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  • #46
    The most pressing problem of gun related death is suicide by firearms, especially by teens. I think this is a problem that can be solved without getting into the politics which gets everybody's blood up. It seems to me that some laws requiring a good security locker for guns, and that children and teenagers should not be allowed unsupervised access to weapons, is not controversial and does not infringe on the Second.
    All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
    -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
      No, it would just mean the NRA would have to tweak its talking points.

      Contrary to the current 'blame the insane for mass shootings (and throw in some nasty politics to boot)' talking point, very few people convicted of mass shootings are mentally ill enough to be sectioned (and before you say it, we both know what this refers to, so lets not play pretend).



      Fox: Mass shootings are not on the uptick | Human Events

      There is something fundamentally disturbing about people who skwak about their 'rights' when it comes to weapons ownership advocating the imprisonment of people who are guilty of nothing except the remote possibility that they might commit a crime. There can be no greater loss of fundamental rights than deprivation of liberty, but as long as it means some folk get to keep that AK in the cupboard then tough luck for those mentally ill deemed 'dangerous'. It won't save even a miniscule fraction of the lives taken by guns every year, but the mentally ill are an easy target for a powerful & well motivated lobby.

      As for locking people up, you guys make the USSR look soft. If it was going to work it would have worked by now. Your murder rates are consistently 2-5 times higher than other western democracies. If the firearms component was similar to those nations the rate would be slightly higher than average at best.

      The problem is something that you don't want to face & that it is no longer possible to undo - that there are simply too many guns available in he US. Not just to people who are crazy or 'criminal' or the wrong demographic, to everybody. That is the main reason (though not the only one) why you have such a high murder rate. Mexican drug cartels, population density (my personal favourite BS excuse), ethnic diversity, 'entitled minorities', Democrats, 'an inherently violent society' and every other crap excuse thrown up are either marginal or total BS. You've created a problem you can't solve & which many of you can't even admit is a problem.

      It probably won't make you feel any better, but when it comes to keeping a lid on access to guns in places like Australia the strength of your example is sufficiently powerful to overcome the money & tactical assistance that the NRA & gun manufacturers offer the tiny minority of Australians who want to follow your path. I suspect the same is true for most of Western Europe & probably further afield.
      The NRA wouldn't have to change anything. They have been adamant for years about going after criminals. The reason many mass shooters have not been able to be convicted is that they shot themselves. Pretty much every one however HAD A HISTORY including a criminal record that pointed to what they would have done if given the chance. One guy was released from prison early. He got a gun, started a fire and murdered those that responded to the fire. Why? in his own words, "All I know how to do is kill"….and they let this man out on parole. The man who shot Giffords is a certifiable nut case with a long history of actions that warranted his commitment to an institution. Instead he was ignored and people were shot. You are worried about the rights of a nut case who tried to murder people. I am more concerned with the rights of the people he shot. Many such mentally ill people are out and about even though they can and will murder someone. That is just their disease and they are not first time offenders. Just one example the foster home I worked in has a paranoid schizophrenic. He is low functioning low IQ and emotionally developed to about 4 years old but he has a 14 year old body. Over a period of two years this 14 year old put 3 adults in the ER, tried to kill the family pets, broke several windows, doors, put holes in walls, and had an arrest record as long as your arm. Only after his 4th attempt to murder another human was he taken from the home and is now in basically a juvenile prison. As always his case worker is "looking out for his rights" and is trying to get him released into another foster home. The kid needs to go to a mental institution because it is just a matter of time before he is successful in killing someone. Unfortunately he will most likely be ignored and let loose on society when he is 18. he will in time fall into a rage listen to the voices in his head and try to kill again. Of that I have zero doubt. No one has advocated arbitrarily locking up people with mental illness…just the ones who are like the kid I know. 99% of the people who suffer from mental illness are harmless and thus should be able to live their lives as they see fit.

      We have 1.4 million gang members who are doing 48% of the violent crimes. Even now that the U.S. has the most guns in the hands of private citizens the U.S. still has a lower murder rate than the global average. Tackle the gangs and the U.S. murder rate would be cut in half. Clearly GANGS are the problem not the guns, but for people like you guns always get the blame and the people doing the crime get a pass…. and you want to talk about bull shit? Yeah right.
      Removing a single turd from the cesspool doesn't make any difference.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Triple C View Post
        The most pressing problem of gun related death is suicide by firearms, especially by teens. I think this is a problem that can be solved without getting into the politics which gets everybody's blood up. It seems to me that some laws requiring a good security locker for guns, and that children and teenagers should not be allowed unsupervised access to weapons, is not controversial and does not infringe on the Second.
        Why not simply spend some time with these teenagers and help them when they get depressed. Where I grew up teenagers always had access to guns but the only ones that died did so because of a car or cancer. BTW making people lock up their guns IS controversial.
        Removing a single turd from the cesspool doesn't make any difference.

        Comment


        • #49
          Bonehead,

          Sadness/grief is not depression. The former is a natural human response. The later is a different kettle of fish. Persistent feeling of despair, poor impulse control native to teenagers, and the means end one's own life is a very dangerous mix.

          WRT controversy, is it not common practice to lock up your own weapons when they are not in use? I am not arguing against conceal and carry where it is already legal. I am arguing that you don't leave loaded weapons unattended. Weapons you are not wearing should be stowed away securely. And teenagers need to be supervised when they handle a gun.

          I am not advocating that teenagers shouldn't be able to shoot or hunt; rather, they should do so under supervision. NRA has already argued that mentally ill people should not be allowed to have guns. Temporary limits on what teenagers can use without supervision does not seem harsh or illegal to me.

          There has been accidental discharge of guns by toddlers that result in fatalities; there has been suicides committed by teens undergoing depression that, in retrospect, were manageable given time. Requiring strict compliance to firearm safety rules and being careful around groups in high risk of suicide is common sense, and does not impact or affect the right to own firearms.
          Last edited by Triple C; 07 Feb 14,, 10:28.
          All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
          -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Triple C View Post
            Bonehead,
            .........WRT controversy, is it not common practice to lock up your own weapons when they are not in use? I am not arguing against conceal and carry where it is already legal. I am arguing that you don't leave loaded weapons unattended. Weapons you are not wearing should be stowed away securely...........
            You live alone.

            Someone is very angerly knocking at your door.

            Do you want a gun ready to go where you can reach it or would you rather have to go to the safe, unlock it, get the gun, load it, and get back to the door, hoping what's his face hasn't entered yet?

            Comment


            • #51
              If you think the danger to your person is so acute that you are likely to be attacked by determined assailants in your own home, nothing prevents you from wearing a weapon in your house or have it at arm's reach. I merely suggest that you don't leave it unattended in a place where toddlers and mentally disturbed youth can take it from you without your knowledge, which had occurred repeatedly in the past. That means a safe.
              Last edited by Triple C; 07 Feb 14,, 11:02. Reason: Clarity
              All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
              -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Triple C View Post
                If you think the danger to your person is so acute that you are likely to be attacked by determined assailants in your own home, nothing prevents you from wearing a weapon in your house or have it at arm's reach. I merely suggest that you don't leave it unattended in a place where toddlers and mentally disturbed youth can take it from you without your knowledge, which had occurred repeatedly in the past. That means a safe.
                Kids these days are damn smart. Unless you have some real old school safe with key... they gonna hack it. And you will have no idea.

                Besides, if I would be really upset that someone might endanger my family and that it might escalate to a gun fight (why else would I have it by my side?) I would preferably send the family to a safe, remote location.
                No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Triple C View Post
                  If you think the danger to your person is so acute that you are likely to be attacked by determined assailants in your own home, nothing prevents you from wearing a weapon in your house or have it at arm's reach........
                  There is another stand point to it.

                  As civilians, if we think it is dangerous for us to go someplace, we are suppose to avoid it. As it has one time been said about having a CHL, "Now that you can carry a gun, don't go any place you wouldn't go if your couldn't carry a gun.".

                  If one has the misfortune to having to shoot and perhaps kill someone, the opposing lawyer is going to try to show that on that day, said shooter got up, strapped on their gun, and intended to shoot his client.

                  So the defense to this is that one always carries, that on that fateful day, that day..........................................was no different than any other day.

                  My house, my castle; anyone there without my permission is trespassing and is in the wrong.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    We have a law requiring that a gun be locked here in Mass. The summary of the law is that you cannot leave a firearm (loaded or not) in a place where someone less than 18 can get to it. The police even hand out cable locks for guns so it isn't a burden on anyone.
                    When it was my wife and I at home, the law was ignored. Now that I have the fingers attached to two young children, the guns are locked. You don't need to tell me to do common sense stuff like this. I purchased a safe that allows me quick access, but no access for the kids to go where the gun used to sit by its lonesome.
                    I once used one of the giveaway cable locks on a hunting trip, and lost the key. The cable lasted 5 seconds with my gerber tool.
                    You can only make something just so safe, that (government approved and "issued") trigger lock WOULD work with my kids, not with someone who was intending to do harm.


                    And of course, the best prevention of accidents is training. My kids know that there are guns in the house. When they are curious, they ask me, I unload them, show them how to unload them and then supervise them playing with them. When my daughter saw a BB gun in the garage (chipmunk problems) she told me where it was, I asked if it was loaded and she said yes. When I asked her how she knew, she said "I don't really know if it is loaded or not, so it's loaded, right dad?" I don't worry about my kids with guns (all right, I worry about the 2 year old for now), but I worry about kids that are never exposed to them. THOSE kids are the ones who find guns (unattended at irresponsible parent's or gangbanger's tossed away) and not know what to do, or worse, will handle it not knowing the proper way to do so.

                    What we try to do is legislate common sense being mandatory - but it seems you can't fix stupid sometimes.
                    "Bother", said Poo, chambering another round.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by tuna View Post
                      ........... I don't worry about my kids with guns (all right, I worry about the 2 year old for now), but I worry about kids that are never exposed to them. THOSE kids are the ones who find guns (unattended at irresponsible parent's or gangbanger's tossed away) and not know what to do, or worse, will handle it not knowing the proper way to do so.
                      ............
                      Tell me about it!

                      I use to stay with a brother and his family (they are divorce now) and when I travel, it is with a sidearm and a rifle. But it didn't thrill me too much as that they would go off without locking up their house.

                      I was there over spring break once......and niece comes in with her friends. That didn't thrill me, either.

                      As things were, the rifle doesn't travel as a ready weapon.....but it can become one in about a minute. Further, it can be rendered operationally useless by pulling the bolt carrier if it's an AR. In any case, both weapons have trigger locks and the side arm is unloaded in those situations.

                      BUT.....I just wanted to clarify that since I am the only one in my place, out of the locker, if it is not for maintainance, a pistol will be loaded. If it is not, then it shouldn't be out of the locker.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        triple C,

                        It seems to me that some laws requiring a good security locker for guns, and that children and teenagers should not be allowed unsupervised access to weapons, is not controversial and does not infringe on the Second.
                        heh...the US couldn't even pass a limited bipartisan plan to expand background checks, let alone this.

                        my guess is that once personalized guns become more widespread we may HOPE to see some reduction in certain types of suicides and shootings.
                        There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          that idea sounds exactly like approach ancient romas had to their slaves.

                          even if 1 slave in the house revolts, all are killed.
                          "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" B. Franklin

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Triple C View Post
                            Bonehead,

                            Sadness/grief is not depression. The former is a natural human response. The later is a different kettle of fish. Persistent feeling of despair, poor impulse control native to teenagers, and the means end one's own life is a very dangerous mix.

                            WRT controversy, is it not common practice to lock up your own weapons when they are not in use? I am not arguing against conceal and carry where it is already legal. I am arguing that you don't leave loaded weapons unattended. Weapons you are not wearing should be stowed away securely. And teenagers need to be supervised when they handle a gun.

                            I am not advocating that teenagers shouldn't be able to shoot or hunt; rather, they should do so under supervision. NRA has already argued that mentally ill people should not be allowed to have guns. Temporary limits on what teenagers can use without supervision does not seem harsh or illegal to me.

                            There has been accidental discharge of guns by toddlers that result in fatalities; there has been suicides committed by teens undergoing depression that, in retrospect, were manageable given time. Requiring strict compliance to firearm safety rules and being careful around groups in high risk of suicide is common sense, and does not impact or affect the right to own firearms.
                            would these kids be alive today if guns they used were locked up?

                            15-year-old Boy Protects Sister, Shooting Home Invaders with Assault Rifle - YouTube
                            Good Kid Gun: 11-year-old Girl Armed with her own Loaded Pink Rifle Defends Herself and Home - YouTube
                            14yr Old Shoots Armed Home Intruder While Protecting Siblings - YouTube
                            Boy Uses Dad's AR-15 to Shoot Intruder - YouTube

                            the list goes on and on.
                            "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" B. Franklin

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by astralis View Post
                              my guess is that once personalized guns become more widespread we may HOPE to see some reduction in certain types of suicides and shootings.
                              Accidental shootings, yes.

                              Intentional shootings, be it suicide or homicide, I doubt there will be any effect. Many of the recently publicized mass shootings have been with legally owned guns that the owner passed the background check for.
                              I don't know the percentage of legally owned guns used for suicide, but teenagers will generally be considered old enough to have access to the weapon if they are using one already in the house, the so called smart gun won't save them, they'll have access to the both parts of the system, too.

                              One other point I'd like to make about the numbers of kids killed with guns, please check how a source defines "children". Some statistics show anyone under age 20, and lump all firearm related deaths together. While any death is tragic, you're not going to see a lot of spilled tears from society at large over a 19 year old gangbanger shot while trying to stab a cop. But calling this situation a child killed by a gun brings a vision of little Johnny shooting himself with a carelessly left firearm.
                              "Bother", said Poo, chambering another round.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by astralis View Post
                                triple C,



                                heh...the US couldn't even pass a limited bipartisan plan to expand background checks, let alone this.

                                my guess is that once personalized guns become more widespread we may HOPE to see some reduction in certain types of suicides and shootings.
                                Personalized guns are a pipe dream. Why should we see a reduction in suicides? these people want to die and for the most part will find a way to do it. If you want to prevent suicides you have to get the person to not want to kill themselves. Removing every dangerous item and hoping for the best is a recipe for failure.
                                Removing a single turd from the cesspool doesn't make any difference.

                                Comment

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