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Bloody outcome in Kiev, Feb.19, 2014

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  • #61
    As long as innocents drop dead there is not one who is right. We will see who will be left.

    About your situation in 1989, we had the same in 1948. The big brother scrambled to our borders, but never made that final step to get it.
    The scenario is the same, they are not there for a war. However, they managed to do that stunt in Hungary and later in Czechoslovakia.

    Neutrality comes with a price. Seems not one of the Ukrainian elites is willing to take the risk. It's easier to divide the people, take 1/2 of the country and live happily ever after.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by cyppok View Post
      its actually 43 now.

      Violence begets Violence.
      Lots of heroes hiding behind peaceful protestors using them as human shields to attack gov't officials, sooner or later people begin to defend themselves and innocent blood is shed. Whom is more culpable?

      Yea yea but wrong.



      Who's doing the shooting? Well clearly not the protestors there. To be honest though it's probably not 'special forces' or Berkut but what are called titushki or armed (and often organised) irregulars. Here are titushki at work in Odessa, clearly fighting both pro peaceful pro Maidan protestors and police (note the 'uniform') ;



      As for yesterday the message posted here http://www.mil.gov.ua/index.php?lang...=read&id=32678 announcing 'anti terrorist operations', clearly preceded the appointment of Admiral Illyin. Translation goes roughly

      According to Article 5 of the Law of Ukraine "On combating terrorism" Ministry of Defense of Ukraine, bodies of military management, formations and units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine to protect against terrorist attacks facilities of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, firearms, ammunition, explosives and poisonous substances that are in the army or stored in designated areas.
      Under section 15 of the Act, in the area of ??counter-terrorist operations of the Armed Forces of Ukraine have the right to:
      - use in accordance with the laws of Ukraine weapons and special means;
      - apprehend and deliver to the internal affairs of persons who commit or committing an offense or other action;
      - check of the citizens and officials of documents , identification, and in the absence of documents - to detain them for identification;
      - to carry out in the area of counter-terrorism operation personal care nationals review things that are in them, vehicles and things that they carried;
      - Provisionally restrict or prohibit the movement of vehicles and pedestrians on streets and roads.
      This followed allegations that protestors had 'looted' weapons from Western Ukraine (Tarnopil). Nothing was actually 'looted' in Tarnopil or Ivano Frankivsk as the police and local armed forces refused to obey illegal orders. According to my sources some weapons did change hands but the vast majority stayed in the hands of the police and army who changed sides. Also yesterday Lviv declared de facto independence;

      "The executive committee of the Lviv region's council, the People's Rada, is assuming full responsibility for the fate of the region and citizens, the Lviv region's council said in a statement. "The regime has begun active military action against people […] Dozens of people have been killed in Kyiv and hundreds have been wounded […] Fulfilling the will of society, the executive committee of the Lviv region's council, the People's Rada, is assuming full responsibility for the fate of the region and its citizens," the statement says.
      The executive committee is comprised deputies, representatives of the Maidan self-defense, public figures, and scientists, the Lviv region's council has reported. The executive committee is led by Petro Kolodiy, chairman of the Lviv region's council.
      The executive committee controls all executive administration bodies on the territory of the region and is calling on all state servants and citizens to fulfill decisions and orders signed by Kolodiy, the document says.
      The document reiterates that the main function of the executive committee is to maintain law and order in the region and help send activists to Kyiv and provide the Maidan activists with everything they need.
      "The lawfully elected local councils and the executive committees created by them remain the legitimate authorities in the Lviv region. The majority of the district police departments have already announced their decision to take the side of the people of Ukraine and report to the executive committee of the Lviv region's council," the statement says.
      Executive committee of Lviv region's council decides to take power in region in its hands

      In general Yanukovich' ability to maintain order is fast ebbing away. He will say he does want to spill blood etc or use force but he has tried to do precisely these things; he said that Maidan had to be cleared and it certainly wasn't the protestors that burned down the Union building which was being used as a hospital and for people to sleep etc... If he had managed to clear Maidan on Tuesday night, as he clearly wished to do, it still wouldn't have helped him. Kyiv would itself have been isolated as the rest of the country fell to the opposition. It was his decision to attack what was until Tuesday peaceful protestors in Maidan that has caused all developments since then. On Monday occupied buildings had been returned and those arrested in January had been released under the amnesty - all was good. On Tuesday Yanukovich blocked the debate on the Constitution in the Rada and ordered Berkut to "clear Maidan"; he refused to negotiate with Opposition leaders on Tuesday night insisting that Maidan had to be cleared. They tried and failed.





      This prompted the action in Western and Central Ukraine, which had in fact been rehearsed in January until the Jan 16th laws were repealed. Attacking Maidan and burning the Union building on Tuesday was clearly contrary to the moves of reconciliation upto Monday so obviously something changed between Monday and Tuesday to cause the change. Different theories exist about that but none are as yet verifiable.

      Comment


      • #63
        Snapper,

        Someone in the army refuses to follow orders, keeps the armament and yet it's not looting? How so?
        No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

        To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

        Comment


        • #64
          The duty of the police and army is to protect civilians from those who might attack them. They said they refused to obey illegal orders - attack their own people.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by snapper View Post
            The duty of the police and army is to protect civilians from those who might attack them. They said they refused to obey illegal orders - attack their own people.
            Here is what you said:
            vast majority stayed in the hands of the police and army who changed sides
            You also said:
            Also yesterday Lviv declared de facto independence;
            I am just guessing here, but is there something in the Constitution about declaring secession? Or about the army guarantying the territorial integrity of the country?
            No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

            To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by snapper View Post
              Yea yea but wrong.
              In general Yanukovich' ability to maintain order is fast ebbing away.
              Is it? because some empty buildings were taken or oblasts where the people in charge are already from the opposition?

              I wonder what the Rada is going to do, that is a very interesting development.

              Unless you also tell me that the cops and berkut shot themselves as well and they also set themselves on fire and beat their own heads with rocks. Both sides engaged in violence, 'the end'.
              Originally from Sochi, Russia.

              Comment


              • #67
                Dok, all was peaceful - no secession or changing sides until orders were given on Tuesday. Some considered those orders illegal so are acting legally in disobeying them. You can't 'loot' people who are on the same side and willingly share what they have.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Protesters were also seen leading policemen with their hands held high around the sprawling protest camp in central Kiev. Ukraine's Interior ministry says 67 police were captured in all. It was not clear how they were taken. An opposition lawmaker said they were being held in Kiev's occupied city hall.
                  Melee in Kiev: 33 people dead, 67 police captured

                  they now have 67 shields. and i'm not talking about mettal ones
                  Last edited by omon; 20 Feb 14,, 17:25.
                  "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" B. Franklin

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    This is so familiar...
                    Peter Ackerman and Colonel Robert "Bob" Helvey ride again...Image to the left is Belgrade 2000 and the image to the right is Ukraine today. But I must say, during those days, I truly believed in the cause and the idea. It was the unleashed dogs that uncovered the whole plan, but I must say "Canvas" did a brilliant job after all.
                    Attached Files
                    Last edited by Versus; 20 Feb 14,, 18:38.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by snapper View Post
                      Dok, all was peaceful - no secession or changing sides until orders were given on Tuesday. Some considered those orders illegal so are acting legally in disobeying them. You can't 'loot' people who are on the same side and willingly share what they have.
                      ??????? ???? ? ??????? ????????? ??????????? ????????? ???-???????, - ????????? - "????????" ??????? ???????? ???? ?? ??????, ???? ????????? - LB.ua
                      Translation " Efremov going to Luhansk to discuss possible seperation of South-Eastern regions if the president does not stabilize the situation and enforces peace "

                      Basically he is saying either enforce peace or we discuss plan B where South-East leaves and you can deal with whatever is left.
                      [interesting phenomena] He is the party leader of Party of Regions.

                      White House demands from Yanukovych to withdraw forces from center of Kyiv : UNIAN news
                      Last but not least I found this funny
                      The leadership of the USA demanded from the Ukrainian President to withdraw all security forces from the center of Kyiv and to allow opposition to hold the protest actions.
                      That is some non-intervention right there.

                      Уже 130 милиционеров доÑтавлены в Ð¼ÐµÐ´Ð·Ð°Ð²ÐµÐ´ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ Ñ Ð¾Ð³Ð½ÐµÑтрельными ранениÑми - МВД : ÐовоÑти УÐИÐÐ
                      "130 cops are in medical facilities for being shot"
                      I am sure they shot themselves. Its' all propaganda by "Russia". *sarcasm*
                      Last edited by cyppok; 20 Feb 14,, 19:02.
                      Originally from Sochi, Russia.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        That's your most exported item, Versus.
                        No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                        To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Tsk,tsk....we are just a test site, a sand box for the others to play in. The thing was hatched here, but it wasn't our design.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by snapper View Post
                            Dok, all was peaceful - no secession or changing sides until orders were given on Tuesday.
                            You seriously believe in what you wrote? Let's see...

                            This is from FOX, not some Putin controlled media:

                            Feb. 18: Street clashes leave at least 26 people, including 10 police officers, dead and hundreds injured. The violence begins when protesters attack police lines and set fires outside parliament after it stalls on taking up a constitutional reform to limit presidential powers. Russia's offer the day before to resume payments under the bailout deal also feeds opposition suspicions that Yanukovych has made a deal with Moscow to stand firm against the protesters. Riot police respond to the violence by trying to push protesters off Independence Square.
                            Some considered those orders illegal so are acting legally in disobeying them.
                            Time will tell, if they win, they will be heroes, if not, they will hang somewhere.

                            You can't 'loot' people who are on the same side and willingly share what they have.
                            Those weapons don't belong to "some people", but to the Ukrainian Army and Police. Those who arm the civilians are not doing a favor to anyone, nor their actions are lawful.
                            No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                            To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Versus View Post
                              Tsk,tsk....we are just a test site, a sand box for the others to play in. The thing was hatched here, but it wasn't our design.
                              Yep, we were always special ;)
                              No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                              To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Don't forget the snipers, Dok, they have them too.

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