letter. Apparently, they found nothing in the water at the location specified by McKay.

    Given the apparent location of the rig, and the original flight path of MH370, it's possible that McKay is correct. But that would also seem to discount the theory that the plane turned and headed in the complete opposite direction, as some military authorities have (at least temporarily) claimed.

    Meanwhile, officials are expanding their search for the still-missing plane, and the 239 people on board. There are several reports indicating that the plane may have veered off its intended flight path and changed direction before disappearing from radar, but those reports conflict as to where, exactly it went.

    At least 10 countries are involved in the Malaysian-led search for the missing jet, which carried passengers from at least 13 different countries, although most of the passengers were Chinese citizens.

    Here's the full letter:

    Attachment 35883

  13. #103
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    Last edited by citanon; 12 Mar 14, at 22:21.

  14. #104
    Dirty Kiwi Senior Contributor
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    Quote Originally Posted by YellowFever View Post
    It just keeps getting weirder....



    Oil Rig Worker Thinks He Saw Malaysia Flight In Flames - Business Insider



    Oil Rig Worker Thinks He Saw Malaysia Air Flight 370 Go Down In Flames

    The Wire
    Abby Ohlheiser, The Wire
    Mar. 12, 2014, 12:13



    In yet another odd twist to the mysterious story of Malaysian Airlines Flight 370, a New Zealand man working on an oil rig in the South China Sea has come forward to say he believes he saw the airplane on fire right around the time it disappeared.

    Mike McKay, a worker on the "Songa Mercur" drilling platform, sent an email to his bosses detailing his version of events. McKay said that he "observed the plane burning at high altitude...in one piece" about 50-70 KM from his location.

    He gave coordinates for the location of the rig, which recently moved from Cuba to the shores of Vietnam. McKay's employer confirms that the letter, posted online by several news outlets today, is authentic.

    ABC's Bob Woodruff spoke with the Japanese Idemitsu Oil & Gas Co after acquiring the letter to confirm the letter's veracity. McKay, who carries a New Zealand passport, said that he tried to contact Malaysian and Vietnam officials about what he saw "several days ago," adding that he'd received no confirmation that they got his message.

    Vietnamese officials confirmed to ABC that they'd received the letter. Apparently, they found nothing in the water at the location specified by McKay.

    Given the apparent location of the rig, and the original flight path of MH370, it's possible that McKay is correct. But that would also seem to discount the theory that the plane turned and headed in the complete opposite direction, as some military authorities have (at least temporarily) claimed.

    Meanwhile, officials are expanding their search for the still-missing plane, and the 239 people on board. There are several reports indicating that the plane may have veered off its intended flight path and changed direction before disappearing from radar, but those reports conflict as to where, exactly it went.

    At least 10 countries are involved in the Malaysian-led search for the missing jet, which carried passengers from at least 13 different countries, although most of the passengers were Chinese citizens.

    Here's the full letter:
    As far as i'm aware there are only between 100 to 200 actual New Zealanders and none of them are called McKay as we don't let them in. Obviously a fake
    In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

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  15. #105
    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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    How about this. Since I was down on the Hornet today I could talk to three docents who were Navy pilots and then civilian for United and American. All retired but still keep up with things on a pilots forum. So I asked if they ever disappeared in a plane only to be found again. Joking with them there.

    However, here is their thoughts about a possible scenario that they think is actually more probable than a 777 going down mysteriously. They know, and we now know, that the co-pilot had a habit of opening the cabin door to invite female guests onto the flight deck. They are also aware that there are some issues with Muslim extremists in Malaysia who have more typically put bombs in Aussie frequented hotels. Just relating that part as I can't say I've seen that but they are pulling info in from many pilots.

    We also know the plane vanished on civilian radar because it is dependent of the plane's transponder. They believe it was turned off on purpose. They also think the plane then did a turn, dropped in altitude and headed off in a different direction. Being a night flight with 6-8 hours of fuel there would be a lot of places for the plane to go and land before sunrise. The end result is that the plane is now on the deck and possibly hidden with the purpose either to get a plane or get hostages.

    Anyway that was their honest assessment and from their conversations with other pilots discussing the matter. They felt that was more likely than a 777 going down without a trace.

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