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Thread: Net neutrality is dead

  1. #46
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    When the entry barrier is due to laws and operational hurdles, put in there by lobbyists? You bet there is
    Why would a government succomb to lobbyists hired by evil corporations to do their biddings?

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    In the Broadband market it is the opposite. There are entry barriers put in place by the government, working for broadband industry lobbyists.
    So these lobbyists work in concert with the government, not for the people, but for the evil corporations? Why would a government do that?

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    And if the population under this municipality is ok with this tax, then what is your or mine problem? What gives the corporations the right to stop their entry, especially when they are not willing to expand their services themselves?
    I am just fine with that. The majority rules. The good of the many outweighs the good of the few. Where have I heard that before?


    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    And when they provide a essential service that private industry cannot or will not provide, I say that this it fine. you can keep quoting the constitution here if you want, but just like water and electricity, broadband and telecom are utilities and need to be treated as such.
    I disagree with water and electricity being utility. I disagree with the concept of "utility."

    Let's just say broadband and telecom should be treated as utility. What else should we treat as utility? Gasoline? Food?

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    Have you been to Europe? I would take their train service to the US Aeroplane based service any day, twice on weekdays. And I am not convinced that they finance that through gas dollar. Europe has a lot more things than the US to finance than just mass transit.
    No I have not been to Europe. I have a trip planned already for this summer.

    I despise mass transit system. It defies the very concept of self-reliance. I have to rely on a government or private service to get to where I need to go. It restricts my freedom of movement.

    Remember Boston Bombing last year? The most striking report I heard from TV was "Boston has shut down mass transit" to restrict population movement.

    Mass transit is yet another method the government uses to control the populace. Mass transit is most efficient in high population density areas. Guess what? It's easier to control a lot of people in a smaller area than to control the same population in a spread out area. These 2 things feed off each other. Large population in high density cities require a lot of government services. The population are essentially turned into drones. They go to work to make money, pay high taxes, and in turn use all sorts of government services their tax dollars buy. It's a socialist pyramid scheme.

    The tickets people buy to ride mass transit is just an illusion of self-determination government put in place to fool the people.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  2. #47
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    Why would a government succomb to lobbyists hired by evil corporations to do their biddings?

    So these lobbyists work in concert with the government, not for the people, but for the evil corporations? Why would a government do that?
    Is that a rhetorical question? Or are you disagreeing that that actually happens? Look, I believe all lobbying (by corporations and unions) should be completely banned. Corporations, Unions an PACs are not people, only people are people. Everything else is double dipping. Industries across the board have been hamstrung by this sort of political maneuvering. See how the NJ Car dealers lobby spiked Tesla.

    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    I am just fine with that. The majority rules. The good of the many outweighs the good of the few. Where have I heard that before?
    Your favorite broadband companies are not.

    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    I disagree with water and electricity being utility. I disagree with the concept of "utility."

    If we are talking about an undifferentiated product requiring large networks to be transported I don't see why they should be treated as anything other than utility.

    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    Let's just say broadband and telecom should be treated as utility. What else should we treat as utility? Gasoline? Food?
    Gasoline : If we are talking about the generic undifferentiated variety, why not? Put the savings from building multiple redundant networks into drill baby drill.

    Food: It does not make sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    No I have not been to Europe. I have a trip planned already for this summer.
    Where are you going?

    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    I despise mass transit system. It defies the very concept of self-reliance. I have to rely on a government or private service to get to where I need to go. It restricts my freedom of movement.
    It also gets commuters from point to point in the most efficient manner possible. Don't like it? Duke it out in the traffic. Now imagine everyone (including those previously using mass transit) duking it out in the traffic.

    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    Mass transit is yet another method the government uses to control the populace. Mass transit is most efficient in high population density areas. Guess what? It's easier to control a lot of people in a smaller area than to control the same population in a spread out area. These 2 things feed off each other. Large population in high density cities require a lot of government services. The population are essentially turned into drones. They go to work to make money, pay high taxes, and in turn use all sorts of government services their tax dollars buy. It's a socialist pyramid scheme.

    The tickets people buy to ride mass transit is just an illusion of self-determination government put in place to fool the people.
    And for the foreseeable future, people will live in clusters and they will pool money to pay for systems they use commonly.
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  3. #48
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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  4. #49
    Senior Contributor SteveDaPirate's Avatar
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    Looks good so far, but it isn't official just yet. I can guarantee that the major ISPs are gearing up for a major legal challenge to the ruling if it upholds net neutrality and classifies ISPs as a common carrier.

    I am optimistic, but not completely sold.

  5. #50
    Military Enthusiast Senior Contributor
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    On the face of it, net neutrality seems to be a good idea until you put it into practice. You will quickly see the inherent flaws in the concept of net neutrality. It is a utopian idea, unworkable in reality. I see internet more of a transmission of digital goods, equivalent to Fedex, UPS, US postal service, DHL, and other countries' postal service. They don't really look at the content inside except to ensure that there are no hazardous or illegal goods being moved. They only care about the weight and the size and they price it accordingly. If you were to apply the concept of net neutrality to those physical mailing service providers, they would quickly revolt and call for tar and feathers and run you out of town for good reason.

    In order to be market competitive and compatible with the ideals of capitalism, innovation, and entrepreneurship, the concept of net neutrality needs to allow for price banding based on bandwidth usage and duration and capacity utilization. Otherwise, no one would have the motivation to go out and build a bigger and better 5g or 6g network where instead of cell towers, we would have extremely powerful satellite orbiting transponders that are capable of servicing 10 billion devices at any given time any day of the week any month of the year and you only need to pay a flat rate fee and you can connect to any website, browse the Internet at your leisure, download movies all you want or based on your subscription without suffering any slowdown in speed, without suffering any gap in coverage or dropped calls at any point of the world whether you be in the middle of a desert nowhere or in the middle of an ocean thousands of miles from any inhabited land.

    This version of net neutrality would kill such innovation or development and cause stagnation of the Internet and cellular networks. There's no such thing as a free ride or lunch. One way or the other, we all have to pay for the infrastructure we use or desire to have.

  6. #51
    Armchair Worrier Senior Contributor bolo121's Avatar
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    Looks like the FCC has decided to do the right thing, classifying broadband as a Title II communications service.
    Now hopefully as usually happens the same merry band in India who copy internet regulations as they come out of US will have the wind taken out of their sails.


    I disagree with Blade's interpretation.
    Net neutrality is vital to preserve what few fragments are left of the once free and open web.
    Various harsh laws passed under the excuse of terror prevention, so called software/media piracy prevention and alphabet soup agencies spying away happily have wrecked the Internet.
    Now the corporate scum want to make a internet class system where they decide which sites run smoothly and which sites have lag. It is a tool ripe for misuse by corporates and government.
    Internet provision should be considered in the same way as any other vital public utility like electricity or water.
    Bulk users pay more sure but other than that no traffic preferment or shaping.

    In a just world these quasi monopolies like comcast, verizon and AT&T should have long ago been broken up and their management fined or imprisoned.
    Last edited by bolo121; 27 Feb 15, at 03:26.
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  7. #52
    Military Enthusiast Senior Contributor
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    Nothing is free in life. One way or the other, we all have to pay for it. You want faster service? Then pay for the infrastructure that allows you to have faster service. Netflix wants to expand its subscriber base without paying for the means of doing it. It wants other companies to foot the bill and ride the coattails laughing all the way to the bank. Same thing with other content providers that demand an ever increasing usage of bandwidth that causes other content providers who do not need much bandwidth to suffer in the process but forces the costs on those content providers that do not need that extra bandwidth.

    If you want to be able to download HD movies with IMAX sound features in less than 1 minute or play high level 3d or multirole gaming games with no lag time anywhere in the world anytime, that ain't cheap. So content do determine the kind of bandwidth.

  8. #53
    Armchair Worrier Senior Contributor bolo121's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blademaster View Post
    Nothing is free in life. One way or the other, we all have to pay for it. You want faster service? Then pay for the infrastructure that allows you to have faster service. Netflix wants to expand its subscriber base without paying for the means of doing it. It wants other companies to foot the bill and ride the coattails laughing all the way to the bank. Same thing with other content providers that demand an ever increasing usage of bandwidth that causes other content providers who do not need much bandwidth to suffer in the process but forces the costs on those content providers that do not need that extra bandwidth.

    If you want to be able to download HD movies with IMAX sound features in less than 1 minute or play high level 3d or multirole gaming games with no lag time anywhere in the world anytime, that ain't cheap. So content do determine the kind of bandwidth.
    Not free i agree, but if such pricing is permitted you and i both know misuse and loopholes by corporates and governments will be rampant.
    It will be like indian railways version of internet.
    Most of us stuck in UR, a large chunk in second, middle class in 3AC and others enjoying 2AC.

    So if a company is a heavy broadband user, its fine treat them like a heavy industry consuming water or power.
    If a user wants 1 gbps fiber connection, sure let him pay more dollars.
    But no discrimination of the content delivered over it.

    The telcos and cable companies are hardly on their last legs. They are flush with cash and looting big time.
    They are just insatiable.....more money more power more monopoly.

    If you want to be able to download HD movies with IMAX sound features in less than 1 minute or play high level 3d or multirole gaming games with no lag time anywhere in the world anytime, that ain't cheap. So content do determine the kind of bandwidth.
    If only... in every part of the world except far east and singapore this is a dream.


    My colleagues and family in the US are all crazy for Google fiber and the amount of abuse they heap on comcast is amazing.
    Last edited by bolo121; 27 Feb 15, at 04:40.
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  9. #54
    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blademaster View Post

    If you want to be able to download HD movies with IMAX sound features in less than 1 minute or play high level 3d or multirole gaming games with no lag time anywhere in the world anytime, that ain't cheap. So content do determine the kind of bandwidth.
    We already pay for that. AT&T has four different levels of internet speed for you to choose from. You want fast downloads then choose Max Plus at $44.95. You want email and social networking then choose Pro at $29.95. That is how it should be. The end user pays for the bandwidth they use and not the content provider. If I don't want to download movies then fine but I don't want them to decide which content providers get to go on the super highway and which get to be stuck on the rural roads because they are smaller than a church mouse. Maybe that is the content provider I like.

    As far as infrastructure is concerned it is my impression that neither AT&T or Comcast aren't too interested into bringing their infrastructure up to world class levels. They seem more interested in milking their cash cows for now which is so very corporate.

    Frankly those two can mostly blame themselves for this. Does anybody really love those companies? Does anybody love doing business with them? How many have been screwed over by them? How many have only one choice in their region? How many trust today's current corporations to do what is good for society along with themselves instead of just themselves as they do now? PR wise they will suck on those responses.

    Last, I see the internet in the same vein as phone service. It wasn't in the beginning but it is now. It is almost a necessity like phone service, garbage service, power bill and your water bill. They made it that way willingly. How many could go back in time and conduct their business with just a phone and no internet? In short, the internet is today's phone service. They didn't create it but they have taken ownership and turned it into a utility.

    With this Comcast has threatened not to build their promised infrastructure. Really? By the way who is reviewing your application to merge with Time-Warner right now with the infrastructure a needed part of the deal? Verizon once blocked Google wallet and tried to do the same to Paypal. This won't be allowed. They won't be allowed to block tethering apps as Verizon once tried. AT&T won't be able to block video chat apps and Comcast can't block file sharing apps. All this reminds of the early days of railroad where each company used different gauges to thwart the others from using their tracks. Here the providers seem to be doing the same thing if it seems as though a customer is getting something for free or more to the point is it competition to my app or can they profit off it.

  10. #55
    Senior Contributor SteveDaPirate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blademaster View Post
    Nothing is free in life. One way or the other, we all have to pay for it. You want faster service? Then pay for the infrastructure that allows you to have faster service. Netflix wants to expand its subscriber base without paying for the means of doing it. It wants other companies to foot the bill and ride the coattails laughing all the way to the bank. Same thing with other content providers that demand an ever increasing usage of bandwidth that causes other content providers who do not need much bandwidth to suffer in the process but forces the costs on those content providers that do not need that extra bandwidth.

    If you want to be able to download HD movies with IMAX sound features in less than 1 minute or play high level 3d or multirole gaming games with no lag time anywhere in the world anytime, that ain't cheap. So content do determine the kind of bandwidth.
    Internet subscribers already pay for their bandwidth. When the major ISPs such as AT&T and Comcast are lobbying to prevent municipalities from building their own fiber networks, and Google Fiber is hugely popular where it is available, it is clear that people aren't satisfied with their internet service.

    Government isn't exactly renowned for being responsive and efficient, yet municipal broadband has started seeing huge growth because there is a public need that isn't being met by the market.

    Here in Kansas City, Google Fiber is hugely popular in the areas it has been built. Despite Comcast and AT&Ts assertions that nobody needs or wants gigabit speed internet. Google is proving them wrong, and in areas Google Fiber is expanding to, AT&T and Comcast are mysteriously raising speeds and lowering prices. Amazing what a little competition can do.

    The last thing I want to see is the big ISPs controlling what content users can get in addition to charging them for bandwidth. The market isn't diverse enough to offer real competition among ISPs, so regulation is required to keep them from acting like cartels.

  11. #56
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    market forces took a beating to regulation. This will now percolate down to other countries and internet 2.0 will be put back further.

    The only good thing i can see out of this is the ISP is not a police man for other interests. But as to getting faster speeds for cheaper, forget it. Hope you like what you have because it ain't going to get better any time soon.

    Its a continuation of the 2010 FCC policy which i cheered at the time. Don't think that way any more. There is always hope for 2020. Hopefully a more market friendly administration will be in charge.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 27 Feb 15, at 18:15.

  12. #57
    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Lose

    market forces took a beating to regulation. This will now percolate down to other countries and internet 2.0 will be put back further.

    The only good thing i can see out of this is the ISP is not a police man for other interests. But as to getting faster speeds for cheaper, forget it. Hope you like what you have because it ain't going to get better any time soon.

    Its a continuation of the 2010 FCC policy which i cheered at the time. Don't think that way any more. There is always hope for 2020. Hopefully a more market friendly administration will be in charge.
    The free market is equivalent to the Wild West where the guy with the bigger gun made the rules. No thanks. I don't trust corporations especially today's corporations.

    As for upgrades to faster speeds who cares. Right now I am more interested in AT&T making their cable internet more reliable and functioning. I have already been timed out on three sites as "server unavailable" in the last 10 minutes with WAB being one of them. Both AT&T and Comcast have a long way to go before moving to higher speeds namely some consistency. My Astound at home routinely goes offline at least a dozen times every single night speed be damned. That has been an ongoing problem for 10 years now.

    WAB becomes unavailable every night at 11:00 pm on the nose but that might be unique to WAB as other sites are fine.
    Last edited by tbm3fan; 27 Feb 15, at 22:04.

  13. #58
    Senior Contributor SteveDaPirate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Lose

    market forces took a beating to regulation. This will now percolate down to other countries and internet 2.0 will be put back further.

    The only good thing i can see out of this is the ISP is not a police man for other interests. But as to getting faster speeds for cheaper, forget it. Hope you like what you have because it ain't going to get better any time soon.

    Its a continuation of the 2010 FCC policy which i cheered at the time. Don't think that way any more. There is always hope for 2020. Hopefully a more market friendly administration will be in charge.
    I think the problem is that the market forces are insufficient. There is almost no competition, with most places in the country having only 2 choices among ISPs. As a result, prices have only a passing relationship to the cost to deliver the service, and customer service is abysmal.

    Instead of choosing the business that offers the best service at the best price. Customers are faced with Hobson's choice.

  14. #59
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    And it will continue because now there is less incentive to invest and build faster networks.

  15. #60
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    The free market is equivalent to the Wild West where the guy with the bigger gun made the rules. No thanks. I don't trust corporations especially today's corporations.
    That's what we had at the start of the internet. Govt was strictly hands off. Market did the rest. Ten years later the internet is a global phenomenon instead of an american one.

    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    As for upgrades to faster speeds who cares. Right now I am more interested in AT&T making their cable internet more reliable and functioning. I have already been timed out on three sites as "server unavailable" in the last 10 minutes with WAB being one of them. Both AT&T and Comcast have a long way to go before moving to higher speeds namely some consistency. My Astound at home routinely goes offline at least a dozen times every single night speed be damned. That has been an ongoing problem for 10 years now.

    WAB becomes unavailable every night at 11:00 pm on the nose but that might be unique to WAB as other sites are fine.
    Faster speeds means media take up using the net. this is actually one of the big sticking points and has been for over a decade now. google and content providers want their content to be seen worldwide. That content can only be so complex or pipes start to choke. To get faster pipes means someone foots the bills. The telcos do not want to do that.

    cable is one of the few areas that developed much better than ADSL in the US. there was very little regulation around it.

    server unavailable has many reasons. maybe your isp's DNS server can't handle the load. I use Googl'e DNS beause its faster than my own ISP's. another possibility is line noise. There is an inverse relationship between the speed you sync at and stability. Slower connection is more stable. How slow can you go. Night time unfortunately is the right time for lots of electrical equipment to be on, generating more noise. More noise means does not take much to knock your modem off line. Rein, pein and shine.

    I've never had problems with WAB, its a pretty stable site. it would work even over dialup. All text

    My internet connection isn't too bad but can get flaky at times.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 27 Feb 15, at 23:58.

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